Author Topic: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings  (Read 2172 times)

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Offline Xcmandan

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Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« on: April 20, 2017, 10:10:22 AM »
Is it absolutely necessary to plasti gauge to fit new bearings??? Or can I just get new ones and install them? I know pictures can't answer this but just showing what bearings I'm talking about.
Thanks

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 07:07:06 PM »
Plastigage, or do it with ID/OD measuring micrometers.
Plastigage is cheap and accurate. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline JoeCooley

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2017, 07:42:47 PM »
Have the journals on the crank been measured? If it has very little wear you may be able to get away with std bearings. Verifying with plastigage is always good insurance.
Joe in San Diego - Quick Cyles
78 CB750K 836cc Highway Racer - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,162264.0.html

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Offline Xcmandan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2017, 10:55:35 AM »
Thanks. No I haven't measured the journals yet. I have a standard micrometer. I'll measure it tomorrow

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Offline 754

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 11:09:33 AM »
Good engine building takes time and careful measuring and assembly...
Do you want a good one? Do you want to know what you got ? Do you want to know if its at the ragged edge of needing replacement ?...or that it should be good for years of more miles.
 The choice is your.....
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Xcmandan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2017, 11:22:20 AM »
754 thanks Bro. Yes I want years of use out of this bike. It's my first build. You guys and my manuals and youtube are my only sources of knowledge.

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2017, 11:30:45 AM »
My take is measure AND then Plastigauge to backup your measurements.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Xcmandan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2017, 04:19:30 PM »
I'm amazed at all the knowledge in you guys. Thanks!!

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 06:46:07 PM »
754 thanks Bro. Yes I want years of use out of this bike. It's my first build. You guys and my manuals and youtube are my only sources of knowledge.

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I'm not much at "sales", but...you might want to get my book? It takes you step-by-step thru the things you're doing...or about to do. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Xcmandan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 07:21:47 PM »
HondaMan, I've heard a lot about your book. I'm on a tight budget though and have 3 manuals as of now. Gobs of special tools and some I just needed in general. Spent a few hundred and have bought a single part yet. Also i have to have the case inspected due to finding it was cracked and welded prior to me buying it. Bad welds too.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 09:21:52 PM »
HondaMan, I've heard a lot about your book. I'm on a tight budget though and have 3 manuals as of now. Gobs of special tools and some I just needed in general. Spent a few hundred and have bought a single part yet. Also i have to have the case inspected due to finding it was cracked and welded prior to me buying it. Bad welds too.

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YEOW! That is a poor job!

I suspect you may find it cheaper to get another set of cases than to have that one fixed up and re-ground flat enough to stop leaking again. Reason I say this is: while I have [once] seen a repair there where someone milled down that area where your plate is now welded in, so as to fit a rubber gasket over the area in the hope of sealing it (which did sort of work, to his credit), when the chain became a little bit loose (and he was running the normal 18T front sprocket, close quarters) it chewed up his nice little rubber gasket and re-started the leaking problem. He later swapped cases, but in the 1970s these were mighty hard to come by! Today they are quite available: you can often buy another engine for $50-$150 that doesn't run, and use the cases and all the other stuff as spare parts.

For a "perfect swap" scenario, find an engine with the first 2 serial numbers the same as yours (That is, after the "CB750E-" part of the number). For example, the "..23--" series was the first of the injection-molded cases, which became the "..24--" and "..25--" series cases, which were the most accurate ones made. If yours starts with "..23--" you can use either the "..24--" or "..25--" as direct replacements, as the ball-bearing grooves will all be in the exact same places. If you have a "..24--" or "..25--" case, you can still use all the way 'back' to the "..23--" case IF the case has the wide support area with 2 grooves for the output shaft bearing for the countershaft (nearest where yours is now broken). There are even a few of the last of the K2 cases "..22--" that have both grooves, too. These will give you the least grief in swapping them.

If your engine is earlier than the K3, or even a very early K3 (which was an "Old Factory" K2 leftover), the web where yours is broken will be thinner than in the later cases. These early cases have only one groove in the countershaft bearing area, and a narrower face to hold the bearing: these cases use a 1-row ball bearing and a different output shaft from the later engines. The later ones have a 2-row ball bearing at this site, hence the major difference. The last of the K2 and some of the early K3 engines had 2 groves at this site to fit EITHER the 2-row OR the 1-row ball bearing, with their different shafts.

All this said...you can also swap the output shaft for the "other one" if it came to that, and all the other parts will fit fine. I have some dual-row output shafts around here somewhere, from engines that otherwise died or were modified to use the 1-row bearing shaft, for racing purposes (it saves some extra HP at heavy throttle settings and high speeds).

If your engine is the 1975 "F0" or later, you will need cases as follows: for F0, you need F0 cases, sorry...for F1 you can use F1 or K7 cases with no troubles. For K7 or K8 you can use K7 cases: K8 cases will usually have fussier setup issues with the spacing on the mainshaft's bearing on the side opposite the clutch, so that can be tough for a newbie to have to live thru? For F2/3, use the black F2/3 cases, and those interchange  fine. I have also successfully put F2 into K7 cases, with nothing more than some crankshaft bearing size changes.

Beware when buying cases: ask to see photos of the very same area where yours is crashed. There's lots of cracked and broken ones out there. Cracked can be fixed, broken is hard to do so - as you're learning! :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 754

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 09:02:09 PM »
One case half looks like the piece is still there, easier to fix.
 The one with the thin plate is it the top half..? Might be able to supply a piece.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Xcmandan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2017, 11:06:19 PM »
Yes it is the top half of the crankcase.

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Offline PeWe

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 12:10:28 AM »
Drive chains of today are stronger. I snapped a DID 50HDS o-ring chain  for soon 30 years ago when gearing down from 5 to 3 + wot in around 120kmh. Main reason then was a sloppy chain. Case got only a scratch beside the sprocket. That's why I have the strongest golden X-ring chain I could find when restoring the bike 2013.
Broken cases due to crappy chains or in combination with leaking battery.
My chain in today do not stretch as the o-ring chains from the 80's
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Xcmandan

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 07:16:21 AM »
HondaMan, I've heard a lot about your book. I'm on a tight budget though and have 3 manuals as of now. Gobs of special tools and some I just needed in general. Spent a few hundred and have bought a single part yet. Also i have to have the case inspected due to finding it was cracked and welded prior to me buying it. Bad welds too.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



YEOW! That is a poor job!

I suspect you may find it cheaper to get another set of cases than to have that one fixed up and re-ground flat enough to stop leaking again. Reason I say this is: while I have [once] seen a repair there where someone milled down that area where your plate is now welded in, so as to fit a rubber gasket over the area in the hope of sealing it (which did sort of work, to his credit), when the chain became a little bit loose (and he was running the normal 18T front sprocket, close quarters) it chewed up his nice little rubber gasket and re-started the leaking problem. He later swapped cases, but in the 1970s these were mighty hard to come by! Today they are quite available: you can often buy another engine for $50-$150 that doesn't run, and use the cases and all the other stuff as spare parts.

For a "perfect swap" scenario, find an engine with the first 2 serial numbers the same as yours (That is, after the "CB750E-" part of the number). For example, the "..23--" series was the first of the injection-molded cases, which became the "..24--" and "..25--" series cases, which were the most accurate ones made. If yours starts with "..23--" you can use either the "..24--" or "..25--" as direct replacements, as the ball-bearing grooves will all be in the exact same places. If you have a "..24--" or "..25--" case, you can still use all the way 'back' to the "..23--" case IF the case has the wide support area with 2 grooves for the output shaft bearing for the countershaft (nearest where yours is now broken). There are even a few of the last of the K2 cases "..22--" that have both grooves, too. These will give you the least grief in swapping them.

If your engine is earlier than the K3, or even a very early K3 (which was an "Old Factory" K2 leftover), the web where yours is broken will be thinner than in the later cases. These early cases have only one groove in the countershaft bearing area, and a narrower face to hold the bearing: these cases use a 1-row ball bearing and a different output shaft from the later engines. The later ones have a 2-row ball bearing at this site, hence the major difference. The last of the K2 and some of the early K3 engines had 2 groves at this site to fit EITHER the 2-row OR the 1-row ball bearing, with their different shafts.

All this said...you can also swap the output shaft for the "other one" if it came to that, and all the other parts will fit fine. I have some dual-row output shafts around here somewhere, from engines that otherwise died or were modified to use the 1-row bearing shaft, for racing purposes (it saves some extra HP at heavy throttle settings and high speeds).

If your engine is the 1975 "F0" or later, you will need cases as follows: for F0, you need F0 cases, sorry...for F1 you can use F1 or K7 cases with no troubles. For K7 or K8 you can use K7 cases: K8 cases will usually have fussier setup issues with the spacing on the mainshaft's bearing on the side opposite the clutch, so that can be tough for a newbie to have to live thru? For F2/3, use the black F2/3 cases, and those interchange  fine. I have also successfully put F2 into K7 cases, with nothing more than some crankshaft bearing size changes.

Beware when buying cases: ask to see photos of the very same area where yours is crashed. There's lots of cracked and broken ones out there. Cracked can be fixed, broken is hard to do so - as you're learning! :(
My engine is a 77 F2. Ser.num..2101133. I have located a 78 f engine online but don't know much about it. I may explore that Avenue this weekend. My cases are at a machine shop this week. I'm waiting on a estimate for welding/fixing the bad area. About the other engine....the guy wants $300 which I think is ridiculous. Going to tell him 100 tops. We'll see how that goes.

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Offline 754

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Re: Crank shafts and piston arm bearings
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 08:45:59 AM »
Before you tell him..late F motors seem to go for more than most Ks.
Not unusual to see 150 or more price on just the head. A desireable casting
You can always sell the head, get some cash back. 77/78 f cases are black.
 The tranny ratio are a bit different, but it works.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way