Author Topic: Oil Cooler Thread (Read 156713 times)

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #300 on:** July 17, 2007, 03:36:10 PM »

Hmm, I seem to remember the same discussions going on back in Feburary of this year. I think I've got some real-world proof that they do work. Here is a post from back then -Gordon

I have just now read through this thread - I'd missed it earlier. I noticed it when it started on it's 3rd page.

Here is some factual data - I have a Raytek digital infared gun/thermometer. I check and use this thing religiously because it helps me tune and figure jetting needs on the 2 strokes I restore. On the triples, I like to jet so the center cylinder runs at the same temp as the outer two. I always go for 198~205 F. The 2000 ZRX (watercooled 1100) cylinders run at a constant 210~215 degrees after a long ride. The 100% stock CB500, CB350G, and the TX650 twin run at 210~230 on every cylinder. If I get to 240 or more in routine checking, then I'll look for the problem -because I believe there is one.

My 836 has run Terry's cooler since day 1 and the cylinder temps are always 200~210. This is after 30 minutes of riding or 2 hours of riding - it's the same. The oil temps is a different story. I will pull the cap off of the oil tank and shoot it after 30 minutes and it's in the 150 range. After 2 solid hours of riding at 4~8,000 rpms with lots of full throttle (I live in the mountains and I love to use the gears) the highest I remember recording was 183 F at the tank. The oil temps in my 1973 TX650 reach 260, the Honda CB350 has reached 265 and would be smoking when the dipstick is pulled. Terry's cooler works for me and I've included a pic below of the upper-end when I cut my frame and pulled the cover to fix those darn "sealing rubbers" under the cam towers. You'll see there is plenty of the good ole Motul 100% synthetic 10/40 juice all over the place. I turn my handlebar switch and choke to off and turn the starter until my pressure gauge comes up. The electric start will spin up to 30 lbs. Once cranked at idle it reads to 60 psi and stays there as long as it's running so I'm getting good circulation and I've eliminated dry-starts.

I am the worst person to have as a customer. Most things don't suit me and many don't come up to my expectations. Take the stock CB750 for example. I would only want a stock one if it were a personal friend that I had in school, took me dating, or something equal. I knew when I bought this $112 bike that it was going to be a chopper or a retro-hotrod. The retro thing took hold quickly and all of the porting, valvetrain, and 836cc pieces soon came in the mail. Terry is one of the first people I contacted for a cooler kit. 10 days later I get it and decide it needs a chrome K&N filter and stainless, braided lines and hose-ends to complement the looks. At first I had a small leak at the adapter/case seal, but that's because I was not putting the brass bolt to the factory torque spec. A run down to Autozone and I had the "correct" thin-wall socket and when put to the proper torqe- no leaks - none.

Terry, I'm a happy customer. I personally like my oil not to be smoking at 265 F, my cylinders running at the same temps as my watercooled bikes, and I love the chrome filter and braided lines - you should have those added to your kits as "up-grade" option. Did you all know regular, conventional oils start turning to varnish at 300 F? Redline and Motul raise that up to 485, That oil that gets sent down the cylinders and on the bottom of the pistons see 500 + temps. I want to run Terry's cooler and I never want to run a conventional oil - not even in my lawnmower.

Regards,
Gordon

jbailey · « **Reply #301 on:** July 17, 2007, 04:04:26 PM »

Since we have established that running oil at too low of a temperature is not good, and that running oil at too high of a temperature is even worse, the only real way to control the problem reliably is to use oil that has a wider temperature range. What oil does not thicken at low temperatures AND handles higher temperatures simultaneously? Synthetic of course. This is the only oil anyone should consider running in any air cooled engine. Why try to use an oil cooler to control damage caused by running oil that is not tolerant to temperature extremes?

Proven correct again. Thank You.

jonbuoy · « **Reply #302 on:** July 17, 2007, 04:24:08 PM »

Wouldn't the surface area of a honeycombe type oil cooler be far greater than any extra finning you could add to the engine?

LoopsAndLogic · « **Reply #303 on:** July 17, 2007, 05:30:17 PM »

Gordon, when checking the cylinder temps, do you shoot directly at the base of each cylinder, or at each spark plug opening??

I've been getting mixed signals from the place I purchased my infrared temp gauge. One guys says, "At each cylinder plug" another says "At each cylinder wall", etc.

Clarification would be appreciated

I've been using Honda's Non-synthetic oil for 2k miles, and after taking the topend off my 400f, it looks great! And the cam lobes and journals look fantastic.

And I was told not to use Synthetic in these older bikes, cause the friction plates of the clutch won't hold up.

Just my .2 cents

LL

Gordon · « **Reply #304 on:** July 17, 2007, 06:14:40 PM »

Quote from: jbailey on July 17, 2007, 04:04:26 PM

Since we have established that running oil at too low of a temperature is not good, and that running oil at too high of a temperature is even worse, the only real way to control the problem reliably is to use oil that has a wider temperature range. What oil does not thicken at low temperatures AND handles higher temperatures simultaneously? Synthetic of course. This is the only oil anyone should consider running in any air cooled engine. Why try to use an oil cooler to control damage caused by running oil that is not tolerant to temperature extremes?

Proven correct again. Thank You.

It was only a matter of time before someone brought it up...

Now let's see if anyone takes the bait!

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #305 on:** July 17, 2007, 07:30:21 PM »

LL, I measure the temps dead center of the cylinders on the front side. If you take your gun and move it vertically up/down the approx travel of the piston you'll get a consistent reading of cylinder temps. On the twins, it's easy to read the head temps from the area immediately around the spark plugs by shooting the machined flat area. You cant do that on the CB500 and 750's. Don't be affraid to get 3" away - that way the reading is very specific to the area you want.

I don't want to be the one who starts an oil debate - I say your dealer or service area should be shot. Motul makes the Kawasaki oils, but I think all major brands carry full synthetic. These are "motorcycle specific" and do not have the molly and energy conserving additives in them. Look for the JP service designation - again, these are made specifically for wet clutches that share the fluids with the engine.

If you guys will take your over-worked, beaten, and abused Briggs and Stratton lawn mower and do a cheap (1 quart) at-home trial as I describe - you'll never argue this again.

Take your mower - warm it up and drain the oil. Put in fresh conventional oil. Run it for 2-3 weeks. Drain - look at it's color, smell it.

Install a quality Motul, Redline, Honda, Amsoil, or equivalent (I use Mobile 1 in my cars/trucks/mower) and run that sucker for the rest of the summer, run it next year, and the next -you won't see that oil turn black and thichen after 10 times as much abuse. I'm serious - I change my Snaper once a year with Mobile 1 and it drains out with clarity and still has a brown color to it. The reason is that it is not flashing(burning) like the conventional stuff.
Now I don't advocate leaving oil in there for 2 years as acids will accumulate in synthetics just as much as conventional (a process of moisture and the sulfer making harmful sulfuric acid during combustion). But it's a testomony to the durability and superior chemistry behind the synthetics.

I'm done. To bed now.

TwoTired · « **Reply #306 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:02:11 AM »

Quote from: Ilbikes on July 17, 2007, 03:36:10 PM

I think I've got some real-world proof that they do work. Here is a post from back then -Gordon

Here is some factual data - I have a Raytek digital infared gun/thermometer. The 100% stock CB500, CB350G, and the TX650 twin run at 210~230 on every cylinder.

My 836 has run Terry's cooler since day 1 and the cylinder temps are always 200~210. This is after 30 minutes of riding or 2 hours of riding - it's the same. The oil temps is a different story. I will pull the cap off of the oil tank and shoot it after 30 minutes and it's in the 150 range. After 2 solid hours of riding at 4~8,000 rpms with lots of full throttle (I live in the mountains and I love to use the gears) the highest I remember recording was 183 F at the tank.

Hello Gordon,
I've done detailed data analysis most of my professional life. While I do appreciate the very good data you've collected, I can't agree that you've proven that oil coolers are necessary on the SOHC4. (You haven't dissproven it either, if that's any consolation.)

Some observations/ questions:
-There are no before and after comparisons of temps on the same machine with and without oil coolers.
-If you have always run an oil cooler on the engine, how do you know what temp it would run without one?
-If you have only tested engines that were non-stock and modified, how do you know an engine in stock configuration requires extra cooling?

The data provides temperature comparisons between different machines where it is not established what normal is and under what conditions. There are myriad variables regarding operation between two machine types. One that is likely quite significant is that the Cb500 uses a hotter heat range spark plug than the 750, which may indicate that the 500 is designed to have hotter cylinder temps than the 750. There is also a significant difference in the amount of mass between these two machines. This effects the heat transmissivity.
Thinner material will transfer heat from inner to outer surface more rapidily than a thicker material of the same type/alloy. This makes outer surfaces more closely approach that of the inner surface where combustion occurs.
I also suspect that the IR temps were taken with the engine stationary and no airflow over the engine cooling fins. While this is a still a valid data point, the cooling fins AND the oil cooler are providing the least heat exhange rate in their operating regime.

I am not saying that oil coolers don't work. Simple physics dictate that they must. What is in question is how much of a difference do they make on the SOHC4 engine temp/ oil temp? And, is it enough to warrant it's addition. You have quantified some nice "after" numbers. What we don't have are some relevant "before" numbers to draw differential comparisons.

Please don't take any of this personally. In engineering, usefull data must withstand scrutiny. This is all I am trying to evaluate, with the goal of making a real cost/benefit analysis. Which, I think, was what Jinx was asking for in the beginning.

Cheers,

TwoTired · « **Reply #307 on:** July 18, 2007, 12:32:05 AM »

Quote from: jonbuoy on July 17, 2007, 04:24:08 PM

Wouldn't the surface area of a honeycombe type oil cooler be far greater than any extra finning you could add to the engine?

I've no doubt you could fit an oil cooler to the bike that had the same or even greater external surface area of the entire motor. (It is calculable)

But, you still have to get the heat to the oil cooler and the conductive element pathway is the oil itself.
The aluminum fin located adjacent to the combustion chamber has a thermal conductivity of 200-250 k - (W/m K).
Engine Oil has a thermal conductivity of 0.15, which is slightly better than soft rubber at 0.14 and slightly worse than asbestos at 0.16.

Which do you imagine is the most efficient way to couple waste combustion heat into the surrounding air?

Cheers,

jonbuoy · « **Reply #308 on:** July 18, 2007, 01:42:52 AM »

Ah you could be right there, I just figured they were fitted for the same reasons they are retro fitted on auto transmissions that do a lot of towing and a lot of other bikes. I guess Mr Honda did his sums before deciding not to fit one as standard. A lot of bikes have them factory fitted - I even had a small one on my last watercooled bike.

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #309 on:** July 18, 2007, 04:48:52 AM »

Hey, I never said they were necessary. I think Mr. Honda employed thousands of folks smarter than me that felt they weren't, thus not included as standard fare. But, I know Mr. Honda did not build the bike with 10.5:1 compression, ported heads, and 836cc to be run on unleaded fuel. The original fins and cooling surfaces were all designed for a mild 8.5:1 compression ratio, 736cc, and poorly designed intake ports that won't fill above 7,500 rpm. I'm sure there is plenty of margin built-in when stock, but with 100 horsepower and as far as I know - no other air-cooled bikes run 10.5:1 compression as stock for reasons of detonation and heat - I was not taking the risk.

I said radiators work. They must, else none of our cars and trucks would ever make the trip to work. I'm using a cooler built for a full-size V8 car/truck automatic transmission. I have no doubt it's going to carry temps away.

I don't have one on a stock bike - and won't. But one built way past the designer's original concept - something had to be done to help shred the extra heat and protect the investment.

Regards,
Gordon

eurban · « **Reply #310 on:** July 18, 2007, 03:36:00 PM »

Just to clarify, stock SOHC 750 compression ratios range from 9:1 to 9.2:1 (F0,F1, K7,K8)

ChevelleSSLS6 · « **Reply #311 on:** August 06, 2007, 09:28:02 AM »

1. did sohc4 racing bikes back in the day use oil coolers?
2. I'd personally find a synthetic oil without additives and stuff that may harm the clutch plates and use that.
3. I'm pretty new to motorcycles, and only 21 years spent here on Earth, so an old timer knows more than I do I'm sure!
4. someday, I'll be an old timer too.

sparty · « **Reply #312 on:** September 15, 2007, 08:02:43 PM »

Guys,

Today I installed my exhaust and oil cooler. It took a long time to get everything perfect. Those AN fittings are a pain.

http://www.basd.net/staff/aentz/CB750/CB750_page.htm

Got to the bottom of the web page the for pics.

Sparty

stay youth · « **Reply #313 on:** September 15, 2007, 08:32:36 PM »

wow looks fantastic man, i'm finishing up polishing my covers for my 400f i t has taken me so long but im glad to see it looks great on other bikes. what kind of oil cooler is that? very nice ride

sparty · « **Reply #314 on:** September 15, 2007, 08:44:28 PM »

The oil cooler is from a Honda 900F. I had all of the covers polished by a pro. He did a great job, but it wasn't cheap.

neil young · « **Reply #315 on:** September 15, 2007, 08:53:34 PM »

sweeeeeeeet.that is looking sharp.mike does great work from what i see here.

stay youth · « **Reply #316 on:** September 16, 2007, 12:59:57 AM »

where does the oil cooler connect into? sorry not familiar with oil coolers

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #317 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:23:05 AM »

That engine looks magnificent Art, well done! And it was good to see pics of you and Mike too, I don't think I've seen pics of either of you guys before now, so that was great too. Cheers, Terry.

sparty · « **Reply #318 on:** September 16, 2007, 10:13:55 AM »

Quote from: Terry in Australia on September 16, 2007, 01:23:05 AM

That engine looks magnificent Art, well done! And it was good to see pics of you and Mike too, I don't think I've seen pics of either of you guys before now, so that was great too. Cheers, Terry.

The cooler also looks good. Almost like stock. Thanks. Over the winter I am going to see if Mike can bead blast the bracket for me to match the other bead blasted items. I am also fabbing up an exhaust hanger for the Kerker can because I don't like the look of the supplied hanger that bolts to the rear shock.

Art

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #319 on:** September 16, 2007, 01:46:23 PM »

Quote from: sparty on September 16, 2007, 10:13:55 AM

The cooler also looks good. Almost like stock. Thanks. Over the winter I am going to see if Mike can bead blast the bracket for me to match the other bead blasted items. I am also fabbing up an exhaust hanger for the Kerker can because I don't like the look of the supplied hanger that bolts to the rear shock.

Art

No worries mate, I'm glad you're happy, those modified Honda coolers do look really nice, and work well. What else are you planning for the bike? Cheers, Terry.

Steve F · « **Reply #320 on:** September 16, 2007, 02:06:14 PM »

Stunning work! The whole bike is a masterpiece from the engine to all of the other details......B.O.T.M. nominations are coming I can tell. Keep posting more photos, please!
Steve F

MRieck · « **Reply #321 on:** September 16, 2007, 03:42:17 PM »

Nice Art....really nice.
Mike

sparty · « **Reply #322 on:** September 16, 2007, 05:30:27 PM »

Quote from: Steve F on September 16, 2007, 02:06:14 PM

Stunning work! The whole bike is a masterpiece from the engine to all of the other details......B.O.T.M. nominations are coming I can tell. Keep posting more photos, please!
Steve F

Steve,

My bike won BOTM sometime last year. I would be honored if it was nominated again, however, I would turn down the nomination because I'd like to see others have their 15 minutes of fame.

Art

sparty · « **Reply #323 on:** September 16, 2007, 05:31:26 PM »

Quote from: Terry in Australia on September 16, 2007, 01:46:23 PM

Quote from: sparty on September 16, 2007, 10:13:55 AM

The cooler also looks good. Almost like stock. Thanks. Over the winter I am going to see if Mike can bead blast the bracket for me to match the other bead blasted items. I am also fabbing up an exhaust hanger for the Kerker can because I don't like the look of the supplied hanger that bolts to the rear shock.

Art

No worries mate, I'm glad you're happy, those modified Honda coolers do look really nice, and work well. What else are you planning for the bike? Cheers, Terry.

Terry, did you see my nitrous kit? I'll be adding that in the spring.

Art

Terry in Australia · « **Reply #324 on:** September 16, 2007, 07:46:26 PM »

Quote from: sparty on September 16, 2007, 05:31:26 PM

Quote from: Terry in Australia on September 16, 2007, 01:46:23 PM
Quote from: sparty on September 16, 2007, 10:13:55 AM

The cooler also looks good. Almost like stock. Thanks. Over the winter I am going to see if Mike can bead blast the bracket for me to match the other bead blasted items. I am also fabbing up an exhaust hanger for the Kerker can because I don't like the look of the supplied hanger that bolts to the rear shock.

Art

Nitrous? Serious? I wanna see that!

No worries mate, I'm glad you're happy, those modified Honda coolers do look really nice, and work well. What else are you planning for the bike? Cheers, Terry.

Terry, did you see my nitrous kit? I'll be adding that in the spring.

Art

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Author Topic: Oil Cooler Thread (Read 156713 times)