Topic: Marissa's 1972 CB500

[Marissa]

Wiring issue fixed, seems that a connection in the seat pan came loose. Weird.

Still having issues. What's interesting is that my floats are acting different... Looks like they're still letting more fuel into the bowls than needed. However, now they are dumping significant amounts of fuel from the drain lines. I'm not sure if they are just building up more fuel because the lines are cleaned out now, or what, but I need to adjust floats AGAIN. I'm going to make a tool out of a thick plastic to measure the floats as accurately as possible because I don't know why this is a reoccurring issue. Before I was just using my micrometer to measure but perhaps there was visual error with that technique.

At this point in time, the bike is no longer holding idle or anything. It's popping a lot and making a lot of noises I'm not comfortable with. I'm assuming a lot of this has to do with the fact that the bowls are filling up more than beforehand. But I think there could be a few variables:

-Bad gas? The gas is a darker color than it was last week.

-Ignition timing? Perhaps I'm going to need to advance it or retard it a few degrees. However, I think this is something I'll check once I can get it to hold idle on it's own. I was able to get it to hold idle a few weeks ago with the current ignition setting so I think I should be able to get it back there.

-Jets still too rich? Haven't put in the 40s yet, think I'm going to and order 38s as back up. I have so many extra jets now, lol. While I'm at it I might order new fuel line; I ordered cloth covered but this stuff honestly sucks and is already getting hard and cracked. I could have sworn this was Buna line from DCC but it sure doesn't seem like it. Anyone have recommendations?

-Flow issues... I cleaned out the tank quickly as stated prior, and of course the next day it started going through just one fitting again. I now have a gas/vinegar mixture with triangular media in it to exfoliate it hopefully. Gonna leave it in the tank for 3 days then drain the system as fast as possible, then do a wd40/oil wash.

-Obviously float adjustment

I just remembered earlier when I was looking at my line setup that OE had a bracket to keep the line to 3&4 flowing well, so I'm gonna look for that to add back on the bike. I'm also thinking about moving my needles up a clip.

I found that my oil pan is seeping... Not dripping anything but I saw that it's building up on the edges... More to add to the list. Developed exhaust leaks today so I had to retorque down the exhaust clamps...

I guess this is somewhat in the right direction.

[jgger]

On the carbs, don't do anything else until you have the float level squared away. You will start a major league tail chase other wise.

I think it was Ofreen that said he does his floats with the bowl off and uses a plastic dish so you can see just where the fuel shuts off, or if it does shut off. IIRC he does then on the bike, but I could be wrong about that last part.

[DaveBarbier]

First, I would do the clear tube method for the fuel height, not measuring the floats like normal. You can unscrew your bowl drain screws, heat up some fuel tubing and thread it in there. I’d check this and adjust on the bench. But as posted above, a clear plastic container rubber banded on in place of the bowl works well too just to see what the level is. You want it about 3mm from the bowl seam.

I don’t know the Daytona ignition but can you static time it with a test light?

I’m sure the gas is fine.

I use the clear blue fuel line. Many on the forum use yellow Tygon. I’ve never heard of the cloth covered kind. Seems a little over the top. I like any clear kind so I can see fuel flowing.

Also keep your battery on the charger. Times like this is when it starts to drain because you’re cranking the motor a lot and frustration happens when it won’t crank anymore

[MauiK3]

+1 for clear tube float check. For me, it put to rest any doubts I had.

[SF]

This bike is testing you....keep up the great work. I always enjoy your updates and the support you get. This place is really awesome.


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[754]

 The petcock will often flow easier on one, soon as the first fills, then the other one flows like crazy.

[Scott S]

 And get some 5.5mm fuel line and never look back. OEM Honda line is cheap.
 Do you have the fuel line routed through the holes in the main bracket?

[PeWe]

If de-rusting a tank with vinegar, the tank must be filled completely with it. If not it will rust a lot where not covered with vinegar. Drain it quickly, flush rich with water, end up with oil-naptha mix to make it thin and cover the entire tank inside to not let it rust.

[Marissa]

Here's what happened this weekend:

Clear tube test:
Took my old drain plugs, sawed the head off, then attached clear tube. Leaked a little but still proved results.
Found that all aside from carb #1 are way off, even set at 22mm. Ugh!


So I set them all to 25mm thinking this would move the stop line down 3mm. This didn't work. I thought this made sense but maybe I would need to go in the opposite direction and move it to 19mm?

I looked up more threads for float height and found a lot of 750 owners saying sometimes the float valve needs to wear into the seat? Is this also applied to the 500s?

It seems like perhaps that could be my issue. I noticed on #3 the line definitely had a harsh stop at some point, then after a second or two, began to fill up more past the 22mm line. I despise working with fuel and this part of the project is really testing my patience.

I'm assuming my overflow tubes are not the issue since I'm seeing the fuel go way past the overflow line. I guess once I finally get the fuel to stop in the right place I can check off yes or no to that one.

Made a float gauge; did this mostly so I could see if the floats were level, and that one float wasn't higher than the other on a carb.
Verified all floats were straight.



The vinegar definitely was a bad idea... I filled the tank all the way and it still corroded the metal that was covered... I bought a spray gel rust converter from Walmart, think it was the Rustoleum brand and it worked great to fix it. Flushed it out with WD40 and gas, still flash rusted, but the flash rust was more like flat black oxide, not mushy build up.

So it looks not as great but it's cleaner and the fuel is finally flowing out of both lines now. There is nothing building up in the petcock as of current so I'm calling it a win for now. Once the bike is finally good to go I want to get the POR full kit and line the tank as well. With this stuff I was able to clean the inside of the cap too which was black tar, so that was pretty satisfying at least.



The only thing that is going forward and on a positive note is that my boyfriend matched my Candy Garnet Brown and painted my side covers! I had him do a light fade to match my gas tank and I'm hyped to eventually see these in person.

[Marissa]

Forgot to mention- I'm also wondering if the condition of the bodies at the main jets is causing leaks due to corrosion? I'm not really sure how I could verify that or fix it. On #2 I can wiggle the main jet slightly. None of the others are like that. But I'm still wondering if it will still leak through.

Can grab pics to show condition if that helps.

[wolf550]

That is one fancy float level gauge!
here's mine!

[Scott S]

 Those are F model side covers. Unless you modified  the frame, only one side will fit on your 500K.

[Marissa]

Those are F model side covers. Unless you modified  the frame, only one side will fit on your 500K.

I modified them to fit. I got them so they fit in the frame triangles closer to the inside so I can clear my legs and flat foot.

[Marissa]

Also, for safety' sake, check your oil. If the carbs are overflowing heavily, it is possible that gas has found its way into the oil past the rings. Gas in oil destroys bearings promptly. Just pull the dipstick and smell it. If there's no noticeable odor, you're fine. But double-check.

I smelled my oil and I thought there was an odor of gas, so I changed it.

- Oil is dark
- Oil is metallic
- maybe 1mm of sludge build up on bottom of pan, along with one lone M6 thread. Interesting.

New Honda oil, new oil filter, cleaned everything, pick up tube looked good, pulled it to make sure, etc.

Now, I have no oil pressure.

On the bright side, I took my carbs apart over the course of the last week, and after having many issues with float needles, I finally got them to close the seal by lapping them with the brass housing. So no more leaks.

But now my engine is dead.

What am I doing now? I am very unsure. As of right now, there is $6,000+ into this bike. To be in the realization that this engine is seemingly already dead with just 30-50 minutes of run time, is extremely depressing. Is this something I can fix? Yes. Can it be fixed between now and the end of summer? I am unsure. Do I want to attempt to fix it again and continue to dump more money into it? I am unsure of this as well.

At the end of the day, I don't have money right now to fix it. I mapped out my earnings for this summer and I have no extra cash to throw at a gamble right now.

I have the oil pump apart and the bike mostly together otherwise. My game plan is to:

Compression test it

Depending on readings, do a leak down test

Presumably, at the very least I expect I will need to re-ring the bike. I'm expecting my bearings are shot, potentially cam as well. The scoring on the front of the oil pump is concerning but the insides of the rotor seemed okay. I will take pictures and measure eventually. Engine will likely need to be honed, crank will likely need to be polished. Perhaps piston skirts could even have scored?

It hurts a lot to suddenly be at this phase. What felt so close is now likely another year, and a bit more money away. I could have had a brand new triumph and nearly paid it off by now. Most of all, it's simply the feeling of failure.


Here's photos of the carnage:

















But again, on the bright side, I verified my solder is good on the float bowls, and I finally got the float needles to seat.





Yay.

[DaveBarbier]

I don’t see why you think the engine is dead.

First, remind me what you did for the rebuild. Was this re-ringed and bored or honed? Is this the first oil change since the rebuild?

You might want to cut open your oil filter and see what you find in there. Don’t grind or saw it open because you’ll introduce metal flakes. Puncture and cut it open.

Do you have electric start on this?

[Marissa]

I don’t see why you think the engine is dead.

First, remind me what you did for the rebuild. Was this re-ringed and bored or honed? Is this the first oil change since the rebuild?

You might want to cut open your oil filter and see what you find in there. Don’t grind or saw it open because you’ll introduce metal flakes. Puncture and cut it open.

Do you have electric start on this?

Reringed, and honed. First oil change.

Electric start is on. I don't think I have good legs to kick it over with, as when I kick over the bike I can never get it to start like that. This has always been the case. CB500, Cb550, never got any engine to start with a kick with these legs. I don't know if it's me or if I didn't set up the kickstarter well enough, and the Cb500 engine, was well... a basket case, so who really knows why that one didn't work well either.

When I tried starting it today, it spun over very fast. Compression did not sound like it there anymore. I no longer hear the compression "whoosh" but just the turning of the crank and the starter.

[DaveBarbier]

I don’t see why you think the engine is dead.

First, remind me what you did for the rebuild. Was this re-ringed and bored or honed? Is this the first oil change since the rebuild?

You might want to cut open your oil filter and see what you find in there. Don’t grind or saw it open because you’ll introduce metal flakes. Puncture and cut it open.

Do you have electric start on this?

Reringed, and honed. First oil change.

Electric start is on. I don't think I have good legs to kick it over with, as when I kick over the bike I can never get it to start like that. This has always been the case. CB500, Cb550, never got any engine to start with a kick with these legs. I don't know if it's me or if I didn't set up the kickstarter well enough, and the Cb500 engine, was well... a basket case, so who really knows why that one didn't work well either.

When I tried starting it today, it spun over very fast. Compression did not sound like it there anymore. I no longer hear the compression "whoosh" but just the turning of the crank and the starter.

For the first oil change after a re-ringing you’re going to get metal and some sludge in the filter and oil pan. I don’t know if that’s excessive, but sludge is normal.

Ok, just checking how you’re starting it. Your kicker is probably fine, it’s more likely that you’re minute.

Do a compression check and report back. If you’re low, add some oil to the cylinders and see if it improves. If you suspect the cam bearings are bad you can remove the valve cover and have a look at the cam.

Are you suspecting the oil thinning out with gas as the cause of low compression? (I’m not conceding that you actually do yet) Because I don’t follow that.

[Marissa]

Compression test results;

1- 30psi
2- 35psi
3- 33psi
4- 31psi

I’m not sure how accurate these readings are because it was done with a harbor freight tester which has roughly 3 feet of hosing on it. I cleaned out the oil pump, checked for scoring and there’s not much on the rotor inside, and it’s still plenty in spec in both the OD and ID. When I was checking for compression tonight I saw the oil light turn off so we have pressure again. Regardless, I ordered a Marshall oil pressure gauge and I will install it to confirm pressure.

I ordered a borescope and I think I will order a leak down tester as well. I took off the valve cover and the cam actually looks okay. It is definitely polished at the contact points at the lobes- but I sort of expect them to still be in spec. I will likely measure them anyways. Cam chain is tight and seems in spec.

Perhaps I can fix this faster than I thought, depending on how salvageable it is. Will post more pictures soon.

Thank you to everyone who messaged me with support. My dad says I owe it to myself, and all of those around me to finish it. So I will continue bit by bit.

[jgger]

Marissa, you are the envy of many on this forum for your persistence on this project,  you have put many guys to shame! That being said now take a deep breath and dont freak out.

1.  Honda made these motors brutally durable.
2.  You have done alot with this bike, but I doubt you killed it.
3.  IIRC awhile back were you having clutch issues?
              Could be the source of some sludge.
4.  You had a boat load of bad fuel which combined with the float level also could lead to sludge.
5.  3 ft of hose on the compression tester will yield low readings.
               So will a closed throttle and/or closed choke during the test.
6.  A fresh (as in rings not seated) bore will also be a tad lower.
7.   The first and maybe even the 2nd and 3rd oil change will have glitter in it.
8.   Alot of that crap in the pan could be from excess sealer that has washed free.

I don't think you have an issue to worry about.  Your eye for detail and your quest for perfection are taking you places you don't need to go.

Soooooo, if the float level is sorted, change the oil and filter and enjoy the fruit of your labor.

Go Girl!👍

I forgot, your Dad is a wise man, take his advise!

[DaveBarbier]

Marissa, you are the envy of many on this forum for your persistence on this project,  you have put many guys to shame! That being said now take a deep breath and dont freak out.

1.  Honda made these motors brutally durable.
2.  You have done alot with this bike, but I doubt you killed it.
3.  IIRC awhile back were you having clutch issues?
              Could be the source of some sludge.
4.  You had a boat load of bad fuel which combined with the float level also could lead to sludge.
5.  3 ft of hose on the compression tester will yield low readings.
               So will a closed throttle and/or closed choke during the test.
6.  A fresh (as in rings not seated) bore will also be a tad lower.
7.   The first and maybe even the 2nd and 3rd oil change will have glitter in it.
8.   Alot of that crap in the pan could be from excess sealer that has washed free.

I don't think you have an issue to worry about.  Your eye for detail and your quest for perfection are taking you places you don't need to go.

Soooooo, if the float level is sorted, change the oil and filter and enjoy the fruit of your labor.

Go Girl!

I forgot, your Dad is a wise man, take his advise!

Totally agree

[Marks78]

^^^^ Well put, well said!!  Not only are you an inspiration and the envy of many on this forum but to others as well.  I have a 17 year old daughter who is inspired by all you have accomplished and continue to accomplish. She doesn't ride, yet, but I share your journey with her and it is meaningful to her.
So, take that deep breath and down the road you go one step at a time.  And thanks for sharing!   

[Marissa]

2.  You have done alot with this bike, but I doubt you killed it.
3.  IIRC awhile back were you having clutch issues?
              Could be the source of some sludge.
4.  You had a boat load of bad fuel which combined with the float level also could lead to sludge.
5.  3 ft of hose on the compression tester will yield low readings.
               So will a closed throttle and/or closed choke during the test.
6.  A fresh (as in rings not seated) bore will also be a tad lower.
7.   The first and maybe even the 2nd and 3rd oil change will have glitter in it.
8.   Alot of that crap in the pan could be from excess sealer that has washed free.

Yes, I had clutch issues in the past. At some point I accidentally put an extra clutch pack in so that would make sense. Also, I just remembered I used HondaLube, or whatever that Honda lubricant is that is high in Molybendum on the cam and rockers. (Which is grey and sludgy)

And yeah, last night I totally forgot to open the choke and throttle for testing.

Here's pictures and videos of what's going on:



This definitely looks like a mix of oil, Hondalube, and a little dust.





The left bank has the worst scoring, but realistically visually I don't think that really looks bad.

The contact areas on the lobes look a little broken in, but again, no scoring. Valve lash was adjusted back in November, and I checked in March I believe.

"

[jgger]

See, there ya go! Now get that puppy on the road.👌

[DaveBarbier]

I laughed out loud at the “Ahhhh...yeeeaaahh!”

[flatlander]

LOL yes that was classic 
big relief! so now that it's all good fire that thing up, we all want to hear it run!