Author Topic: Oil Cooler Thread  (Read 155404 times)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #925 on: December 03, 2013, 03:18:07 PM »
And...we're off!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #926 on: December 03, 2013, 03:44:26 PM »
And thats why most manufacturers fir them standard from the factory..... ::)

Do tell.  Which SOHC4 model came from the factory with an oil cooler fitted to each one?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 74750k4

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #927 on: December 03, 2013, 04:23:09 PM »
This looks a lot like the old Lockhart unit. Seems pretty expensive.

http://www.amazon.com/Jagg-Coolers-Automatic-Cooler-By-Pass/dp/B002VVLQZ4

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #928 on: December 03, 2013, 04:31:52 PM »
Jagg has a manual valve for deciding for yourself what is hot, and what is not...

http://www.jagg.com/by-pass.html

Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #929 on: December 03, 2013, 04:53:56 PM »
I've had an adapter and radiator on the Canary for eight years now. It was mostly an engineering excercise; I wanted to see if I could design and machine the plate having never seen one in the flesh. It works, in that it flows oil through the rad and then back into the engine. Cooling wise, I have no proof. If I'd had to pay for one instead of building it myself on the cheap, proof would have been required. Nobody seems to have any. ;D
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #930 on: December 03, 2013, 11:26:27 PM »
And thats why most manufacturers fir them standard from the factory..... ::)

Do tell.  Which SOHC4 model came from the factory with an oil cooler fitted to each one?

The 750/4 and other 4 cylinder models back then were at the start of the superbike era, a lot has been learned since then, and Honda did have an oil cooler option on its books, its been mentioned here on the forum numerous times. Almost every air cooled bike since the Honda has had an oil cooler and they were a very common addition here as well as the rest of the world, City traffic is a good enough reason to fit one, air cooled bikes like movement, not sitting at lights for prolonged periods of time. Just because you can't get your head around it doesn't mean its not a useful item , or needed for some, if not all air cooled bikes.... I will add that they should have a thermostat so they are not on all the time... The exception would be a cold climate, thats definitely not the case where i live...
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #931 on: December 04, 2013, 12:35:59 PM »
And thats why most manufacturers fir them standard from the factory..... ::)

Do tell.  Which SOHC4 model came from the factory with an oil cooler fitted to each one?

Come on Lloyd, have you forgotten that the SOHC CB750 F2/3 had factory fitted oil coolers? It's right there in your factory parts manual!

Of course, they were very unsophisticated "Heat Sinks" that went between the filter cartridge and the engine case, and not proper oil coolers with radiators like Honda offered as options in their race catalogue, but they were certainly Honda's first attempt at providing a budget oil cooler for an SOHC4.

As you know, the very next models all came with oil coolers as standard, as has just about every large capacity motorcycle built since. 

Oh, and if you hadn't heard the news, I'm out of the oil cooler business, so I don't have a financial interest in this subject, I'm just answering your question. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #932 on: December 04, 2013, 06:58:19 PM »
I may be missing something, the oil is a coolant. How can keeping it cooler not be beneficial?
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #933 on: December 04, 2013, 11:36:55 PM »
Because it absorbs water and by products that produce an acid so you need to get it hot enough to boil the water out
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #934 on: December 05, 2013, 01:18:54 AM »
Because it absorbs water and by products that produce an acid so you need to get it hot enough to boil the water out


The oil gets hot enough and if changed at recommended intervals  there's no problem..
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #935 on: December 05, 2013, 04:22:31 AM »
You know what they say about opinions?  ;) For my 2 cents worth, I believe both sides can be correct....typical Canadian response.  ;D

I've always used a cooler, but I always seem to ride more than just around the block. That said, for the folks that do, a cooler IS probably doing more harm than good. We've likely all seen the ashen buildup on engine parts showing lack of heat in engines. (the same problem contributed to the rusting out of stock exhausts, they didn't get hot enough to burn up the condensation) Especially nowadays when most of these old bikes are "dolled up" as boulevard cruisers and show goers and not really ridden much. Some coolers are pretty much useless too. In typical H....y fashion, some also think thicker oil is better, combine this with the above is crazy!

That said, for someone who rides a distance every time they're away, a cooler plus sensible oil combination only makes sense to me.

 


Offline ofreen

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #936 on: December 05, 2013, 06:54:34 AM »
My buddy's Nighthawk 700SC has an oil cooler and that compact engine needs all the help it can get. They don't have the surface area the old 750 does, and is in a somewhat higher state of tune. They tend to run hot. My old CB900F had one from the factory and probably had some utility on hot days (as long as the bike is moving).But I think I side with Lloyd as far as stock SOHC 750s go. Mine will roll over 145,000 miles in another 180, and is still going strong. I've lived in southern Idaho for the last 20 years. Summers are about 3 months of 90+F, with frequent stretches of triple digit temps. The engine is not fazed by it. The stock 750 is pretty under-stressed. On the other hand, it gets cool here in the winter. It was 19F when I rode to work yesterday. After 13 miles of 70 MPH freeway running, then 2 miles of surface streets, I can fairly comfortably hold my bare hand on the rocker cover at those temps. The oil is not getting warm enough in this case for optimum performance of the oil. Any oil cooler on these bikes definitely needs a thermostat control if they are ridden in a wide range of temperatures.
Greg
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #937 on: December 05, 2013, 07:34:16 AM »
My buddy's Nighthawk 700SC has an oil cooler and that compact engine needs all the help it can get. They don't have the surface area the old 750 does, and is in a somewhat higher state of tune. They tend to run hot. My old CB900F had one from the factory and probably had some utility on hot days (as long as the bike is moving).But I think I side with Lloyd as far as stock SOHC 750s go. Mine will roll over 145,000 miles in another 180, and is still going strong. I've lived in southern Idaho for the last 20 years. Summers are about 3 months of 90+F, with frequent stretches of triple digit temps. The engine is not fazed by it. The stock 750 is pretty under-stressed. On the other hand, it gets cool here in the winter. It was 19F when I rode to work yesterday. After 13 miles of 70 MPH freeway running, then 2 miles of surface streets, I can fairly comfortably hold my bare hand on the rocker cover at those temps. The oil is not getting warm enough in this case for optimum performance of the oil. Any oil cooler on these bikes definitely needs a thermostat control if they are ridden in a wide range of temperatures.


You're a machine ofreen.  ;D  I park mine when my knees get cold so like me most won't be riding in 19d weather. In this case you need an oil heater! 145,000 miles is awesome man. (actually mine is pushing 100K)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #938 on: December 05, 2013, 03:38:45 PM »
You know what they say about opinions?  ;) For my 2 cents worth, I believe both sides can be correct....typical Canadian response.  ;D

I've always used a cooler, but I always seem to ride more than just around the block. That said, for the folks that do, a cooler IS probably doing more harm than good.  {IF IT DOESN'T HAVE A THERMOSTAT, IF IT DOES THEN ITS FINE} We've likely all seen the ashen buildup on engine parts showing lack of heat in engines. (the same problem contributed to the rusting out of stock exhausts, they didn't get hot enough to burn up the condensation) Especially nowadays when most of these old bikes are "dolled up" as boulevard cruisers and show goers and not really ridden much. Some coolers are pretty much useless too. In typical H....y fashion, some also think thicker oil is better, combine this with the above is crazy!

That said, for someone who rides a distance every time they're away, a cooler plus sensible oil combination only makes sense to me.

Fixed that for you..... ;D ;)
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #939 on: December 05, 2013, 05:31:03 PM »
Interesting arguments on both sides and like most things it is not balck and white. We have been getting very hot summers here in NY lately. I have ridden at 100F and while I am moving I don't feel afraid of a seizure.  If I am stuck in traffic on a downgrade, I will shut her down and just coast with stop and go traffic. The motor does get hot and I can smell my last oil change or chain lube burning off.

 
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #940 on: December 05, 2013, 06:00:54 PM »
Screw oil coolers. I want an on bike oil cooker. I want to ride for 30 min and then have some chicken strips when I stop.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #941 on: December 05, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
I think it is safe to say the SOHC4 engine wasn't designed to have an oil cooler.  And, as it was to be sold throughout the world, expected to encounter high temperatures.  So, the cooling system's capability/capacity was incorporated to allow both the oil and the engine to survive in those high temperatures under routine use. 

As the system can handle hot extremes, yet has no regulation ability, at normal and cold temps the system actually over cools both the engine and the oil.  Anyone who has found the brown "mayonaise" (oil/water emulsion) in the oil supply has seen the proof of over cooling, as the oil did not get hot enough to evaporate and expel the water.

Now, if the power density of the stock engine has been increased.  And/or the engine is operated extensively at near peak power output as well as high temperatures, it is possible to overtax the stock cooling system, and toast the oil supply.  Then, if the damaged oil is not replaced, engine damage can result.  For this reason, race engines get an external oil cooler, to save the oil (nee engine) during the extremely abusive environment it experiences, well outside what normal street driving entails.

Because a race engine benefits from an oil cooler does NOT mean it is also beneficial for a bike operated on the street.  You cannot legally operate in race mode for very long, even if you have made yourself an "assault bike".   At normal street use power levels, the stock cooling system STILL provides proper cooling of components and oil.

To wit.  I have NEVER seen nor read of any engine failure in this forum where oil over temp was the determined cause of a failure.  Oil starvation, yes, overcooked oil, no.  And yes, I have overcooked the oil in my 550 due to partial starvation, high environmental temperatures, and excessive street idling.  A change in oil was all that was required to return the bike to regular service.

Ok, so you choose not to believe me and put on an oil cooler anyway.  What's the harm?
If you use an oil cooler system without a thermostat on a standard use bike, the oil becomes over cooled and can't flow throughout the engine as the engine designers planned.  Will it immediately blow up?  No. Probably not.  Will wear factors increase, I believe so and you have shortened the service life of the engine.  Further, the normal condensation that occurs within the engine at each cool down cycle, is at risk of not reaching a temperature to expel it during run time.  Expect brown mayonaise, and note that lubricating with water is not nearly as effective as actual oil throughout the engine.  If water build up is not properly addressed promtly, water presence instigates a biological action where amino acids form, which far from lubricating, actually eats away metal inside the engine.  This also shortens the service life of the engine.

If you use an oil cooler system with a thermostat on a standard use bike, there is a high risk that the thermostat will never or very seldom open.  This allows the oil in the cooler to stagnate, collect water, and build up amino acids.  Then, if or when conditions are actually encountered where the thermostat opens, all that contaminated oil w/acid contained in the oil cooler finds each and every bearing journal in the engine to munch on.  Shortened service life.

For a standard bike, operated in standard or median environmental conditions, the oil temp can easily never open an oil coolers thermostat, (how would you know if the stat operated?) allowing the oil within the cooler to not circulate.

Ok, so you modded your engine for increased HP, and you are worried about the increased heat waste from the extra HP.  This is a valid concern IF you plan to use the extra HP most of the time.  It still only takes 10-20 HP to cruise on the freeway no matter what your engine's maximum capability is.  The stock cooling system can handle that easily, without any need for an added oil cooler.

I'll inject here that an oil cooler adds another level of complexity to oil changes, as some method of draining it should also be addressed.

In my opinion, the lamest excuse for adding an oil cooler is sitting/idling in hot traffic.
If the air can't get around the engine to cool it, how is an oil cooler radiator going to get cooler air through it replacing the heated air?
  If you expect that little cooler to take the heat away from the engine, it needs the same oil movement volume as the air flow to be effective.  The oil has to absorb the heat inside the engine, be replaced, and moved to the oil cooler where in can give up its absorbed heat to air... that is not moving.  Has anyone noticed that the oil pressure and oil movement volume is lowest in the engine at idle speeds?  The SOHC4 just is NOT an oil cooled engine, that is a tertiary function of the oil in this motor.  Further, heat energy only moves when there is a differential between thermal masses.  If the air next to a 300 degree cooling fin is also 300 degrees, the air absorbs no heat, and the cooling fin remains at 300 degrees. 300 degree oil on the other side of the cooling fin also remains at 300 degrees.  That, my friends, is thermodynamics/physics.  This is one reason why nearly all internal combustion machines that survive routinely during prolonged stationary events have fans, whether there is an oil cooler on it, or not.

And that, people, is why I believe an oil cooler on a street use SOHC4 is an affectation, rather than a functional improvement.  And no one in this thread has yet shown a verifiable demonstrated need, rather than rationalized assumptions.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #942 on: December 05, 2013, 10:03:47 PM »

You're a machine ofreen.  ;D  I park mine when my knees get cold so like me most won't be riding in 19d weather. In this case you need an oil heater! 145,000 miles is awesome man. (actually mine is pushing 100K)

Some people think I must be a masochist riding when it is that cold.  But I dress for it and the bike has the Windjammer. In reality, I am warmer on the bike than if I go outside and get into the cold car that doesn't really get warm until I'm halfway to work. Hard to get people to believe that, though.  What I don't like is for the bike to sit all day in the parking lot in 20 degree temps, and then go to start it.  We won't start a similarly air-cooled airplane engine in those temps without preheating it (unless you have to). 

How is your bike doing at 100K?  If it is still holding up and basically sound, it will probably do as well as mine. 
Greg
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #943 on: December 05, 2013, 10:27:39 PM »
Screw oil coolers. I want an on bike oil cooker. I want to ride for 30 min and then have some chicken strips when I stop.

That's easy mate, ride it hard on a hot day and your oil will be way hot enough to cook dat chooken! ;D
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #944 on: December 06, 2013, 03:05:10 AM »

You're a machine ofreen.  ;D  I park mine when my knees get cold so like me most won't be riding in 19d weather. In this case you need an oil heater! 145,000 miles is awesome man. (actually mine is pushing 100K)

Some people think I must be a masochist riding when it is that cold.  But I dress for it and the bike has the Windjammer. In reality, I am warmer on the bike than if I go outside and get into the cold car that doesn't really get warm until I'm halfway to work. Hard to get people to believe that, though.  What I don't like is for the bike to sit all day in the parking lot in 20 degree temps, and then go to start it.  We won't start a similarly air-cooled airplane engine in those temps without preheating it (unless you have to). 

How is your bike doing at 100K?  If it is still holding up and basically sound, it will probably do as well as mine

I bought it new and it's still like new but has seen little use the last number of years while I'm racing...I work where I live so I just walk out the door instead of riding to work. The engine has been freshened through the years.

Offline K_Kalynuik

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #945 on: December 06, 2013, 08:04:24 AM »
 I initially purchased one of Terry's oil coolers for my CB592 build. After running with and without it, I found no difference in temps. I have a digital temp guage installed and monitor it on my Motogadget Guage. Like TT said it just made oil changes more difficult and it eventually sprung a leak that made me remove it. Unless I race the bike I don't plan on installing it again. Mostly because of the reasons TT said. Listen to what he has to say.
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Offline heffay

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #946 on: December 06, 2013, 08:06:12 AM »
If we removed all posts from this thread, except for TTs, it would only be 2 pages shorter.   ::)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #947 on: December 06, 2013, 02:18:46 PM »
I initially purchased one of Terry's oil coolers for my CB592 build. After running with and without it, I found no difference in temps. I have a digital temp guage installed and monitor it on my Motogadget Guage. Like TT said it just made oil changes more difficult and it eventually sprung a leak that made me remove it. Unless I race the bike I don't plan on installing it again. Mostly because of the reasons TT said. Listen to what he has to say.

Geez, you should have let me know mate, that would have been my first warranty claim in 13 years and several hundred units sold? Where did it "Spring a leak" from? Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #948 on: December 06, 2013, 02:48:14 PM »
I initially purchased one of Terry's oil coolers for my CB592 build. After running with and without it, I found no difference in temps. I have a digital temp guage installed and monitor it on my Motogadget Guage. Like TT said it just made oil changes more difficult and it eventually sprung a leak that made me remove it. Unless I race the bike I don't plan on installing it again. Mostly because of the reasons TT said. Listen to what he has to say.

Dumb question I know but were you monitoring the temp of the engine or the temp of the oil? No arguments/debate here, just asking.
Scott


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Oil Cooler Thread
« Reply #949 on: December 06, 2013, 03:03:46 PM »
If you use an oil cooler system with a thermostat on a standard use bike, there is a high risk that the thermostat will never or very seldom open.  This allows the oil in the cooler to stagnate, collect water, and build up amino acids.  Then, if or when conditions are actually encountered where the thermostat opens, all that contaminated oil w/acid contained in the oil cooler finds each and every bearing journal in the engine to munch on.  Shortened service life.

Absolute rubbish, if the oil is in the cooler and the thermostat is closed please explain how any moisture would get in there, you are now suggesting that oil sitting in its bottle with the lid tight will absorb moisture and thats crap. You are also simply dismissing every bike manufactured buy all the Japanese manufacturers fitted with coolers stock with these unfounded statements, Most, if not everything you say here is your OPINION and filled with assumptions , you should state that clearly... One thing you forget, a hell of a lot of people have run oil coolers on these bikes for years with NONE of your perceived repercussions, would you like to explain where that fits into your assumptions..?  Why don't you just tell everyone that you don't like them and leave it at that instead of the usual demonizing of things you don't like....

I initially purchased one of Terry's oil coolers for my CB592 build. After running with and without it, I found no difference in temps. I have a digital temp guage installed and monitor it on my Motogadget Guage. Like TT said it just made oil changes more difficult and it eventually sprung a leak that made me remove it. Unless I race the bike I don't plan on installing it again. Mostly because of the reasons TT said. Listen to what he has to say.

Well there you go, one person didn't like it so thats irrefutable proof  {no detailed information necessary :o} ... ::) 
I never considered going to see an electrical engineer for engine advice, maybe i'm doing it all wrong.... ;D
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.