Topic: Cb500 hard shifting when hot :SOLVED!

[Deltarider]

I can tell you, with all due respect, as a retired vw/audi factory trained technician, I cannot imagine anyone suggesting putting used oil in an Audi engine. Lack of oil changes is what caused the noisey lifters in the first place.

This was communicated to me by the then just retired managing director of Castrol The Netherlands*. He had his used oil tested and the outcome of the lab was that it was in fact better than new because of the added soot. I know quite a few mecs that use used oil in their cars. Long time ago in Spain, I had to replace an O-ring of the oilpump. Did this in the workshop of a motordealer and thougt it wise to change the oil as it had been already in there for some 3000 km and - I confess - also to have the dealer make a few pesetas on selling new oil to me in return of his hospitality. The mec that overlooked what I was doing, asked me if he could have the old oil, this after sniffing and feeling it between finger and thumb. His conclusion: it's new. Donated him the oil that ended up in his Laverda.
The things I read here in this forum about oil, comes close to hysteria IMO.
* I posted about this before but for some reason cannot find the thread at the moment.

[Deltarider]

Calj, with all due respect but this is exactly what I've been doing for the past 30 years with mine. Look at it, feel it and sniff to detect an excess of gasoline. Some solder a chip on the dipstick that can detect acid. The paperfilter does the rest. I do not ride short distances where I can walk or cycle. May I show you my oilscreen that I inspected last year for the second time in it's life. It had not been out in some 50.000 - 60.000 kms. Nothing in it and in the pan no sludge whatsoever. The things I read here about oil... hysteria.

[Deltarider]

Oh, here it is. This was in 2008. And excuse me, I should have said valve rockers. And the following is about cars and not motorcycles.
A few months ago a man was interviewed in a Dutch consumers program on radio as well on tv. The man is fighting a 30 year crusade against what he describes as the international oilchangemaffia. He states that oilchanges are unnecessary and that worldwide a staggering € 200.000.000.000,- is wasted, not to mention the damage to the environment. He once shared the results of a test he did with his headoffice in the U.K. and was kindly requested to keep his mouth shut. What he did was this: in twenty years he NEVER changed the oil in his automobile, did 160.000 km. Then he had the oil tested in a lab and was very much suprised by the results. The oil was as good as new and because of the sootparticles was actually upgraded (for this reason owners of some new Audi models, that suffer from noisy valverockers, are advised to use secondhand oil!) Immediately after he went public, his view was supported by experts in the field, who themselves never ever change the oil. Btw, neither do mechanics but they do not want to be quoted.
Mr. de Groot's car now has done 350.000 km without changing the oil. Years ago he soldered a tiny chip on his oildipstick that can detect when the oil becomes acid. So far it didn't. Important however, he says, is to top up the oil when needed.

Also in Germany there is a growing number of people that never change the oil in their car. A German televisionprogram showed owners of Mercedes Benzes that had already covered 200.000 km without an oilchange and the owner of a Fiat Ducato never changed his since 1996. Their message is the same: just top up when necessary and that's it.

Oops, I almost forgot. Before he retired Mr. de Groot was the managing director of... Castrol (The Netherlands).

[Deltarider]

As I said, anecdotal crapola. Only testing equipment can accurately measure oil contents

Not necessary in most cases. You now (for the last 10 years or so) have special paper tissues that can detect if something is wrong with the oil. Commercial fleet oners like truck companies use them a lot and when in doubt they'll send the oil to a lab for further inspection. I have no experience with these paper tissues, but I'll see if I can lay my hand on them. I presented Mr. de Groots story just to have another sound heard in the oil debate. I must add, that although he didn't mention it, he must have had an extra large filter on his engine. That filter catches everything that can be a hazard. Smaller particles than the filter can trap are not much of a concern. They are kept in suspension, simply because that is what oil does. Now, everybody should know for him self how often he needs to change his oil. It depends very much on your riding. But the short intervals I read here sometimes, make me wonder. Can someone explain to me that in the official Honda service schedule for the CB650 the oilchange interval doubled from 3000 (CB500/550) to 6000 km? It's practically the same engine, only... the CB650 runs hotter. I myself ride only longer distances.

[Deltarider]

Whiteorbs, what a coincidence, today I've been at the clutch lifter of my CB500. Clutch lever was so hard to operate lately that it became painful, so I decided to have a look. I even suspected that maybe now it was my turn for a snapped pushrod, but the rod came out mint (132.000 kms+). Sprayed some teflon grease on it and put it back in again. Although it moved smoothly, now that I was there, I decided to disassemble the clutch lifter mechanism. In spite of not being greased for decades (I could never find a greasegun that fitted), it looked OK. Smeared some fresh lithium grease on it and reassembled it. The day after tomorrow I have time for a test ride.
If the clutch lever will still be hard to operate, there are 3 possibilities left:
1. Maybe clutchcable should not be routed through that frame opening where the coils sit. I can't remember what is correct and if routing underneath the frame tube is at all possible. Just can't remember how it originally was.
2. Clutch cable (now over 60.000 kms) is worn and should be replaced.
3. Maybe two years ago I made a mistake by 'lubing' the cable with WD-40, thinking WD-40 is different from oil products and that it could not be harmfull. I am not so sure now. Already then clutch lever was hard to operate and I decided to give WD-40 a chance, because I calculated the cable already had had its best time.
We'll see. I don't have a problem with the clutch itself and shifting gears, just the clutchlever is a pain. It seems you have another problem but I thought it useful to post my findings anyway.

[78whiteorbs]

"Special Paper Tissues" are testing equipment, Delta  I've used these same test strips and they are rather useful.

Somehow, somewhere, Americans were led to believe oil needed to be changed every 3,000 miles or your vehicle would explode. Its a lingering belief from days gone by. I never believed it then, and certainly don't now. Advancements in oil demonstrate to me, that new synthetic oils are far superior in virtually every application except where the motor and its application itself truly requires a blended oil.

Europe has far better standards on oil and fuel and the US would do well to mimic their regulations. Unfortunately each State here has some amount of discretion as to the formulation of the gas sold in their state, and oil is widely differentiated by vehicle brand and retailer. My cars are on a 25k mile interval, and my bikes a 10k mile interval. Simple as that. My daily rider bike has just short of 40k and will get serviced next Friday (its annual) and will see new customer-supplied full synthetic oil installed. And it still runs like a stabbed rat!

Thanks, yes my clutch is buttery smooth.
I readjusted it per hondamans post so the friction point is almost all the way out but have ti ride and test it now.. I do see how previously If I pulled the clutch lever in all the ti the bar that it did seem a little better so guessing the heat was making ut grabbier and wasnt full disengauging , but was enough to not stall the engine. I noticed when hot with the clutch in it didnt roll as easy in gear as when cool . Hopeful this makes it rideable for over 30 minutes now, fingers crossed-
Deltarider thanks for sharing

[HondaMan]

Whiteorbs, what a coincidence, today I've been at the clutch lifter of my CB500. Clutch lever was so hard to operate lately that it became painful, so I decided to have a look. I even suspected that maybe now it was my turn for a snapped pushrod, but the rod came out mint (132.000 kms+). Sprayed some teflon grease on it and put it back in again. Although it moved smoothly, now that I was there, I decided to disassemble the clutch lifter mechanism. In spite of not being greased for decades (I could never find a greasegun that fitted), it looked OK. Smeared some fresh lithium grease on it and reassembled it. The day after tomorrow I have time for a test ride.
If the clutch lever will still be hard to operate, there are 3 possibilities left:
1. Maybe clutchcable should not be routed through that frame opening where the coils sit. I can't remember what is correct and if routing underneath the frame tube is at all possible. Just can't remember how it originally was.
2. Clutch cable (now over 60.000 kms) is worn and should be replaced.
3. Maybe two years ago I made a mistake by 'lubing' the cable with WD-40, thinking WD-40 is different from oil products and that it could not be harmfull. I am not so sure now. Already then clutch lever was hard to operate and I decided to give WD-40 a chance, because I calculated the cable already had had its best time.
We'll see. I don't have a problem with the clutch itself and shifting gears, just the clutchlever is a pain. It seems you have another problem but I thought it useful to post my findings anyway.

Delta:
One thing I discovered about WD40 and 'used' cables is: it does a fine job of lifting the grit off the inside of the cable as it lubes, but it tends to then make it migrate (downhill) until it starts to jam the cable. I first discovered this on the old CB350 twin brake cables, which get a real workout on those bikes: if we oiled them with light oil (like 5w) they lasted and lasted, but those we did with WD40 would often jam or drag by the following year (when I had my shop), requiring their change. For that reason, I stopped using WD40 on cables, long ago. I am not sure of its properties, but I know it sure can clean grit from a cables sheath!

[Deltarider]

Thanks Hondaman. WD-40* is great stuff - I use it a lot - but it's no good for lubing Teflon lined cables. I used it as a last resort when the cable had already become harder to operate. Best thing is not to lube the cables at all. I'll do some more experimenting tomorrow, but the outcome will probably be to buy a new one. What puzzles me is that, once disconnected, it still moves smoothly. The quality of OEM is excellent. When I look at the details, it's hard to imagine it will ever snap. At the ends there is no sign of wear. In the photo's the predecessor that served 60.000 kms+.
*Tip: when a can of WD-40 seems empty there's actually still a lot in it. Make two holes in the bottom with a canopener and poor the WD-40 in a jar, so you can clean your bicycles with it. In the pic you can see there was enough in it to fill the jar to the top.

[HondaMan]

Thanks Hondaman. WD-40* is great stuff - I use it a lot - but it's no good for lubing Teflon lined cables. I used it as a last resort when the cable had already become harder to operate. Best thing is not to lube the cables at all. I'll do some more experimenting tomorrow, but the outcome will probably be to buy a new one. What puzzles me is that, once disconnected, it still moves smoothly. The quality of OEM is excellent. When I look at the details, it's hard to imagine it will ever snap. At the ends there is no sign of wear. In the photo's the predecessor that served 60.000 kms+.
*Tip: when a can of WD-40 seems empty there's actually still a lot in it. Make two holes in the bottom with a canopener and poor the WD-40 in a jar, so you can clean your bicycles with it. In the pic you can see there was enough in it to fill the jar to the top.

Don't you have a CB500 that is made after 1973? (Or, maybe I am thinking of someone else?). I heard from several riders that they have, for example, a CB500 SOHC4 made in 1975. This has me wondering: did the post-1973 versions of these CB500 bikes have the clutch lifter of the CB550?

[Deltarider]

Yep. I'll inform you in detail because I have all the paper Parts Lists on my desk. The Parts List of my CB500K2 (ED, F, G) was composed May 20th 1976. This model was marketed in some European countries (UK excluded) in 1976. It came with the same push rod (22850-323-000) the CB500K1 had and the CB500(K0) from 1017728 on. Earlier CB500(K0)s had 22850-292-020 so we can safely assume that already during the K0 the rod underwent modification. The socalled THREAD COMP., CLUTCH LIFTER (22810-323-000) is the same as on the CB500K1 and CB500(K0). But the CLUTCH ADJUSTER (22841-323-000) is different from the 22841-266-000 the CB500K1 and the CB500(K0) had. Even the K2 (A) you guys in the US had in 1973 still had that old adjuster. Now that you bring it up, these modifications could well explain why I never had problems, nor with the rod, nor with the adjuster that wasn't greased in the last 20 years.
BTW, the only CB500 that shared the right hand side clutch operation all CB550s had, was the CB500K3. This model is rare. Only some 4200 were ever assembled. It had exactly the same looks as the CB550K3 and was marketed in Germany and some Scandinavian countries in 1977-8. Why it ever existed? I don't know. Maybe Honda had still some 500 barrels and pistons on the shelf and/or that these Scandinavian countries had legislation that drew a line between 500cc and motors over 500cc, think: drivers license and/or insurance.
Maybe 'our' CB500K2 (ED, F, G) marketed on the European continent in 1976 was a similar story, as this model differed so much from the CB500K2 (A) that was already marketed in 1973 in the US. 'Our' K2 shared surprising many things with the CB550K2 that was marketed in in the US yhe same year (1976).
I'm always impressed how much you can reconstruct by comparing the Part Lists. http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/parts-list/parts-list-cb500

[PeWe]

Check the oil between the fingers is easy done and I'll do it more often.
 
My car oil felt really bad just before 15.000km and I changed oil direct.(Synthetic as it must have and always had) I'll check the oil before 10.000km next time. My car engine is a real oil killer when it contains less than 4L and a turbo making it hot, tweaking more hp and torque add some to it too. Short trips and many cold starts shorten the oil change interval. If using the oil too long time I'll feel hard particles in the oil too, carbonized oil. Typical for these engines Audi 1.8T. VW, SEAT has same . I have got the engine flushed twice with Bilstein engine flush to remove old sins due to long oil change interval

Same with my oil in my CB750. The synth oil I used felt really oily and huge difference compared with Castrol ActEvo mineral I used earlier during a break-in.

Anyway, when the additives in the oil have crashed, the oil start to feel more like water or diluted, not as thick and oily as new oil. Like fresh raw egg, that has a thickness that an old egg does not have, old egg float out almost like water.
If oil smell fuel, not good either.

Feel and smell indicates if its good or not.  I have seen mechanics doing that since I was a kid for many years ago, 1960's.

[HondaMan]

Yep. I'll inform you in detail because I have all the paper Parts Lists on my desk. The Parts List of my CB500K2 (ED, F, G) was composed May 20th 1976. This model was marketed in some European countries (UK excluded) in 1976. It came with the same push rod (22850-323-000) the CB500K1 had and the CB500(K0) from 1017728 on. Earlier CB500(K0)s had 22850-292-020 so we can safely assume that already during the K0 the rod underwent modification. The socalled THREAD COMP., CLUTCH LIFTER (22810-323-000) is the same as on the CB500K1 and CB500(K0). But the CLUTCH ADJUSTER (22841-323-000) is different from the 22841-266-000 the CB500K1 and the CB500(K0) had. Even the K2 (A) you guys in the US had in 1973 still had that old adjuster. Now that you bring it up, these modifications could well explain why I never had problems, nor with the rod, nor with the adjuster that wasn't greased in the last 20 years.
BTW, the only CB500 that shared the right hand side clutch operation all CB550s had, was the CB500K3. This model is rare. Only some 4200 were ever assembled. It had exactly the same looks as the CB550K3 and was marketed in Germany and some Scandinavian countries in 1977-8. Why it ever existed? I don't know. Maybe Honda had still some 500 barrels and pistons on the shelf and/or that these Scandinavian countries had legislation that drew a line between 500cc and motors over 500cc, think: drivers license and/or insurance.
Maybe 'our' CB500K2 (ED, F, G) marketed on the European continent in 1976 was a similar story, as this model differed so much from the CB500K2 (A) that was already marketed in 1973 in the US. 'Our' K2 shared surprising many things with the CB550K2 that was marketed in the US the same year.
I'm always impressed how much you can reconstruct by comparing the Part Lists. http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/parts-list/parts-list-cb500

Aha! So, the rumors ARE true! I'm not surprised: did you know that Honda made a CB250F for the Japanese riders, because they have a terrible fee to pay above 250cc for their bikes? Yet they wanted the SOHC4 badly, and it sold well despite its 17 BHP output. Every now and then one of the engines show up around here (swap meets): they appear to be exactly a CB350F with nothing but smaller pistons and sleeves. I would even trade out my own 350F engine for one of these, if I could find one and get it running to perfection, just for the "sewing machine effect" of having all those tiny pistons flying!

I first got wind of this from someone in Switzerland who wrote me and asked about adjusting the clutch on a CB500-4, and I gave the same description as above: it totally confused him (and me), because when he ended up sending me a picture of his (misassembled) cable mount on the engine, it was the 550 clutch system. I wrote back and insisted it must be a mixed-up engine, but he knew its lineage and the serial number clearly showed it to be CB500. That was in about 2009, I think? I've been curious ever since.

Then there was the odd CB750 I came across in 1971 (it might have been 1970?) at Mannheim Honda in the Chicago area: it was a hotrod 750 known to dominate others of its ilk, and had sucked a valve in a missed-shift street race. I was called to ask if I had a spare 1968 SuperHawk intake valve, which was thought to be the same one needed: the bent one was definitely NOT a normal CB750 valve! It turned out to have a bore of just under 60mm and stroke we [think] measured at 64mm, with some valve reliefs cut into the tops of the cylinders near the valves: and Mannheim Honda (where I bought my first K1) had sold the bike new, serviced it all the way (it was still under the 90-day warranty at this point) and knew it to be 'virgin' when they took it apart. Lots of us puzzled over that one. Eventually the Honda Rep helped them find a valve and they sent it back out to dominate the street once again. I supposed it to also have a non-'stock' cam, judging from the cursory look I got at it, but we didn't gage it for certain. Since then, rumor had it that there were TWO of these bikes in that area, the other being in lower Michigan near the Sand Dunes Monument park area.

Ah, the legend...!

[Deltarider]

Yeah, that CB500K3 is a rarity. I forgot to mention Switzerland. Even Austria and Italy may have had some, but my impression is 'the bulk' went to Scandinavia. In looks it was identical with the CB550K3. You can only see the difference by looking at the emblem on the side panels.
My experience sofar is that the info found in the several Parts Lists is very reliable. I can't say the same of a particular Owner's Manual.
http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/libretti-uso-a-manutenzione
I believe the info in the (light blue) Owner's Manual Honda CB500 K - CB550 K is quite allright. But it's the one above of it: Honda CB500 1975, that raises eyebrows. I suppose it's about my 1976 CB500 as well because on the backcover it says 'K2'. P.66 of that manual shows how the breather element underneath the airfilter element should be serviced, but... this model didn't have that breather element, not even my 1976 built has it (thank goodness). That breather element was a CB550 thing and the only CB500 that had it, was the much later K3. Strange also is p.72 about Clutch Adjustment. I can assure you that model never had the right hand side operated clutch shown in the pic. Only the K3 had it but... that was 1977. How this false information ever got into a 1975 dated manual with 'K2' printed on the backcover remains a mystery to me.

[Deltarider]

Just returned from a testride and all is fine. I paid extra attention to the routing of the clutch cable. For an experiment I routed it beneath the frame tube and not through the hole, but before I even put on the tank, I knew that it wouldn't be good. So I'm pretty confident the cable has to go through the hole in the frame tube. But... if you have Dyna coils, watch out! They are bigger than OEM, so pay extra attention to the routing. The Dyna's are higher and so bend the cable just a bit more. Another reason to stay with stock.
Much to my surprise and although I had the clutch lifter and adjuster apart, after reassembly I only had to adjust the cable somewhat to have it function OK. What a joy it is to shift gears on these bikes! And at higher rpm, it even gets better. You can even shift up without using the clutch at all.

[78whiteorbs]

Progress report here:

As pernh HM's instruction all seems well now....shifts. Great and I have noticed as mentioned the friction point did move after it got hot....never would guessed that. Marking this as SOLVED!

[Stev-o]

Thanks for the update, orbs. Now trade it for that Suzi!

[Tews19]

No one mentioned TwoTired is back!!!!! Hi Lloyd!

[78whiteorbs]

That ship sailed but so it goes.
Newest offer was a 99 Ducati Monster City 900
Kinda rare bike and have never had a monster.

Also a never fired Glock 20 a AR-15 with magnifier never fired 250 rounds ammo and $500....All new with reciepts totalling $2900