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Author Topic: Marissa's 1972 CB500  (Read 28260 times)

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Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #425 on: May 27, 2019, 05:10:50 pm »
None of the hardware stores near me carry brass in a size that would work.

I ended up getting an OEM new petcock from David Silver Spares and this new valve is doing the same exact thing as the old one.

Additionally, I confirmed that this whole fuel issue is partially related to the petcock. The lack of fuel being transferred to one bank of the carbs is obviously a major issue, but the carbs that DO get fuel and dumping it is another part.
I got reproduction floats from 4into1.com and though they are pricey for repro I will say it doesn't seem like there's too many variables for it to make or break the project and the new hardware operates like a dream in comparison. It was definitely worth it. Ever since I replaced those, no fuel dumping, no leaks, no draining into the overflow tubes!

While I waited for the new petcock to come in the mail, I decided just to use a plastic jug gas tank meant for use with carb synchronization, and see how the new floats performed. I connected it to both banks just using a plastic T fitting and sure enough I was finally able to get the bike stable and idling confidently.

Got my first test ride in and noticed a few issues. 1, forgot to tighten down and adjust the clutch cable, so I was only able to get it to hold gear shifts downhill. I only tested 1 and 2. 2, I made new fender brackets to mount my fender closer to the tire and it intermittently rubs the tire. I have been watching and checking and it doesn't seem to be the brackets or the fenders moving, so now I am worried the wheel is perhaps bent or if its not mounted evenly? But it looks even and the axle looks fine in the fork body mounts. Perhaps the fork bodies are rotated a bit and not facing perfectly left and right?? I had these wheels balanced at a reputable shop so I'd like to think if there was any chance of a bent rim they would have noticed and said something.

But most importantly of all, another leak has appeared... Right side crank seal.

Looks like the seal itself ovaled out. You can't really see it in the picture, but I could see the inner diameter of the seal at the bottom of the crank snout.



You can see the buildup here as well as it also trailing straight down the casing.




I posted about it on some FB pages and asked a few forum members for advice and right now, we are going to try reinstalling the seal without splitting the cases. Enough people told me they had to do this job plenty of times on their 500/550, so I'm willing to try it first. We have high quality seal installation tools at work and they are letting me borrow them for the job so I'm hopeful.

I ordered 2 new OE seals from David Silver Spares so that if one method doesn't work, we have an extra one waiting. I also ordered a left one just in case, haven't inspected that side yet though. We removed the failed seal using the wood screw trick.

Here's what it looked like before we cleaned it. I used Q tips and gas and brake cleaner on the Q tips and cleaned them to the point that no more dirt is appearing on the cotton. Will reclean when seal is here.



The seal kit I used to assemble the bike was the kit from 4into1.com in case anyone is wondering. I ordered it out of convenience/ being noob friendly, however if there's anyone building their CB and reading this I would recommend just taking the part numbers out of the description of the kit and ordering OE. I don't know what caused this failure but I think failure would have been less likely had this seal had a lip like OE does.



1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

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Offline 754

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #426 on: May 27, 2019, 10:50:08 pm »
Try a hobby or model shop for brass tube, and lots on ebay. .
He'll you could probably cut all but 7/16  of the brass tube and slip stiff clear fuel line on it, not like it will bend and droop.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 10:53:07 pm by 754 »
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #427 on: May 28, 2019, 04:44:37 am »
Good luck with the seal, really pulling for it to work.

If you raise the front and spin the wheel does it reliably rub the fender in the same spot? I think normally motorcycle wheels are statically balanced so one might not notice anything that’s wrong since it’s not spinning fast. Put a dial indicator or even bend a copper wire to act as a pointer and spin the wheel to check runout and hop of the rim. 

Offline SF

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #428 on: May 28, 2019, 06:00:30 am »
Possible flat spot from sitting.....


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Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #429 on: June 09, 2019, 06:53:53 pm »
Here's where we are at:

New crank seal installed
New leak found

Still having petcock issues
Carb jetting issues

Finally got my seals from David Silver Spares... They were definitely manufactured at different times or different factories as the sizing of the font and the arrows are quite different. I could tell these were quite old too so I was not the most confident in these seals, nonetheless I installed one for now and with about 10 minutes of run time it hasn't failed yet.









Come to find out, the seal was not the only leak in that area...





Turns out it's leaking at the cases seam as well. Apparently I did not put enough gasket maker on in this section. What a grave mistake.

So now the current plan of attack is Permatex Indian Gasket Maker. I cleaned and dried the seam thoroughly, then applied a dab of the gasket maker to the seam. I'm still letting it cure, it's been about a day so far. If this does not work, I guess the next step up is to try RTV, or JB Weld. I'm disappointed that this is such a silly mistake, and I'm hoping I can do SOMETHING to prevent myself from needing to split the cases again.



While the bike was sitting pretty, I decided to pull off the gas tank to look further into the fuel delivery issue.
I started by cleaning out the tank with white vinegar. I didn't buy enough to fill the tank entirely because I figured if I just kept sloshing it around it would be good enough. I learned from this method that the vinegar will cause surface rust almost instantly, so I made more work for myself than I needed to.

After cleaning it, putting gas back into it, and purging the system, I think it's definitely better than it was before. From what I could see in the tank beforehand, it looked pretty clean. But now that I saw what came out of it, I'm definitely glad I cleaned it out, even if I now have mild surface rust on the inside that I'll readdress at some point. I don't know if it is perfect at this point though as I am still having intermittent flow issues with both fittings.













Here's how it was sitting in my little nook in the garage this Saturday:



Pulled the plugs off and trimmed down the excess plug wire finally, and as suspected they're quite rich, and of course 1 & 4 are the ones with the most soot because 3 & 4 haven't been getting a whole lot of fuel to fire on.





Going to order 100s definitely and maybe 40s? (Can't remember what size I'm at currently, I have to go through my orders) Not going to pull the carbs off though until I know I have the petcock issue fixed. Focusing on one step at a time with the fuel delivery.

1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

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Offline LastChancer88

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #430 on: June 10, 2019, 12:48:16 pm »
While the bike was sitting pretty, I decided to pull off the gas tank to look further into the fuel delivery issue.
I started by cleaning out the tank with white vinegar. I didn't buy enough to fill the tank entirely because I figured if I just kept sloshing it around it would be good enough. I learned from this method that the vinegar will cause surface rust almost instantly, so I made more work for myself than I needed to.


I just did the same thing a few weeks ago.  Let a spare tank sit for a week with white vinegar sloshing it every now and then, emptied it out and looked great!.  Sloshed some gas in it, but I wasn't ready to swap my tanks yet and let it sit for a day.  BOOM.  insta-rust.  I sympathize. 
1973 Honda CB500 Four
1973 Suzuki TC125

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #431 on: June 11, 2019, 04:39:45 am »
Nice Marissa, glad the seal is holding up so far. As for the case leak, whatever works I guess. If I were you I’d fix it correctly in the winter.

Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #432 on: June 14, 2019, 05:27:11 pm »
Got 100 and 40 jets in today. To start, I just threw in the 100s in case the 100s with the 40s would be too lean.

Cleaned my spark plugs, yadah yadah yadah. I was very certain I would be able to ride tonight. I’ve been getting closer and closer and closer, and now my electronic ignition seems to have failed. I’m not getting power at the plugs, not getting it at the coils, not getting it at the coil wires. The LED is lighting up, I tried resetting it but it’s not giving charge.

I am super frustrated. It’s a Daytona ignition, I don’t see a lot of people running that system and maybe this is why? I got it off of David Silver Spares about a year ago. I keep having issues with products from them and it’s becoming distasteful. Should I just convert to a Dyna system? Charlie’s place? ?????

Any insight on electronic ignition is appreciated.

Thanks guys.
1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

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Offline RAF122S

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #433 on: June 14, 2019, 05:35:31 pm »
HondaMan's ignition uses your points and works very well with virtually no wear to the points and no need for the condensers to be connected, were it to ever fail a few minutes with a screwdriver and switching some connections and you are back running on original points system in very little time. Not that Mark's electronic ignition boxes have issues they are very reliable. Mark can even recommend a source of new 5ohm coils that have replaceable wires for less than $100, I think they are $70 or 80
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Offline calj737

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #434 on: June 15, 2019, 04:31:48 am »
I’m not getting power at the plugs, not getting it at the coils, not getting it at the coil wires. The LED is lighting up, I tried resetting it but it’s not giving charge.
Sounds like a classic problem of the RUN/KILL switch wiring. With all the back and forth of fiddling, it would be very likely that you have simply disrupted a power connection.

So, before you pull your locks from their roots, grab a multimeter and start probing the BLACK wire from your key to the RH control. The BLK/WHT from RH to coil. Got power? Trace the power feed to the Daytona and verify it has power with the key ON. I bet you'll be in boots and helmet within 30 minutes  :)
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Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #435 on: June 16, 2019, 05:51:14 pm »
Wiring issue fixed, seems that a connection in the seat pan came loose. Weird.

Still having issues. What's interesting is that my floats are acting different... Looks like they're still letting more fuel into the bowls than needed. However, now they are dumping significant amounts of fuel from the drain lines. I'm not sure if they are just building up more fuel because the lines are cleaned out now, or what, but I need to adjust floats AGAIN. I'm going to make a tool out of a thick plastic to measure the floats as accurately as possible because I don't know why this is a reoccurring issue. Before I was just using my micrometer to measure but perhaps there was visual error with that technique.

At this point in time, the bike is no longer holding idle or anything. It's popping a lot and making a lot of noises I'm not comfortable with. I'm assuming a lot of this has to do with the fact that the bowls are filling up more than beforehand. But I think there could be a few variables:

-Bad gas? The gas is a darker color than it was last week.

-Ignition timing? Perhaps I'm going to need to advance it or retard it a few degrees. However, I think this is something I'll check once I can get it to hold idle on it's own. I was able to get it to hold idle a few weeks ago with the current ignition setting so I think I should be able to get it back there.

-Jets still too rich? Haven't put in the 40s yet, think I'm going to and order 38s as back up. I have so many extra jets now, lol. While I'm at it I might order new fuel line; I ordered cloth covered but this stuff honestly sucks and is already getting hard and cracked. I could have sworn this was Buna line from DCC but it sure doesn't seem like it. Anyone have recommendations?

-Flow issues... I cleaned out the tank quickly as stated prior, and of course the next day it started going through just one fitting again. I now have a gas/vinegar mixture with triangular media in it to exfoliate it hopefully. Gonna leave it in the tank for 3 days then drain the system as fast as possible, then do a wd40/oil wash.

-Obviously float adjustment

I just remembered earlier when I was looking at my line setup that OE had a bracket to keep the line to 3&4 flowing well, so I'm gonna look for that to add back on the bike. I'm also thinking about moving my needles up a clip.

I found that my oil pan is seeping... Not dripping anything but I saw that it's building up on the edges... More to add to the list. Developed exhaust leaks today so I had to retorque down the exhaust clamps...

I guess this is somewhat in the right direction.
1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

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Offline jgger

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #436 on: June 16, 2019, 08:49:30 pm »
On the carbs, don't do anything else until you have the float level squared away. You will start a major league tail chase other wise.

I think it was Ofreen that said he does his floats with the bowl off and uses a plastic dish so you can see just where the fuel shuts off, or if it does shut off. IIRC he does then on the bike, but I could be wrong about that last part.
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Offline calj737

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #437 on: June 17, 2019, 03:56:16 am »
Stop using vinegar in your tank. Vinegar is an acid and will continue to consume whatever it contacts, until it ultimately eats through the steel of the tank.

Yes, its a cheap means of eating rust, but it is also eating steel. And does nothing for leaving a protective surface finish behind. Instead use some type of MetalRescue product.

Also, for safety' sake, check your oil. If the carbs are overflowing heavily, it is possible that gas has found its way into the oil past the rings. Gas in oil destroys bearings promptly. Just pull the dipstick and smell it. If there's no noticeable odor, you're fine. But double-check.

I discourage setting floats by measurement. Instead use the Clear Tube method with the carb bank mounted on the bench. Works perfectly every time.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #438 on: June 17, 2019, 05:07:55 am »
First, I would do the clear tube method for the fuel height, not measuring the floats like normal. You can unscrew your bowl drain screws, heat up some fuel tubing and thread it in there. I’d check this and adjust on the bench. But as posted above, a clear plastic container rubber banded on in place of the bowl works well too just to see what the level is. You want it about 3mm from the bowl seam.

I don’t know the Daytona ignition but can you static time it with a test light?

I’m sure the gas is fine.

I use the clear blue fuel line. Many on the forum use yellow Tygon. I’ve never heard of the cloth covered kind. Seems a little over the top. I like any clear kind so I can see fuel flowing.

Also keep your battery on the charger. Times like this is when it starts to drain because you’re cranking the motor a lot and frustration happens when it won’t crank anymore :)

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #439 on: June 17, 2019, 08:42:39 am »
+1 for clear tube float check. For me, it put to rest any doubts I had.

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Offline SF

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #440 on: June 17, 2019, 08:46:42 pm »
This bike is testing you....keep up the great work. I always enjoy your updates and the support you get. This place is really awesome.


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Offline 754

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #441 on: June 18, 2019, 02:06:56 am »
 The petcock will often flow easier on one, soon as the first fills, then the other one flows like crazy.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Scott S

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #442 on: June 18, 2019, 04:53:50 pm »
 And get some 5.5mm fuel line and never look back. OEM Honda line is cheap.
 Do you have the fuel line routed through the holes in the main bracket?
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #443 on: June 19, 2019, 09:18:56 pm »
If de-rusting a tank with vinegar, the tank must be filled completely with it. If not it will rust a lot where not covered with vinegar. Drain it quickly, flush rich with water, end up with oil-naptha mix to make it thin and cover the entire tank inside to not let it rust.
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Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #444 on: June 23, 2019, 07:10:28 pm »
Here's what happened this weekend:

Clear tube test:
Took my old drain plugs, sawed the head off, then attached clear tube. Leaked a little but still proved results.
Found that all aside from carb #1 are way off, even set at 22mm. Ugh!


So I set them all to 25mm thinking this would move the stop line down 3mm. This didn't work. I thought this made sense but maybe I would need to go in the opposite direction and move it to 19mm?

I looked up more threads for float height and found a lot of 750 owners saying sometimes the float valve needs to wear into the seat? Is this also applied to the 500s?

It seems like perhaps that could be my issue. I noticed on #3 the line definitely had a harsh stop at some point, then after a second or two, began to fill up more past the 22mm line. I despise working with fuel and this part of the project is really testing my patience.

I'm assuming my overflow tubes are not the issue since I'm seeing the fuel go way past the overflow line. I guess once I finally get the fuel to stop in the right place I can check off yes or no to that one.

Made a float gauge; did this mostly so I could see if the floats were level, and that one float wasn't higher than the other on a carb.
Verified all floats were straight.



The vinegar definitely was a bad idea... I filled the tank all the way and it still corroded the metal that was covered... I bought a spray gel rust converter from Walmart, think it was the Rustoleum brand and it worked great to fix it. Flushed it out with WD40 and gas, still flash rusted, but the flash rust was more like flat black oxide, not mushy build up.

So it looks not as great but it's cleaner and the fuel is finally flowing out of both lines now. There is nothing building up in the petcock as of current so I'm calling it a win for now. Once the bike is finally good to go I want to get the POR full kit and line the tank as well. With this stuff I was able to clean the inside of the cap too which was black tar, so that was pretty satisfying at least.



The only thing that is going forward and on a positive note is that my boyfriend matched my Candy Garnet Brown and painted my side covers! I had him do a light fade to match my gas tank and I'm hyped to eventually see these in person.

1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

Instagram- marissasimos

Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #445 on: June 23, 2019, 07:22:12 pm »
Forgot to mention- I'm also wondering if the condition of the bodies at the main jets is causing leaks due to corrosion? I'm not really sure how I could verify that or fix it. On #2 I can wiggle the main jet slightly. None of the others are like that. But I'm still wondering if it will still leak through.

Can grab pics to show condition if that helps.
1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

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Offline wolf550

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #446 on: June 23, 2019, 09:48:48 pm »
That is one fancy float level gauge!
here's mine!
74' CB550
71' CB500/550

Offline Scott S

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #447 on: June 24, 2019, 04:57:32 pm »
 Those are F model side covers. Unless you modified  the frame, only one side will fit on your 500K.
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Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #448 on: June 24, 2019, 05:54:41 pm »
Those are F model side covers. Unless you modified  the frame, only one side will fit on your 500K.

I modified them to fit. I got them so they fit in the frame triangles closer to the inside so I can clear my legs and flat foot.
1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

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Offline Marissa

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Re: Marissa's 1972 CB500
« Reply #449 on: June 30, 2019, 04:54:46 pm »
Also, for safety' sake, check your oil. If the carbs are overflowing heavily, it is possible that gas has found its way into the oil past the rings. Gas in oil destroys bearings promptly. Just pull the dipstick and smell it. If there's no noticeable odor, you're fine. But double-check.


I smelled my oil and I thought there was an odor of gas, so I changed it.

- Oil is dark
- Oil is metallic
- maybe 1mm of sludge build up on bottom of pan, along with one lone M6 thread. Interesting.

New Honda oil, new oil filter, cleaned everything, pick up tube looked good, pulled it to make sure, etc.

Now, I have no oil pressure.

On the bright side, I took my carbs apart over the course of the last week, and after having many issues with float needles, I finally got them to close the seal by lapping them with the brass housing. So no more leaks.

But now my engine is dead.

What am I doing now? I am very unsure. As of right now, there is $6,000+ into this bike. To be in the realization that this engine is seemingly already dead with just 30-50 minutes of run time, is extremely depressing. Is this something I can fix? Yes. Can it be fixed between now and the end of summer? I am unsure. Do I want to attempt to fix it again and continue to dump more money into it? I am unsure of this as well.

At the end of the day, I don't have money right now to fix it. I mapped out my earnings for this summer and I have no extra cash to throw at a gamble right now.

I have the oil pump apart and the bike mostly together otherwise. My game plan is to:

Compression test it

Depending on readings, do a leak down test

Presumably, at the very least I expect I will need to re-ring the bike. I'm expecting my bearings are shot, potentially cam as well. The scoring on the front of the oil pump is concerning but the insides of the rotor seemed okay. I will take pictures and measure eventually. Engine will likely need to be honed, crank will likely need to be polished. Perhaps piston skirts could even have scored?

It hurts a lot to suddenly be at this phase. What felt so close is now likely another year, and a bit more money away. I could have had a brand new triumph and nearly paid it off by now. Most of all, it's simply the feeling of failure.


Here's photos of the carnage:

















But again, on the bright side, I verified my solder is good on the float bowls, and I finally got the float needles to seat.





Yay.
1984 Nissan 300zx - sold
2016 Ford Fiesta ST - daily
1972 Honda CB500 - infinite work in progress

Instagram- marissasimos

 

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