Topic: Will your bike be banned?

[74cb750]

Just a thought while sitting here after reading some stories about automotive bans in inner cities....
Will our old bikes someday be banned in certain areas?

I know when I drive my S2 or KH500 and haven't gotten the right fuel/oil mixture resulting in excessive smoke or
filled the oiltank with old 2cycle oil I had lying around instead of the newer "smokeless" 2cycle oil, some
politically correct Vermonter or tourist will complain to me about being behind me and having to breathe 
that "nasty polluting smoke". etc etc

PS. my son's cb550 also smokes a bit as it needs new rings (groan, a major job that I really don't want to tackle right now)   
michel

[cameronda]

My waterbottle, when I crack it open
Leaves a smoke screen

[vfourfreak]

any expression of individuality is likely to be banned in the future Michel. Governmental control is the watch word(s) for the future.

And I'm no conspiracy theorist.

Kev

[Lostboy Steve]

I agree with vfour. I used to get harassed in my rx7 for blowing flames out the tails in between shifts. Sorry fellas that's the nature of the rotary.
I hate being behind two strokes on the trails, but on the street, I welcome it.


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[carnivorous chicken]

any expression of individuality is likely to be banned in the future Michel. Governmental control is the watch word(s) for the future.

And I'm no conspiracy theorist.

Kev

I don't think most governments are trying to "ban individuality" and I think that's a bit hyperbolic, but what do I know.

The percentage of people who actually ride vintage bikes is tiny. It's a drop in the bucket. In Phoenix and Tucson, up until 5 years ago or so if you had a post-'68 bike you had to take it through emissions. My 350F always passed, but my 160 didn't, so I got collector's insurance (more expensive, limited miles per year, but no emissions). But pre-'68 bike always got a free pass. I just don't think old bikes are a big enough of an issue for many people to care about, at least more than just talking #$%* to someone riding an old two-smoker.

[vfourfreak]

any expression of individuality is likely to be banned in the future Michel. Governmental control is the watch word(s) for the future.

And I'm no conspiracy theorist.

Kev

I don't think most governments are trying to "ban individuality" and I think that's a bit hyperbolic, but what do I know.

I respect your opinion. But come live in the EU for a while and see . . . . we have 28 (soon to be 27) countries trying to homogenise everything, and that comes at a price.
I honestly believe control  is regarded by many governments as being more important than the fostering of liberty.

Im no looney, believe me, but fcuk it there are regulations that control every facet of one's life these days.

Kev

[FunJimmy]

Just a thought while sitting here after reading some stories about automotive bans in inner cities....
Will our old bikes someday be banned in certain areas?

I know when I drive my S2 or KH500 and haven't gotten the right fuel/oil mixture resulting in excessive smoke or
filled the oiltank with old 2cycle oil I had lying around instead of the newer "smokeless" 2cycle oil, some
politically correct Vermonter or tourist will complain to me about being behind me and having to breathe 
that "nasty polluting smoke". etc etc

PS. my son's cb550 also smokes a bit as it needs new rings (groan, a major job that I really don't want to tackle right now)   
michel

You can hide behind your "Rights & Freedoms" BS all day long but others have rights too. Sounds more to me that your just inconsiderate and a bit of a tight wad.

As a representative of the motorcycling community do your part to uphold a positive image. Fix the oil burning CB550 and invest in some new "smokeless" 2 cycle oil. How difficult is that? Same holds true of the POS oil burning F150 running around town. No reason worn out vehicles should be pumping crap into the atmosphere. Purchasing newer and/or fixing current vehicles is good for the economy as well as the environment.

BTW, just so you know. The Interceptor started burning oil last summer. It's off the road until I rebuild the top end. That will hopefully happen this year (if I ever get off my a$$). It's the right thing to do. Period.

[BomberMann650]

any expression of individuality is likely to be banned in the future Michel. Governmental control is the watch word(s) for the future.

And I'm no conspiracy theorist.

Kev

I don't think most governments are trying to "ban individuality" and I think that's a bit hyperbolic, but what do I know.

I respect your opinion. But come live in the EU for a while and see . . . . we have 28 (soon to be 27) countries trying to homogenise everything, and that comes at a price.
I honestly believe control  is regarded by many governments as being more important than the fostering of liberty.

Im no looney, believe me, but fcuk it there are regulations that control every facet of one's life these days.

Kev

I'm with Kev on this.

But it won't be the government to take our rights.

It will be the corporate mooks.

John Deere tractors has begun the litigative process of suing farmers.  "Why would they do that to their customer base?" You may wonder.
Well, it has to do with financial damages incurred by farmers who fix their own machines.
That's right. 
1)  Average farmer is not a licensed, authorized john deere repair service provider.
2)  no. 1 caused john deere corp to lose hundreds, often thousands of dollars in revenue.

Thats the entiretiey of the argument there.

I for one, call BULL SH!T.

Destroy the corporate money suckers, by any means necessary.

[vfourfreak]

Just a thought while sitting here after reading some stories about automotive bans in inner cities....
Will our old bikes someday be banned in certain areas?

I know when I drive my S2 or KH500 and haven't gotten the right fuel/oil mixture resulting in excessive smoke or
filled the oiltank with old 2cycle oil I had lying around instead of the newer "smokeless" 2cycle oil, some
politically correct Vermonter or tourist will complain to me about being behind me and having to breathe 
that "nasty polluting smoke". etc etc

PS. my son's cb550 also smokes a bit as it needs new rings (groan, a major job that I really don't want to tackle right now)   
michel

You can hide behind your "Rights & Freedoms" BS all day long but others have rights too. Sounds more to me that your just inconsiderate and a bit of a tight wad.

As a representative of the motorcycling community do your part to uphold a positive image. Fix the oil burning CB550 and invest in some new "smokeless" 2 cycle oil. How difficult is that? Same holds true of the POS oil burning F150 running around town. No reason worn out vehicles should be pumping crap into the atmosphere. Purchasing newer and/or fixing current vehicles is good for the economy as well as the environment.

BTW, just so you know. The Interceptor started burning oil last summer. It's off the road until I rebuild the top end. That will hopefully happen this year (if I ever get off my a$$). It's the right thing to do. Period.

FJ , Michel could and hopefully will do all you suggest. But it wont stop some bureaucrat pushing through a law anyway. One that restricts what you might normally call rights. Or freedom.

The verb ban is beautiful, being in antiquity equivalent to a curse.

Kev

[Lostboy Steve]

Just a thought while sitting here after reading some stories about automotive bans in inner cities....
Will our old bikes someday be banned in certain areas?

I know when I drive my S2 or KH500 and haven't gotten the right fuel/oil mixture resulting in excessive smoke or
filled the oiltank with old 2cycle oil I had lying around instead of the newer "smokeless" 2cycle oil, some
politically correct Vermonter or tourist will complain to me about being behind me and having to breathe 
that "nasty polluting smoke". etc etc

PS. my son's cb550 also smokes a bit as it needs new rings (groan, a major job that I really don't want to tackle right now)   
michel

You can hide behind your "Rights & Freedoms" BS all day long but others have rights too. Sounds more to me that your just inconsiderate and a bit of a tight wad.

As a representative of the motorcycling community do your part to uphold a positive image. Fix the oil burning CB550 and invest in some new "smokeless" 2 cycle oil. How difficult is that? Same holds true of the POS oil burning F150 running around town. No reason worn out vehicles should be pumping crap into the atmosphere. Purchasing newer and/or fixing current vehicles is good for the economy as well as the environment.

BTW, just so you know. The Interceptor started burning oil last summer. It's off the road until I rebuild the top end. That will hopefully happen this year (if I ever get off my a$$). It's the right thing to do. Period.

I call complete bull#$%* here on smokeless 2 stroke oil. I'm sure that even smokeless oil provides some sort of smoke. Some engines inherently smoke because they are designed to do so. A lot of engines will also puff out some black smoke during wot because they get rich, should we ban those too?

Newer rx8 still have an oil injection system on them... they may not smoke but they're burning oil.

Most modern vehicles have a pretty gross threshold as to how much oil loss is normal. Go drive a BMW 5000mi and see how your dipstick reads.


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[FunJimmy]

I'm with Kev on this.

But it won't be the government to take our rights.

It will be the corporate mooks.

John Deere tractors has begun the litigative process of suing farmers.  "Why would they do that to their customer base?" You may wonder.
Well, it has to do with financial damages incurred by farmers who fix their own machines.
That's right. 
1)  Average farmer is not a licensed, authorized john deere repair service provider.
2)  no. 1 caused john deere corp to lose hundreds, often thousands of dollars in revenue.

Thats the entiretiey of the argument there.

I for one, call BULL SH!T.

Destroy the corporate money suckers, by any means necessary.

Corporations are already taking away your rights. They have been for decades.

Unless there's a clause or language in the John Deere purchasing agreement, I'd think they don't have a leg to stand on. Maybe the farmers should file a counter suit arguing that the sh!tty quality requires constant attention from farmers to perform the promised task. That distraction impacts farmer profits and should be the basis for financial compensation.

[BomberMann650]

I'm with Kev on this.

But it won't be the government to take our rights.

It will be the corporate mooks.

John Deere tractors has begun the litigative process of suing farmers.  "Why would they do that to their customer base?" You may wonder.
Well, it has to do with financial damages incurred by farmers who fix their own machines.
That's right. 
1)  Average farmer is not a licensed, authorized john deere repair service provider.
2)  no. 1 caused john deere corp to lose hundreds, often thousands of dollars in revenue.

Thats the entiretiey of the argument there.

I for one, call BULL SH!T.

Destroy the corporate money suckers, by any means necessary.

Corporations are already taking away your rights. They have been for decades.

Unless there's a clause or language in the John Deere purchasing agreement, I'd think they don't have a leg to stand on. Maybe the farmers should file a counter suit arguing that the sh!tty quality requires constant attention from farmers to perform the promised task. That distraction impacts farmer profits and should be the basis for financial compensation.

Such is the argument.

I hope the courts side with the people on matters such as this.  It would be a hugely destructive legal precedent otherwise.

[TwoTired]

There is a movement in several states to pass legislation requiring companies to provide spares and documentation which allows third party or equipment owners to repair devices and products sold by that company.
It's broadly referred to as "Right to Repair".

Many companies including Apple and apparently John Deere.  Are using lobby groups and big business dollars to fight such legislation.

Seems the software companies have made it de rigeur to own and maintain software they essentially only rent to you on the premise of sales, and the hardware mfgs want the same protections.

In essence their stance is that they own the design, manufacture, intellectual, and repair "rights" same as the software manufacturer's have with their products.

Will be interesting for the future, when you cannot work on your bike because you do not own the design and mfg rights and all spares must be sourced by the original MFG... if they chose to supply them and at whatever price they define.  Aftermarket parts will have to be licensed, of course, to pay the royalties owed.

Haven't you noticed?  The entire consumer model trend is shifting from "buy to own" to a "pay as you go" business model, as it fosters within brand income streams.

So, be careful placing your "brand loyalty".  It may incur ongoing costs.

[Lostboy Steve]

There is a movement in several states to pass legislation requiring companies to provide spares and documentation which allows third party or equipment owners to repair devices and products sold by that company.
It's broadly referred to as "Right to Repair".

Many companies including Apple and apparently John Deere.  Are using lobby groups and big business dollars to fight such legislation.

Seems the software companies have made it de rigeur to own and maintain software they essentially only rent to you on the premise of sales, and the hardware mfgs want the same protections.

In essence their stance is that they own the design, manufacture, intellectual, and repair "rights" same as the software manufacturer's have with their products.

Will be interesting for the future, when you cannot work on your bike because you do not own the design and mfg rights and all spares must be sourced by the original MFG... if they chose to supply them and at whatever price they define.  Aftermarket parts will have to be licensed, of course, to pay the royalties owed.

Haven't you noticed?  The entire consumer model trend is shifting from "buy to own" to a "pay as you go" business model, as it fosters within brand income streams.

So, be careful placing your "brand loyalty".  It may incur ongoing costs.

Yes, and I'll add that it also makes it nearly impossible to stray from said brand. I just went through this with the very phone that I type this on which I've had for a little over 2 years and continue to use despite apples behest for an upgrade.

I for one am happy to ride vintage.


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[flatlander]

funny how this went from the OP which his about banning vehicles in certain areas for environmental reasons, to freedom of expression and brand loyalty...

anyway, this ban thing is a real danger here in amsterdam. they established a zone where they already have banned some vehicles of a certain age. my ss50 from 1974 is affected and i won't be able to ride it in the city from 2018 onwards. at least not if it's registered as a moped because the ban is for mopeds that were first registered before 2011. so a relatively new 2-stroke is allowed, no matter how much smoke and noise it produces but my clean and quiet ss50 is banned. go figure.
now if i re-register it as a motorcycle, it's allowed. at least as long as they don't introduce a ban for older bikes, as well.

bloody hell, this is the stupidest bureaucratic thing they could ever have invented. it's like "look we are concerned about the environment and wellbeing of our citizens" - at the same time, it's a complete placebo action. pollution and annoyance does not come with age. there are other factors that they are just too lazy to define and check.

[Bailgang]

John Deere tractors has begun the litigative process of suing farmers.  "Why would they do that to their customer base?" You may wonder.
Well, it has to do with financial damages incurred by farmers who fix their own machines.
That's right. 
1)  Average farmer is not a licensed, authorized john deere repair service provider.
2)  no. 1 caused john deere corp to lose hundreds, often thousands of dollars in revenue.

Thats the entiretiey of the argument there.

I for one, call BULL SH!T.

Destroy the corporate money suckers, by any means necessary.

The farmers are getting pissed and this is probably why JD is going after them. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware

[carnivorous chicken]

Again, what do I know, but equating worrying about the state trying to get polluting vehicles and vehicles that run like #$%* off the road to governments or corporations "banning individuality" seems a bit much -- unless I suppose you think that riding an old motorcycle is the only outlet you have to express individuality? That's the hyperbole, IMHO.

And corporations such as John Deere have always tried to earn more by forcing customers to bring their machines to a certified shop. A lot (most?) of car dealerships lose or are willing to lose money on the sale of a car because to maintain the warranty service has to be done at a certified shop. That's not "banning individuality" -- that's a business model, it's decades old, like it or not. I'm not defending it, just pointing it out. 

[FunJimmy]

It appears that your version of individual rights is to demand everyone else adhere to your version of "right and wrong". Perhaps the other fellow doesn't have the means, resources, skills or time to bring their vehicle to the newest standard of "environmentally sensitive" that you desire. Some people simply are scraping by and drive/own whatever they can afford just to get to work, school or food. So climb down of that pedestal and have some compassion for others who may be less fortunate than you.

Don't get your knickers all knotted up over me, Cal. Set your cross hairs on the Clean Air Act of 1963 and the soon to be defunct EPA. I also take exception with your suggestion that people of lesser means should be allowed to run roughshod over the rest of society.

[FunJimmy]

Ya, your probably right. Who needs the Clean Air Act anyway?

Oh, BTW, until recently we had vehicle emission testing too. No pass, in plates.
Just that simple. Did people complain? Did they try to skirt testing and compliance? Of course. That doesn't mean it doesn't help.

[BomberMann650]

Thanks for considering the plight of the impoverished Calj.

I myself am in that boat. 
The notion that I could be penalized for doing what is necessary to keep my personal belongings functional - that scares the bejeezus outta me.

I'm already an outlaw (technically, in some areas) for living from a trailer under a certain square footage.  Makes me glad no one cares to investigate the criminality of where I make my bed here on the farm.  Yet it is a real problem others face daily, especially as "tiny houses" become more popular.  In addition to displaced families forcibly downsizing due to economic guillotenes.

Laws that force participation in consumer economy are a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Often under the guise that people will be safer, happier, more productive, etc.  The legislation is pushed thru into law.  But when you consider the implications of the law, it seems the only people who stand to benefit are the sponsors.  A private interest with connections and influence, as well as a driving greed to make bigger and more profitable sales. 
Not everyone needs a 2011 or newer vehicle.  With the astonishing volume of manufacturer safety recalls in the past 5-10 years.  Its a wonder that new car sales havent dropped dramatically.
But to legislate that someone with a 2010 or older vehicle be prohibited from entering certain zones.  That's simply bullsh!t, economic elitist utopian fantasy rhetoric.  I'll have none of it myself.

[BomberMann650]

Damnit CycleRanger that nearly made me cry.

Kinda wish my uncle was around to see what I'm making of his bike.

[eigenvector]

That Mother Jones photo of Manhattan is ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with the Clean Air Act, nor do I wish automotive emission controls be rolled back - but I really don't like distortions being used to bolster those type of arguments.  They don't need such distortions - the arguments stand on their own merits.
1)  Manhattan is still a pretty unhealthy place to live today
2)  Camera technology today is much better than it was 45 years ago
3)  Who knows when those photos were taken during the day and more importantly how they were processed afterwards.

The infinitesimal number of people riding 2 strokes in the US is not the reason why the air in Manhattan is still dirty as all get out.  The massive number of modern vehicles (less than 10 years old) is undoubtedly one of the reasons though.  So forget about the smokey 2-strokes and put your attention on the Accords, Hyundais, Fords, Chevys, Dodges, etc...

[seanbarney41]

That Mother Jones photo of Manhattan is ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with the Clean Air Act, nor do I wish automotive emission controls be rolled back - but I really don't like distortions being used to bolster those type of arguments.  They don't need such distortions - the arguments stand on their own merits.
1)  Manhattan is still a pretty unhealthy place to live today
2)  Camera technology today is much better than it was 45 years ago
3)  Who knows when those photos were taken during the day and more importantly how they were processed afterwards.

The infinitesimal number of people riding 2 strokes in the US is not the reason why the air in Manhattan is still dirty as all get out.  The massive number of modern vehicles (less than 10 years old) is undoubtedly one of the reasons though.  So forget about the smokey 2-strokes and put your attention on the Accords, Hyundais, Fords, Chevys, Dodges, etc...

first sensible post by this guy ever

[FunJimmy]

That Mother Jones photo of Manhattan is ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with the Clean Air Act, nor do I wish automotive emission controls be rolled back - but I really don't like distortions being used to bolster those type of arguments.  They don't need such distortions - the arguments stand on their own merits.
1)  Manhattan is still a pretty unhealthy place to live today
2)  Camera technology today is much better than it was 45 years ago
3)  Who knows when those photos were taken during the day and more importantly how they were processed afterwards.

The infinitesimal number of people riding 2 strokes in the US is not the reason why the air in Manhattan is still dirty as all get out.  The massive number of modern vehicles (less than 10 years old) is undoubtedly one of the reasons though.  So forget about the smokey 2-strokes and put your attention on the Accords, Hyundais, Fords, Chevys, Dodges, etc...

Of course a couple hundred or even a couple thousand 2 stroke motorcycles aren't going to wreak havoc on the worlds supply of breathable air. Let's be real. But it's an indisputable fact that air quality in all major North American cities has improved dramatically over the past 40 years while populations and vehicle traffic has grown exponentially. Do you believe that happened serendipitously?

Maybe the Manhattan air quality comparison picture doesn't realistically demonstrate the significant improvements we've realized over the last 4 decades but NASA has 10 years of satellite data to quantify it if you wish to know.



https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/new-nasa-images-highlight-us-air-quality-improvement/

[Lostboy Steve]

You can hide behind your "Rights & Freedoms" BS all day long but others have rights too. Sounds more to me that your just inconsiderate and a bit of a tight wad.

Same holds true of the POS oil burning F150 running around town. No reason worn out vehicles should be pumping crap into the atmosphere. Purchasing newer and/or fixing current vehicles is good for the economy as well as the environment.

It appears that your version of individual rights is to demand everyone else adhere to your version of "right and wrong". Perhaps the other fellow doesn't have the means, resources, skills or time to bring their vehicle to the newest standard of "environmentally sensitive" that you desire. Some people simply are scraping by and drive/own whatever they can afford just to get to work, school or food. So climb down of that pedestal and have some compassion for others who may be less fortunate than you.

As for the likelihood of municipalities banning vehicles based upon age and presumption of emissions, it's been proposed and implemented in many places. So the original premise of this thread is not only likely, but real.

I have numerous friends who scowl at me for driving a V8 from over 15 years ago because it itself premise that their flashy new Prius is so much more sensitive environmentally. The problem is: cradle to grave, electric vehicles suck for our environment. Period. There is no viable afterlife for their batteries, the embodied energy to manufacturer them is far higher than a 15 year old vehicle creates, and, like all new things, it has to be created (versus maintaining an existing machine).

But I'm not interested in an "environmental sensitivity" lesson from someone who operates a fossil fueled vehicle. Hypocrisy wins that argument.

Funny you mention electric vehicles. My best friend since grade school is a master BMW technician and he was just telling me a story about this. Just recently he went for a class at their national training center and he noticed a large pile of batteries out back by the dumpster. When he asked the instructor what the deal was with them, the response was, "no one knows what to do with the old batteries, one of them is leaking and has become an environmental hazard." So there's the proof to back up your argument Cal. Those electric vehicles are going to pile up and then what? You can't just crush them.


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