Author Topic: 1,2,3 rich  (Read 2674 times)

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rdub3017

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1,2,3 rich
« on: December 14, 2006, 06:24:46 PM »
I am tuning up my bike and doing the carb sync (76 550 F). Everything stock except open exhaust.  I did a bench sync when I had the carbs off, maybe not a good idea.
I can get the best readings when I do the vacuum sync at around 2000 rpm. The readings are more steady. I got them pretty darn close, considering fluctuations.
Before sync 1,2 were rich and 3,4 were good to almost lean. Now after syncing 4 looks good but 1,2,3 are rich. I was adjusting the carbs to the 2 carb (leaving that one alone). Seems that these carb slide adjustments would effect the richness? If they are all running rich do I need to adjust all of the slides to pull more/less but equal vacuum?

I also noticed that when I changed plugs they had 8's in there and I changed them back to the stock D7EA's.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 07:03:58 PM »
Actually you begin tuning carbs by making sure the ignition timing is perfect, the cam chain tension is correct and the valves are adjusted for the correct gap.
Then you clean or install a new air filter.
Would be nice to know the compression tests shows equal numbers across the bank.

The carbs are then vacuum sync'd to even numbers at the lowest RPM you can manage, ensuring, of course that you have eliminated any possibility of vacuum leaks between carb and head port.

Also tells us that all the slide needles are notched to the same position and all the jets, main and pilot, are equal orifice diameter in each of the four carbs and haven't been buggared.
Then tell us that all the idle air bleeds are adjusted equally (and at what setting) and that the emulsion tubes are squeaky clean.

You could even tell us what the carb setup numbers are stamped on the carbs.

Now tell us how you know you are running rich and at what throttle and load setting.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

rdub3017

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 10:46:07 AM »
Thanks TT. I did both a static timing and timing with a timing light. Cleaned the filter (foam uni style) but I have a stock paper one that I might throw in. New points, new plugs, cam chain is adjusted, valves have also been adjusted. I measured the float heights in the carbs, 22mm. When I took the carb bowls off and cleaned out the idle jets and the main jets looked good. The 1 and 2 needles I took out and they were the same, 2nd clip down from the top. The idle air screws are 1.5 turns out from lightly seated and I had cleaned all the vent tubes out of the carbs.
I did a plug chop at roughly mid-throttle, I just wanted to get an idea of where I was at. I could barely get the bike around the block.
I am not sure about the compression, but I am interested in what it is. And the boots are in pretty good shape but i am not sure if they are leeking.

The bike had a carb job done before I bought it. The bike used to run like a champ for about 3,000 miles or so. For some reason it started running crummy at higher rpms. The bike would run great when it was cold but got worse as it heated up. I am at work so I will have to get the carb numbers later, but I compared them to the stats for my bike and I beleive they are stock.

Thanks again!!!!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2006, 02:07:34 PM »
When I took the carb bowls off and cleaned out the idle jets and the main jets looked good.
Looked?  You should have #98 mains and #38 slows for a CB550F with 069A carbs.  However, unless you know the carb's history, the only way to tell if the metering orifice hasn't been drilled or altered by agressive cleaning, is to measure them.

The 1 and 2 needles I took out and they were the same, 2nd clip down from the top.

The 069A setup of 2nd groove from top IS correct for the stock air filter and exhaust backpressure charateristic.  Altering either of the latter may well require a different groove, or even a different needle profile.

The idle air screws are 1.5 turns out from lightly seated.

This is the stock setting +/- 1/2 turn for the stock air filter and exhaust backpressure characteristics.

and I had cleaned all the vent tubes out of the carbs.

That's good.  But, I asked about the emulsion tubes.  These are tubes with cross drilled holes that live behind the main jets in the carbs.  They are often overlooked and ignored by those not intimately familiar with these carbs.  The slide needles insert into these tubes and the cross drilled holes mix air with the fuel before the needle allows it entry into the carb throat.  If the emulsion tube holes are plugged, the slide needle mixtures become too rich as well as WOT.

I did a plug chop at roughly mid-throttle, I just wanted to get an idea of where I was at. I could barely get the bike around the block.

This is an okay start, but not exceedingly informative.  The plugs may have sooted up from idling on a very rich mixture with the slows/air bleed setting.  The needles may be too rich as well.  Or, perhaps you didn't hold the throtle steady long enough or at an engine temp that would clean ojf the plug deposits from idling.  Then there is the question of what part of the spark plug you were reading.  (You could be an expert, for all I know.)

I am not sure about the compression, but I am interested in what it is. And the boots are in pretty good shape but i am not sure if they are leeking.

Intake runner leaks will seriously hinder carb tuning efforts.

The bike had a carb job done before I bought it.

This could be wounderfull news... or evidence of serious meddling with carb internals and installation of non-spec. or ill matched components.

The bike used to run like a champ for about 3,000 miles or so. For some reason it started running crummy at higher rpms.

Plugs fouling?

The bike would run great when it was cold but got worse as it heated up.

Well that IS a symptom of too rich a mixture.  But, other things can have that symptom, too.

Could you have over oiled the air filter?  Are all your choke butterflies opening fully?

Are you using D7EA plugs?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

rdub3017

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 12:03:05 PM »
Once again thanks. I am going off the basis that the bike used to run very well and the bike is supposed to have 13,000 original miles. I also have all the paperwork and maintenance records from the previous owner. (not that this means anything, nor is it a excuse to check all the previous stated issues)

I guess my main question now is....Is there a certain vacuum pressure that you are supposed to adjust to?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 03:34:24 PM »
I guess my main question now is....Is there a certain vacuum pressure that you are supposed to adjust to?

You mean during vacuum sync?
Not that I am aware of.  They must all be equal at each runner.  My guages have an adjustable damper valve on each guage to keep the needle from swinging wildly.  They still wiggle. But, only a couple pounds.  I alway check the calbration just before the adjustment using a mity vac and a 5 way manifold.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

kettlesd

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 05:21:52 PM »
One thing I should add in here, changes in sync do not change the MIXTURE of each carb, but only how much the slide is raised in each carb relative to one another - so each cylinder is drawing the same amount of air/fuel MIXTURE. Sync does not change air/fuel RATIO.

If it was rich before the sync, it will be rich after - which is why they carbs sync is only done after all the other bugs have been taken care of. Opening more vaccuum into a particular cylinder will only draw more of what was already a previously rich mixture - making it only APPEAR to be richer, by say, sooting the plugs faster.

Offline super pasty white guy

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 06:03:31 PM »
Manual says adjust to ~ 20mm hg for carb sync.

Dave


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« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 06:09:48 PM by super pasty white guy »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 06:40:51 PM »
Not sure I agree with that.  But, then I may have misunderstood your intent.

At any given RPM all the cylinders are drawing the same volume of air, assuming the mechanical integrity of each cylinder is the same.

The carb's slides offer resistance to this volume of air and lowers the baro pressure at the fuel exit orifices in relation to volume passed.

If one and only one carb slide is unmatched, the engine RPM and volume drawn per cylinder is dominated by the run characteristics of the three other cylinders.  If the fourth's slide is more closed, higher vacuum results and the fuel is sucked harder out of the metering jets, resulting in a rich mixture for the loafing cylinder.  Conversely, if the loafing cylinder's slide to more open than the three dominant ones, the throat baro pressure is lower and the cylinder's mixture is too lean as less pressure differential is seen across the jet orifice boundary.

Of course, the assumtion here is that each carb has identical orifice diameters for each of the jets in operation at the given throttle position during synch.  
...Which is how it was designed and left the showroom floor in this configuration ~30 years ago.  Not all mechanics respect this.

Cheers,

One thing I should add in here, changes in sync do not change the MIXTURE of each carb, but only how much the slide is raised in each carb relative to one another - so each cylinder is drawing the same amount of air/fuel MIXTURE. Sync does not change air/fuel RATIO.

If it was rich before the sync, it will be rich after - which is why they carbs sync is only done after all the other bugs have been taken care of. Opening more vaccuum into a particular cylinder will only draw more of what was already a previously rich mixture - making it only APPEAR to be richer, by say, sooting the plugs faster.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

kettlesd

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 07:01:55 PM »
Ok, I kinda have to disagree just a bit. I understand what you are saying.  But under that logic...... when you raise the slides by twisting the throttle you lower the vaccuum (larger opening), thus allowing the engine to suck LESS gas, resulting in a leaner mixture????????

Carbs don't work by sucking gas out a jet by way of engine vaccuum directly. Engine vaccuum draws a given volume of air through a tube (the carb body). The carb body is restricted in the center by shape, and by the slide. In order for this volume of air to squeeze through this opening it necessarily speeds up, which lowers its pressure (Bernouli's principle of aerodynamics). Its this drop in pressure over the jet nozzle which draws fuel up from the bowl. More fuel atomized into the airstream increases rpm, which increases the airflow, which in turn draws more fuel.........

So more fuel is only drawn up by more airflow, maintaining the fuel/air ratio...... am i wrong in this?? It would seem to me that by having a carb out of sync can not in itself make a cylinder richer or leaner, but would only mean that a given cylinder is underproducing or overproducing power in relation to the others.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 11:18:06 PM »
Ok, I kinda have to disagree just a bit. I understand what you are saying.  But under that logic...... when you raise the slides by twisting the throttle you lower the vaccuum (larger opening), thus allowing the engine to suck LESS gas, resulting in a leaner mixture????????

That is exactly right... until the air velocity increases to lower the pressure and draw more fuel through the jet orifice.  Fuel is pushed through the orifice by the outside baro pressure only when the carb throat pressure falls.  Watch your vacuum gauge when you crack the throttle open.  The vacuum level rises closer to the outside baro pressure.  This is why carbs are often fitted with and accelerator pumps to enrich the mixture for engine pickup.  These old carbs are tuned at idle with an over rich mixture (and bonus fuel in the emulsion tube reservoirs) to provide reasonable pickup when cracking the throttle.  It is also the reason they are no longer used on modern vehicles as they cannot achieve the low hydrocarbon emissions at idle mandated by today's emission standards.  When these non-accelerator pump carbs are properly tuned, you cannot snap the throttle open from idle position and get engine pickup.

Carbs don't work by sucking gas out a jet by way of engine vaccuum directly.

Of course they do.  That's why blocking off the intake with a choke butterfly enriches the mixture.  More vacuum is created in the carb throat.  And, the outside baro pressure pushes more fuel through the active jet orifice due to the larger pressure differential.  The carb bowls are vented for a good reason.  It is the pressure on the surface area of the fuel in the bowls that pushes the fuel through the jet orifices.  But, only when the opposite end of the jet is experiencing lower relative pressure.  The more the pressure differential, the more fuel flows through it.

Engine vaccuum draws a given volume of air through a tube (the carb body). The carb body is restricted in the center by shape, and by the slide. In order for this volume of air to squeeze through this opening it necessarily speeds up, which lowers its pressure (Bernouli's principle of aerodynamics). Its this drop in pressure over the jet nozzle which draws fuel up from the bowl. More fuel atomized into the airstream increases rpm, which increases the airflow, which in turn draws more fuel.  The vacuum of the engine created on the intake stroke is what causes velocity but only when the carb slide is raised.

I was with you until that last sentence.  Raising the slide also raises the baro pressure in the carb throat reducing fuel jet orifice flow until the engine picks up revolutions, then velocity through the venturi increases.  You may be wrestling with transitional behavior vs static or stabilized speed behavior.

So more fuel is only drawn up by more airflow, maintaining the fuel/air ratio...... am i wrong in this??

No, not necessarily.   However, carb bore pressures are not ONLY governed by air velocity.  What we have here is four independent firing cylinders connected by a common crankshaft.  Try to imagine the crank driven by external means with none of the cylinders actually firing.   All the carburetors will still deliver an air fuel ratio.  Engine vacuum is still being created in direct proportion to the crank RPM up to the limits of volumetric efficiency.  When the carb slides are nearly closed, vacuum will be the highest in the intake runner and go higher as the crank speed increases.  Air flow is very low in this regime, however the mixture ratio will go much more toward rich as the differential pressure across the jet orifice increases.  When you suck on a straw in your beverage, don't you get more fluid when you suck harder?  Bernoulli's principle doesn't apply to the straw case.

Open the slides and carb vacuum will diminish as the intake valve face is now more easily connected to the outside atmosphere with less of a barrier for equalized pressure.  However, the velocity of the air will also increase the pressure differential seen by the jet orifice.  The fuel RATIO equation is complicated by the slide needle taper which also allows more fuel to pass relative to throttle slide/needle position.  However, at any given throttle position, the faster the engine is spun, the deeper the differential pressure is generated, and the higher volume of fuel will be delivered to the cylinders.  It's combinatorial, engine vacuum and its effects on air velocity.

You may have noted that a lot of people need jetting changes when they simply change the intake filtration.  Same carbs, same engine volumetric efficiency.  The engine does not create any more velocity through the carbs at 1K or 2k rpm than it did before the filter change.  However, the intake channel restriction DID change.  As well as, the depth of the baro pressure in the carb throats.  Therefore, jet orifice sizes need to be changed to compensate for the loss of vacuum now present in the carb throats.  Generally speaking, the less restrictive the air intake, the larger the jet orifices for the same RPMs as before the filter change.  The actual flow through the larger jets ought to be exactly the same as the original jets with the original air filter, at least for RPMs below WOT.

Cheers,






Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

kettlesd

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 06:00:45 AM »



Engine vaccuum draws a given volume of air through a tube (the carb body). The carb body is restricted in the center by shape, and by the slide. In order for this volume of air to squeeze through this opening it necessarily speeds up, which lowers its pressure (Bernouli's principle of aerodynamics). Its this drop in pressure over the jet nozzle which draws fuel up from the bowl. More fuel atomized into the airstream increases rpm, which increases the airflow, which in turn draws more fuel.  The vacuum of the engine created on the intake stroke is what causes velocity but only when the carb slide is raised.

I was with you until that last sentence.  Raising the slide also raises the baro pressure in the carb throat reducing fuel jet orifice flow until the engine picks up revolutions, then velocity through the venturi increases.  You may be wrestling with transitional behavior vs static or stabilized speed behavior.





Quote
Thanks TwoTired, But i never actually said that last sentence. It was nowhere in my posts!! Where did that sentence come from? Of course the only way to have air velocity through the carbs is by the engine turning at ANY time!!

This is all great, and you do a great job of putting things into words. I hope im not coming across as argumentative, because Im not really intending to! I also see that we are debating the same side of the coin on a lot of points!! :D  I do understand now how being out of sync can affect the mixture, but not for the reason you stated.

In a running engine under normal conditions, I still maintain that fuel is NOT drawn directly through the jets by engine vaccuum. Of course it does somewhat when you close the choke - never argued that. Because air follows the path of least resistance, is then HAS to draw fuel from the bowls directly when the venturi is restricted by choke - because it is trying to draw air through the carb vents. Plug those vents & and the carb mouths completely and see how much fuel you get - not much! When you change filtration systems you are in effect lessening or increasing the air restriction - the same as if you had opened/closed the choke. Same deal. Never argued. But as soon as the the restriction is ceased by opening the choke butterflies again, airflow/vacuum is again going to follow the path of least resistance - namely throught he carb venturi. And we both agree on how the pressure drop in airlflow over the jet nozzle draws fuel, so enough of that.

However, in an engine with sync issues these do not come into play, now do they? The choke, air filter settings are the same in all four cylinders. The rpm is the same in all four cylinders, drawing the same volume of air in all four cylinders (hopefully anyway - within a fraction of one another, depending on engine condition). The only difference in sync is that the slide is higher/lower in relation to the other carbs. On a carb that is out of sync by say, having the slide set too low. The airlflow through that carb must speed up even more as it is passing through a narrower passage, lowering its pressure even more - thus drawing more fuel (and enrichening the mixture because the volume of air has not changed - only its velocity).

If it wasnt for Bernoulli these machines wouldnt run!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2006, 10:12:49 AM »
Quote
Thanks TwoTired, But i never actually said that last sentence. It was nowhere in my posts!! Where did that sentence come from?

Arg.  Sorry about that.  It was one of my own incomplete throught streams cut and pasted from another (deleted) section of my response.  Poor writing style, distractions and incomplete profreading, I suppose. ::)

Anyway, I think we agree on how the carbs work.  The minor nit I was initially trying to correct (poorly) was the statement about air/fuel ratio with out-of-sync carbs.  Changing the carb slide position with a constant volume of air passing through the carbs, I believe, does change the air/fuel ratio due to the differences in baro pressure at the exit of the jet orifice in the carb bore, whether they be from velocity or channel flow restriction.  The A/F ratio is based on volumetric factors.  And, all cylinders are drawing the same volume of air at any given RPM, regardless of the actual velocity past the venturi.  I think even your own recent arguments support this.

Cheers,

One thing I should add in here, changes in sync do not change the MIXTURE of each carb, but only how much the slide is raised in each carb relative to one another - so each cylinder is drawing the same amount of air/fuel MIXTURE. Sync does not change air/fuel RATIO.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

rdub3017

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Re: 1,2,3 rich
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 06:22:04 PM »
Thanks alot guys!! This is what I was figuring. When I cleaned the carbs the 3 and 4 slides were higher than 1 and 2, 4 slightly higher than 3. I did the the bench sync and put them all equal.
After that the bike was running rich on 1 and 2. I am thinking that lowering the 3 and 4 slides created more airflow over the 1 and 2 jets making it a richer mix??? I don't have a compression gauge yet so I am not sure what the cylinders compressions are, nor am I 100% about the seals of the boots on the carbs(although they look real good). Maybe syncing in the past they raised 3 and 4 slides to compensate for vacuum differences in the cylinders making an even mixture across the cylinders.

This bike used to scream until I started running into a "rich" condition. It would run great cold, but not so good when warm and at higher rpms. After messing with the slides is when the bike became way rich on 1 and 2 and I can't ride it around the block.

Once again thanks for all of your insight!!!!!