Topic: Dyna S on Ebay - Dumb Idea?

[scottly]

Points inherently cannot survive at voltages greater than about 9V.

Pete, you're speaking about automotive ignition systems that use a ballast resistor to drop the voltage to the coil, which draws much more current than these bike's coils. It's the current that erodes the points, not the voltage. 

[markreimer]

I've got a K4 750 with a Pamco in there.

Used to have a Dyna-S in there, set the timing, and rode another 25,000KM or so on it, then it mysteriously died. Well, it would die once the engine got hot, as has been mentioned by others here. That took a while to figure out.

Replaced it with a Pamco because I like the simplicity of e-ignitions.

Do I hate points? nope. I have them on my other SOHC4 that gets regular use. But I prefer the simplicity and 'set it and forget it' nature of the electronic ignitions.

to ME, the argument against electronic ignitions predicated on the 'it might die and leave you stranded' idea is kinda laughable considering we're talking about bikes over FORTY years old!! I can think of quite a few things that could fail unexpectedly while out on a ride. I've been stranded for quite a few reasons over the years. Only one of them was related to the Dyna.


My bike runs as well with the Pamco as it did with perfectly set points.


Run whatever you like. But to the original post - I wouldn't' pay that much for a used Dyna 

[scottly]

Well, not in my experience.  Telco central office systems of yore had, egads, a lot of relay contacts that operated at 48 volts routinely.  Yes, they had to be reconditioned periodically, just like the points in the SOHC4.

I was in a Bell office in Oakland once, and they had a crew that started at one end of the racks cleaning contacts, and by the time they got to the other end, it was time to start back at the beginning. The continuous maintenance was partially the reason for the change to digital telephone switches, which in turn allowed the internet as we know it today. 

[scottly]

How many satisfied users are going to bother to wax poetically about their trouble free electronic ignitions? Not too many since most of them are out riding! 

I'll wax a bit about my 37+ year old Gerex ignition, at the risk of jinxing it ; it still works fine, and I haven't had to touch it for years, and then only because I had to split the cases for transmission issues.. Since the Gerex is no longer available, I've tried to refrain from mentioning it on this type of topic, as I would feel like I was gloating.

[PetesPonies]

I obviously have lost you and you don't understand the principles being discussed. It actually is very cut and dry. No dyno is needed, it is basic math. One system is capable of one limit, the other system is capable of a higher limit. The longevity and consistent values verses degrading, only adds to the lopsided result. I would suggest an Ignition 101 site . . which there are, and learn what is going on in the circuit.
As far as goals, I think I covered that in my post where I mentioned I have some points systems in some of my vehicles.

[754]

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

Just how far can you ride with a points system after the EMP toasts your rectifier diodes? ;

If battery is up then disconnect lights, wire coils to battery, it will probably go 4 hrs or more.
 Then recharge,. Or grab some lantern batteries..go again.

[TwoTired]

Since the Gerex is no longer available, I've tried to refrain from mentioning it on this type of topic, as I would feel like I was gloating.

The Gerex is one I really wanted to try out.  But, never found one I could afford.   It like all the rest, it is way more expensive than it ought to be, for what it provides.

I'm just not "in" to lining other's pockets for no deserving reason.  And, lo and behold, my bikes still run!   

cheers,

[Ridem32]

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

Just how far can you ride with a points system after the EMP toasts your rectifier diodes? ;

If battery is up then disconnect lights, wire coils to battery, it will probably go 4 hrs or more.
 Then recharge,. Or grab some lantern batteries..go again.

If you use the lanterns battery it's a dry cell with the springs on top you have to hook positive cable to negative on battery and negative cable to positive on battery unplug head lite and ride home


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[TwoTired]

I obviously have lost you and you don't understand the principles being discussed.

If that position allows you to sleep well at night, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.  Sweet dreams!
Might be you're focusing on that which is not important to making the SOHC4 actually be more efficient than it is already.
The fact remains, there is STILL no definitive data showing tangible improvement (HP, Economy, efficiency, etc.) from a points substitution gadget.

Even good theory has to be proven or demonstrated eventually.

Spent part of my 30 year working career testing and/or verifying manufacturer claims regarding electrical/electronic devices.  They could all be performance tested without opening them up, or peering into their manufacturer secrets, to see if their promises were, in fact, reality.  Many didn't actually do what was promised.  Many simply stopped trying to sell to our company, looking for other marks to exploit.   Some went out of business.   Some improved their products as a result of the testing results.  Products that don't live up to their hype should get eliminated, in my utopia.

Be well, Pete!

[Spanner 1]

If you insist on installing a Dyna ign., then be sure to also install a solid-state regulator/rectifier unit too. The stock electromechanical regulator is way too imprecise in it's switching voltages to satisify a Dyna unit .Many cases of ' the Dyna got too hot and died' are actually cases where the stock regulator allowed say, 15v to the bike before 'clicking' over to low charge setting. The Dyna will shut down with overvoltage. This usually happens on a long ride where the battery finally achieves full charge and the surplus voltage rises too high before the stock regulator reacts. No problem for stock points tho', just sayin' .... Oh and Scottly , the battery wont get ' boiled' by overvoltage as this event may only last a minute which is a short time on a dumb battery but a very, very long time on a digital device.

[Ridem32]

The best test is to test it at home. Hook up a good timing light which most all of us own. Watch the timing jump around with points then check another bike with E ignition  both being 750 Honda   I have had several older mustangs 67 thru 69. You would think the distributor was bad the timing jumped so much put in Pertronix ignition and every single car the timing was smooth and never jumped again I have had many Honda 750,s more than most over the years. I have put E ignition in everyone with no failures. As I said before points are very easy to set. Back in our day we all had to set points no big deal.  But they do run better with E ignition.  Go ahead and try the timing light trick


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[scottly]

Oh and Scottly , the battery wont get ' boiled' as this event may only last a minute which is a short time on a dumb battery but a very, very long time on a digital device.

It's also a very, very long time with a LiFe battery, Ray, and the peaks with a mechanical regulator can be greater than 15V.

[scottly]

I obviously have lost you and you don't understand the principles being discussed. It actually is very cut and dry. No dyno is needed, it is basic math.

Show your math, using Ohm's law. (I feel sorry for your students. )

[JBCB500]

Wow!! Lots of debate here after my original Q!  I didn't end up buying that eBay part as it was incomplete and too expensive considering it was used.

[Terry in Australia]

And the personal attacks have begun, geez that didn't take long? I was hoping Scott was going to volunteer his dyno and his time to test the various systems, I'd be happy to loan a Martek and a Dyna S (and maybe a Dyna 3 if I've still got one) to finally put this to bed? Cheers, Terry.

[Spanner 1]

 Ridem... When I put my timing light on my points they fire on the 'F' mark  'no wobble', and advance to the '' mark smoothly. I guess all your bikes had bent points cam studs from using a wrench on the points cam 'nut' to turn-over the motor, a nono.

[markreimer]

Ridem... When I put my timing light on my points they fire on the 'F' mark  'no wobble', and advance to the '' mark smoothly. I guess all your bikes had bent points cam studs from using a wrench on the points cam 'nut' to turn-over the motor, a nono.

I've had to straighten that stud myself. My oem manual says to use that nut to rotate the engine during valve adjustments. A later one says only with plugs out. Do you just never do it, rather use the rear wheel?


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[scottly]

I was hoping Scott was going to volunteer his dyno and his time to test the various systems, I'd be happy to loan a Martek and a Dyna S (and maybe a Dyna 3 if I've still got one) to finally put this to bed? Cheers, Terry.

Sorry, Terry, but after putting my bike back together after the winter upgrades, I'm not inclined to tear into it again to settle a popcorn worthy topic, and it probably wouldn't settle it anyway. For what it's worth, I doubt there is much difference in power output between the systems mentioned, although RC stated that the Gerex would produce more power. My take is that the Gerex has proven to be rock solid, and a certain vintage of Dyna S has given electronic ignitions a black eye that still lingers 10 years after it first surfaced.

[Spanner 1]

Plugs out ONLY IMO, otherwise easy risk of bending the stud out-of-true. A good idea to check it for true if any jitter observed in idle with a strobe light, or any difficulty in setting the 1-4 points gap vs the 2-3 points gap.

[PeWe]

If you insist on installing a Dyna ign., then be sure to also install a solid-state regulator/rectifier unit too. The stock electromechanical regulator is way too imprecise in it's switching voltages to satisify a Dyna unit .Many cases of ' the Dyna got too hot and died' are actually cases where the stock regulator allowed say, 15v to the bike before 'clicking' over to low charge setting. The Dyna will shut down with overvoltage. This usually happens on a long ride where the battery finally achieves full charge and the surplus voltage rises too high before the stock regulator reacts. No problem for stock points tho', just sayin' .... Oh and Scottly , the battery wont get ' boiled' by overvoltage as this event may only last a minute which is a short time on a dumb battery but a very, very long time on a digital device.

I see that on my bike, voltage enter 15V+ now and then. It last a minute or 2 max. I have voltage supervision, a LED that has 3 colors. yellow, green and  flashing red wich is the overvoltage.
I have had thoughts to install a regulator that feed the Hondaman ignition. A regulator for a few Amps cost not much. I do not know how many amps needed.

[Spanner 1]

Hondamans unit is well proven on our old bikes . I don't think his switching transistor has parameters which fail under the stock SOHC4 charging/regulation even if way out of whack .

[somesuch]

I had bad luck with Dyna's. The oldest ones were really good about 5 years ago they went bad. Save your money and buy a PAMCO, Hondaman or just run points. Why buy a possible headache.

I second that, not very good lately, and it will leave you stranded.

[TwoTired]

The best test is to test it at home. Hook up a good timing light which most all of us own. Watch the timing jump around with points then check another bike with E ignition  both being 750 Honda.  As I said before points are very easy to set. Back in our day we all had to set points no big deal.  But they do run better with E ignition.  Go ahead and try the timing light trick

I have done so many many times.  The timing is stable with a strobe.  Mind you, I HAVE seen the symptom you describe.  But, it was due to faulty components, not an inherent characteristic of a properly operating points system.

Not surprising you favor electronic if you've only replaced faulty points systems with them.

Are you claiming a power or efficiency improvement with E ignition?  Any supportive/comparative data using an SOHC4?

You know, back in the 70's people raced motors with points systems up to 13K RPM.  There were engine failures, of course.  But, not attributed to the points system.  Which proved fully functional on the scope.

[Terry in Australia]

I was hoping Scott was going to volunteer his dyno and his time to test the various systems, I'd be happy to loan a Martek and a Dyna S (and maybe a Dyna 3 if I've still got one) to finally put this to bed? Cheers, Terry.

Sorry, Terry, but after putting my bike back together after the winter upgrades, I'm not inclined to tear into it again to settle a popcorn worthy topic, and it probably wouldn't settle it anyway. For what it's worth, I doubt there is much difference in power output between the systems mentioned, although RC stated that the Gerex would produce more power. My take is that the Gerex has proven to be rock solid, and a certain vintage of Dyna S has given electronic ignitions a black eye that still lingers 10 years after it first surfaced.

Ha ha, very true Scott, as much as I'd love to see the results of a range of electronic ignitions compared to points, you'd probably be howled down for being "biased" and "rigging" the tests, regardless of how biased the howlers might be........

I've got a Gerex here that came off an RC Suzy GS1000, I'm sure it'll work fine on a CB750 as I've swapped ignitions between my GS1000's and CB750's before, can you think of any reason why it wouldn't? I've got a new Pamco here too, but I was gonna keep it for my K0 resto. Cheers, Terry.    

[jonda500]

I'll add this, just for fun.  What will EMP do to a points system, compared to any electronic device on your bike?

Just how far can you ride with a points system after the EMP toasts your rectifier diodes? ;

If battery is up then disconnect lights, wire coils to battery, it will probably go 4 hrs or more.
 Then recharge,. Or grab some lantern batteries..go again.

If you use the lanterns battery it's a dry cell with the springs on top you have to hook positive cable to negative on battery and negative cable to positive on battery unplug head lite and ride home


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Years ago I got around for months with two 6 volt dolphin lantern batteries when my battery died (no electric start), but I certainly did NOT install them with the polarity reversed!! I twisted the plus spring on one and the negative off the other together and then connected my cables to the remaining two springs plus to red, negative to black (ground). They didn't explode and everything worked fine even with the lights on, in fact they were still in there working when I sold the bike! (p.s. it had points, I like points - I dunno how dyna's work or how to fix them..)
John