Topic: Oil Cooler Thread

[TwoTired]

Stick a meat thermometer in the oil and find out how hot is hot.

Few people are comfortable with their hand at 180 degrees.

Oil should be at about 180 degrees F during operation, with 230 being an acceptable maximum for lots of petro based oils.

When temps get beyond 400F (200C) some oils begin to break down.  
 In the case of compressive spot heating inside an engine, as little as 250 psi rise above atmospheric pressure is capable of increasing temperatures from 100°F to 400°F.  
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=475&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis
 Oil flow is obviously quite important.

You failed to mention what oil you are currently running.

Many synthetic oils still work better at higher temps than petro based oils.

I can't hold by hand on the 550 dipstick or the case when the engine is at operating temp., except on very cold days.  None of my 550s have oil coolers.  I run them hard, even in hot weather.  But, I don't race them on the track.  I also use a synthetic blend.

I think you should have better data than "my hand hurts" to make an informed decision about oil cooler needs.

Let the "Oil Wars" resume. 

Cheers,

[CBR1100XXX]

Sorry, TwoTired

I normally run a CBR1100XX and can check the oil no matter how hard I run her

I beleive the oil in the CB550 is a standard 10W40, as I purchased just 2 week ago and the oil was a fresh change and looked good

The bike is mainly stock aside from a 650 cam, Mac 4-1 exhaust and velosity stacks on the carbs, I was concerned as I could not hold the dip stick to un-screw it.

The temp at the track was about 80F and I was running hard, keeping up to some RZs (they out pulled me in the straights, but I got them in the tight stuff)

I was looking to change to a good 20-50 oil, Motul or ELF ??

I'll do that as I'll be racing Mosport next round

Thx,
Brian

[eldar]

You could also do rotella t. works good and is in 20-50, many here use it. 

[my78k]

Sorry, noticed that you said you were going to Mosport next and just had to ask...Is that just a track day of some sort or are you actually racing the 550 in a series up there? I am only about 20 minutes or so from Mosport and admittedly don't get there very often but if they have SOHC races of some form then I would definitely make my way up there...

Dennis

[jph550]

You could also do rotella t. works good and is in 20-50, many here use it. 

I checked out Shell's site about Rotella and couldn't finda a 20w50. Is it availble in this weight? Or, does the 15w40 perform as well as 20w50?
thanks

[eldar]

Well hard to say about their website but I have gotten it at walmart and have seen it other places. The 15-40 will not protect quite as well on high heat but will flow easier on startup.

[csendker]

40W is 40W when at temperature...

[jph550]

I'll look for the 20w50 weight. I should change out my 10w40 soon before it gets sooo hoootttt now that summer is upon us (officialy)

[eldar]

it is but the first number isthe oils cold flow rating. The lower the number, the easier it flows when not warmed up. So what this means is that, oil will get to moving parts faster on startup if it has a lower begining number.

[Noel]

I normally run a CBR1100XX and can check the oil no matter how hard I run her

Yeah, comparatively speaking, the SOHC is going be a lot hotter.

I beleive the oil in the CB550 is a standard 10W40, as I purchased just 2 week ago and the oil was a fresh change and looked good

Honda recommends 20w50 for "extended periods of high speed operation" or "operation in warm weather", both of which you've got. I personally would be very uncomfortable until I had synthetic 20w50 in the bike. Honestly have no idea which brand is best, or even really how to find out. I'm using Amsoil because that's what the local shop carries.

The bike is mainly stock aside from a 650 cam, Mac 4-1 exhaust and velosity stacks on the carbs, I was concerned as I could not hold the dip stick to un-screw it.

I can hold the dipstick of my 500 at operating temperature, for whatever that's worth. (Nothing like a little contradictory information, eh?  ) With your open exhaust and stacks, I'd make doubly sure of my fueling. You could well be lean, which would certainly lead to extra heat. Do some throttle chops on new plugs and see what they tell you. Hell, might even be worth pulling the main jets; I'd guess they should be 115-120 at least.

[dusterdude]

my opinion is(i know ya`ll dont get to hear it too often),if you`re racin you need a cooler.

[CBR1100XXX]

Hey my78k,

August 18-20 at Mosport is the years biggest vintage festival

Great thing about the CB550, you run competitively in three different classes

For those of you who don't know Mosport is Canada's oldest race track, 2.5 mile
10 turn track with awesome elevation changes

Mike Hailwood raced his Honda there way back against "Ago" and F-1 cars ran there before Montreal, the tracks got history

It will be a blast

Thx Brian

[TwoTired]

I normally run a CBR1100XX and can check the oil no matter how hard I run her

The similarity here is that they both have two wheels, and... Well that's about it!
Convert the 550 to water cooling, fuel injection, use a plastic dipstick (just guessing), subtract 25 years of motorcycle technology, and you can probably check the oil without discomfort, too.

I beleive the oil in the CB550 is a standard 10W40, as I purchased just 2 week ago and the oil was a fresh change and looked good

If you are going to race the CB550 (atta boy! pretty cool!), do frequent oil changes, use heavier weight oil (50W), and if the bike is older than 1977 do something to the rocker shafts to keep them from turning in the cam cover. (orings as friction devices help)

There's not much you can tell from looking at oil, except for presence and that is looks like oil.
Would you drink water that "looked good" before a marathon?

The bike is mainly stock aside from a 650 cam, Mac 4-1 exhaust and velosity stacks on the carbs, I was concerned as I could not hold the dip stick to un-screw it.

Reasonable concern.

My 77 CB550F in completely stock configuration is the same way after a brisk ride in hot weather.  However, remember that these carburetors don't have a computer to tell them to richen up.  They were tuned to have some restriction on the intake in order for the jets to provide proper mixtures.  Without this, the bike will run quite lean with stock jetting and engine temps WILL increase, possibly to destruction.

The temp at the track was about 80F and I was running hard, keeping up to some RZs (they out pulled me in the straights, but I got them in the tight stuff)

That's likely rider skill.  But, the 550 handling helps.

I was looking to change to a good 20-50 oil, Motul or ELF ??

Good plan.  However, pull your spark plugs and look at the white insulator for deposits.  Tan deposits are safe.  White or no deposits mean you are running WAY too lean.  You will then need to maybe raise TV needles, and likely use larger main jets to compensate for the lack of filter restriction.

Also take note of your track elevation.  Closer to sea level, the carbs will mix on the lean side.  Higher elevations, the carbs will run richer.

Running an engine hard, hot, and lean is a recipe for short cylinder and valve life, and limits the rider's fun, too.  It's better to ride than push the bike.

Give 'em 'ell !!
Cheers,

[TwoTired]

One other thing I forgot to mention is to use a colder plug for your race events.  NGK D8EA will wick heat away from the chamber faster and out to the cooling fins.  It won't run very well until the engine gets to operating temp, though.

Cheers,

[CBR1100XXX]

Thanks for the advise TwoTired

I'm going to go over the bike prior to the next race, I wasn't planning on going but there is a race in Quebec July 8th

I'll change the oil and the plugs as well as have a look at the jetting and needle

I wanted to have a look at the carbs anyway

She has Andrews coils with Accel wires and a electronic igntion as well and a the frame is semi race prepped
Foxx shocks and progressive springs up front. Also runs a steering damper which I'm not fond of, limits the turning radius.

I haven't had so much fun riding in years (feels like I'm cheating on the wife), handles like a charm (through her around and wants more)

Cheers,
Brian

[eurban]

So my new oil cooler setup for my 836 (78750K) project incorporates a lockhart 180 degree thermostat.  The thermostat is a separate piece and based on the sticker on it, it  has:  a tube for incoming oil  from the engine, a tube for out going oil to the cooler (these two are in line), a tube for incoming oil from the cooler and a tube for outgoing oil back to the engine (these last two are in line and obstructed by the thermostat when it is closed) Ordinarily I wouldn't consider which cooler adapter plate hose went were as most oil coolers don't seem to care which direction oil flows thru but since the thermostat is specifically marked, I figured I would connect the hoses correctly.  Looking and the adapter plate there is a hose barb fed from the back side of the plate (towards the engine) and a hose fed from the filter side.  I believe that the hose barb that is fed from the back side of the plate would be the feed but I would like to confirm this.  Who knows for sure?  Thanks

[Bodi]

The flow in the filter is from outside to inside. The adapter bolt just bypasses the adapter plate and sends the filtered oil through the centre hole into the engine. So oil from the pump enters the back of the adapter plate, the cooler hose that goes directly into the back cavity is the feed or OUT hose. The hose that goes to the front (filter side)of the plate (usually through a "lump" inside the back cavity) is the return or BACK line.

[eurban]

Thanks Bodi, that is pretty much what I figured.

[my78k]

Hey CBR, Thanks for the info...I have dirt bikes etc. since I was a kid but it's been a while and am just getting back into it. This CB750 has sort of ceen a bot if a catalyst for me...I will certianly try to make it up there...I'm in the Oshawa area so its a short trip up the road and sounds like a good time. Hopefully my beast will be at the point where I can ride it up!

If I do make it up I'll know a few days and will pm you in advance so I know who I should be cheering for!

Dennis

[Tim.]

Hey my78k,

August 18-20 at Mosport is the years biggest vintage festival

Great thing about the CB550, you run competitively in three different classes

For those of you who don't know Mosport is Canada's oldest race track, 2.5 mile
10 turn track with awesome elevation changes

Mike Hailwood raced his Honda there way back against "Ago" and F-1 cars ran there before Montreal, the tracks got history

It will be a blast

Thx Brian

I'll have to get up there - I'd love to see the old bikes running around.  If anyone wants to get organized, it would be a great outing for us GTA SOHC4 owners.

There are a few of us living in Toronto (I'm near High Park) who get together at least once a week for a night ride.  PM me for more info if anyone wants to come out.  It's a great mix of people - the other night we were out with three CB550's, two CB350 twins etc.  great times.

[my78k]

TinTin,  nice to see more of us GTA'ers represented. I would definitely be up to hooking up for some rides a little later this summer once I put some new rubber on the beast and get a certification for my "project a.k.a resurrection" as it still needs minor details like a horn and working signals etc...BTW I am scoping out a decent shop to do some of the work that I won't tackle myself like tire changes etc. Any thoughts on places that you'd reccomend?

At the very least on the off chance that I don't have her licensed for the event we could hook up for the race if anyone else is interested in heading up that way...I know a few of my buddies would be more than happy to take the drive up...

Something to consider...

Dennis

[maksuttt]

Tintin, i wanna join you. I am at Kipling&Dundus.
Sorry for offtopic...

[John]

All right,
I am trying to install an oil cooler setup and I am having issues. It occured to me before I started how much more exciting my bike would be with like 5 new potential spots to leak oil. . . it keeps things interesting.That is exactly what is going on. I have a 71 k1. Today, I installed a lockhart cooler and adapter plate both with press on 3/8" fittings. The hose I am using is Goodyear Transmission Oil Cooler Line. It dribbles oil out three of the four hose ends. I do have clamps on these obviously. Even if I can get this to stop leaking, I don't have a lot of faith in this setup so here are my questions:

1. Does anyone have specific ideas for a setup that uses more secure fittings - like threaded braided steel lines or something? Would I need to dump my lockhart cooler as the 3/8 press-on fittings are not removable? Who makes these lines and what size fittings do I want etc.? What kind of cooler should I look for?

2. Running the lines away from my 4/4 exhaust was a #$%*. At a couple point the lines are only about 1/2" away from the hot exhaust. Is this not as big a problem as I think? I have looked and I can't find a better way to run them. Maybe someone could post some picts.

3 My setup seemed to require an extra .75 quart of oil. Anyone else have a similar cooler and can comment. It seemed like a lot to me.


Thanks guys!!!

[eurban]

I am using a oem DOHC nighthawk style cooler on my 750 that has the output/inputs for the cooler coming out of cast in 90 degree female fittings.  This means that the two outputs/inputs point at each other.  This brings the hoses in tight to each other between the 2 and 3 exhaust pipes and then down a the cooler plate.  I actually used the hard pipe portion of the OEM hoses as the 90 degree bends on them allowed me to bring the hoses in neatly avoiding the exhaust pipes and brought the hoses into a perfect spacing to attach to my lockhart 180 degree thermostat which requires that  both hoses be about 1 1/2" apart before going down to the cooler.   The 3/8 hose fit fine onto the stock Honda hard pipe (once I cut thru the oem crimps and cut away the old hose).  The thermostat and the cooler plate all have barbed or nubbed type fittings that are desgined to work with 3/8" ID hose.  To seal the hose I used fuel injection type clamps that were available in different sizes from my local Pep Boys.  These are easier on the hoses than standard hose clamps and they certainly do a good job sealing on my application.  I also have a Lockhart cooler that I opted not to use as its narrower width put the oil inputs/outputs in a bad spot (exhaust wise) for straight up down oil flow and a bit tight for a 90 degree flow.  I probably could have sourced out some more "sweeping" type 90 degree bends to fit the Lockhart cooler (I believe mine uses 3/8npt fittings but I am not certain) that would have brought the pipes in tight to each other but the OEM nighthawk (DOHC 650 I believe) cooler simply looked and worked better from a plumbing stand point. I would not be too happy if my hoses came within a 1/2" of the exhaust pipes but you might get away with it if you applied some heat shielding around the hose at the appropriate points.  I think you might be able to find some stick on type stuff at the auto parts store but I can't say for sure how well this would work.    I am not familiar with your style cooler that has non removeable fittings, but  if you wanted to go with racing type fittings (banjo etc) then you would most certainly have to find a cooler with treaded input/outputs.  I do think that you can make the "press on" or barbed type fittings work reliably with good hose and clamps but certainly there are better types of fittings . . . They will most certaily require a good outlay of $.  Terry's coolers seem to be wider and less tall than the lockhart ones and the input/outputs line up almost perfectly with the frame tubes (on a 750 at least) so if you do decide to replace the cooler radiator you might want to speak with him.   Good luck

[Bodi]

There is a tube fitting that will attach to the Lockhart nipples. I think it's a 3/8 tube compression fitting but I am not 100% sure, it's a common size though. This has a nut, ferrule, and the main fitting body. Tightening the nut crushes the ferrule onto the tube.
You have to hacksaw or file off the "lump" on the lockhart nipple leaving a plain tube sticking out, cut off as little as possible just so the tube doesn't bell out. The nut and ferrule just slip on then you attach the fitting and reef down the nut. You can get these fittings with pretty much any pipe fitting on the other end, probably a 3/8 female NPT is easiest to get on your oil line if you want to use steel braided teflon.
The fittings can be disassembled and reassembled easily, they aren't really made to though and may seep a bit after a few cycles but wrapping some teflon plumbers tape around the ferrule will seal them again.
Also, Lockhart did make coolers with NPT threaded in/outs. I got one called a "flat track" cooler at a flea market, it's a bit taller (more fins) than the usual one and I hope to install it when I get some time.
I do wonder if the in/out at the bottom of the cooler is right, I would think they should be at the top so the cooler would fill up completely. It would be difficult to get all the oil out at change time though.