Topic: Odd timing issue, the closer to F the worse it runs.

[Jore]

I statically timed my bike a couple of days ago, the bike idled ok, but the revs where on the flat side, I finally managed to check the timing with a strobe light, well running at around 1100-1200 rpm the F mark was left to alignment notch both on 1-4 and 2-3, I managed to get the F mark to about 5-6 mm of the notch still on the left of it before the motor wouldn't run anymore. But as I got closer to the notch it idled worse, you had to give it more gas so it would continue revving. Originally the idle screws on the carbs where 3/4 turns out and it was acceptable, by the end I took them 1 1/4 turn out to have the engine barley running.

One more issue I had was that I never got a signal if I hooked up the strobe to the far right spark plug cable, but when I took the cap off it had a good blue spark, the other 3 did give out a signal.

I called it a day before doing something stupid out of frustration. What should I do next?

[flybox1]

With the strobe, 'F' mark is supposed to be ON the alignment notch.  2600rpm and it should be between the advance marks  I I

[Jore]

The mark is no where near on mine :/

[Jore]

Now that I remember, the alignment pin on the advancer is bent a bit, should it be straight?

[flybox1]

You have an alignment notch thru the window of your ignition plate.  With your strobe pickup on #4 plug wire,  Rotate the whole plare coockwise til, the F mark on the advancer unit aligns with the alignment notch. 
If youre not seeing this, snap and post a closeup of your ign plate

[Jore]

Thanks i'll take a couple of shots and post them.

[Jore]

I took the advancer off and the alignment pin has some play to it, not that much maybe a degree or two, I took pictures of it, hopes it's noticeable:




 

[flybox1]

Most will have some play.   it wears if the big nut is not tightened properly.

Your timing light should illuminate the F mark in alignment with the timing index mark (circled) at idle.
If it does not, you need to rotate the whole timing plate until it does.

[strynboen]

the springs are total gone..so it vill give erly ignision almost from idel..is the shaft bend?take a Photo vith the fingers off the plate..and turn it 180..its the timing shaft vho looks like it are bend..

[firebane]

the springs are total gone..so it vill give erly ignision almost from idel..is the shaft bend?take a Photo vith the fingers off the plate..and turn it 180..its the timing shaft vho looks like it are bend..

Agree I don't know if its the lighting or what but that main shaft looks slightly bent to the right looking at it from the picture.

[Jore]

Here's some pictures of my advancer, each one is turned 90° and a top view, I got a lead of a wrecker that has a 400 motor, I went to take a look and they actually have it, I supposed to stop by at around 6 to pick up the advancer from that one.

[flybox1]

Looks fine, except for the color.    Cant see the weights fee to check for wear, either. 
If someone painted or plated it, its quite possible the added thickness is causing issues with rotation of the cam, or the weights being able to swing.
I dont know that ive ever seen a black one with white markings 

[Jore]

some time ago it had some surface rust so I gave it a cleaning, I think maybe in vinegar, not sure at the moment and then oiled it and gave it a some heating that's the reason it's black, the markings are white because I use whiteout to be able to see them better. 

[flybox1]

OK.  I dont see anything else out of the ordinary.
Now, lets take a look at your timing plate.
Pictures please 

[Jore]

It has ford pinto condensers

[flybox1]

Great.  Original ND plate and points.
Gap the points and start it up.
Put your timing light pickup on #4 plug wire, and hit it with the light.
Rotate the whole round points plate to get it to line up with F mark and the timing index mark.
Do the same for the 2/3 points with the pickup on the #3 plug wire.

If you still have trouble, upload a vid to youtube and post the link here....

[Jore]

Picked up the other advancer unit, it was pretty cheap around 10 dollars. But when I compared it to mine the cam seems to be 180° off, so which one is the correct orientation? Also this new one is frozen solid.


The motor I got it from seems pretty much complete but the bike was hacked up, you can still see parts of the frame on it.

And by the vin number it appears to be a 75 just like mine.

[scottly]

well running at around 1100-1200 rpm the F mark was left to alignment notch both on 1-4 and 2-3, I managed to get the F mark to about 5-6 mm of the notch still on the left of it before the motor wouldn't run anymore. But as I got closer to the notch it idled worse, you had to give it more gas so it would continue revving.

If the F mark was to the left of the timing mark on the case, the timing was advanced, which would have caused a higher idle speed. If you adjusted the carb to reduce the speed to normal with the timing advanced, then the idle speed would drop as the timing was adjusted to the later normal timing.

[Jore]

well running at around 1100-1200 rpm the F mark was left to alignment notch both on 1-4 and 2-3, I managed to get the F mark to about 5-6 mm of the notch still on the left of it before the motor wouldn't run anymore. But as I got closer to the notch it idled worse, you had to give it more gas so it would continue revving.

If the F mark was to the left of the timing mark on the case, the timing was advanced, which would have caused a higher idle speed. If you adjusted the carb to reduce the speed to normal with the timing advanced, then the idle speed would drop as the timing was adjusted to the later normal timing.

Thanks Scottly, that explains a lot. For static timing I'm doing exactly this:

What I tried setting was the points gap, but I'm not entirely sure I'm doing it correctly. I set the advancer to the f mark, rotate the crank CW 90° and that's where I set the points to .014, is this correct?

[scottly]

Jore, yes, the point gap is set at the point of greatest opening, about 90 degrees past the the F mark. Then rotate the crankshaft 180 degrees and set the gap for the other cylinder pair. The static timing should only be used to get the engine running, and should be verified with the strobe. At idle speed the F mark should line up, and as RPM increases the F mark will move to the left until full advance is achieved at the l l marks. As the RPM returns to idle speed, the F mark should return to position. Once the timing is properly adjusted, set the carburetor idle speed and mixture settings.
Bomber, you have to set the gap first, before setting the opening point at the F mark.

[PeWe]

Point gap can be adjusted with a dwell meter when engine is idling. This is the easiest and most accurate method. Both points can be set equal. I have noticed that smaller gap is needed to make it possible to get 2-3 correct. The bakelit knob will wear and gap increase by time so smallet gap is a good start. 8 cyl engine, 23-24.5 degrees . I set both to 23-23.5.

My advancer has also a play. I've checked it with pistons at true TDC (verified with both piston stop and when head was off). "T" (and "F) will be correct if I set it in max counterclockwise position. I have also made a new mark in case, 2-3 mm after the original mark wich will match TDC when advance unit is in its max clockwise position. I adjsut cam and ignition correct. Cam can differ a few degrees but not the ignition.

[Jore]

Thanks for the advice guys, after inspecting both advancers, the new one is still frozen after an overnight soak in penetrating oil but the springs seem stiffer than the ones I had so I swapped them out and will try again, I'll set timing statically at first and then give it a go with the strobe.

I do have a dwell meter and I've played around with it but I'm not sure on how should I adjust the points with it.

[eigenvector]

I might be way out of line here - but are you certain you haven't swapped the 1-4 with the 2-3 plugs?  It can be very easy to do - and believe it or not the bike will run with plugs swapped, incredibly badly.  It will also do what you're seeing - the worse the timing the better it runs.

Food for thought.
You really shouldn't have to mess with the timing that much - these bikes aren't that fiddly.  Points and condensers require maintenance, but they're also perfectly reliable.

[Jore]

I might be way out of line here - but are you certain you haven't swapped the 1-4 with the 2-3 plugs?  It can be very easy to do - and believe it or not the bike will run with plugs swapped, incredibly badly.  It will also do what you're seeing - the worse the timing the better it runs.

Food for thought.
You really shouldn't have to mess with the timing that much - these bikes aren't that fiddly.  Points and condensers require maintenance, but they're also perfectly reliable.

1-4 are connected to the right coil, 2-3 to the left, but the cables on them are on the short side so it's practically impossible to swap them

[eigenvector]

I understand - I had to say it, you wouldn't be the first person to do that.

How about the blue and yellow wires - those also get swapped.

Anyway - not trying to side track you or otherwise, just offering small stuff that won't cost you anything other than a sheepish look.