Author Topic: Run Hide Tell : Public guidance in case of a firearms and weapons attack.  (Read 12811 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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The only problem with no limits to gun control is the idiots and stupids tend to harm the normals when performing their stupid gun tricks.

Makes me wonder why you feel so superior to the general population?  Criminal studies show that inmate's average intelligence is only one standard deviation below the average for the general population.  It could be that successful criminals (smarter) don't get caught due to superior intelligence, or they get voted into office due to effective financial backing and become immune to prosecution.

But, that's not the only problem for civilian gun bans.  Guns can be an equalizer to aggressive behavior.  Without them, you essentially create a survival of the fittest situation.  If you are big and muscular, 60-80 year old frail grandma, for example, is easy prey.  60-80 year old grandma with a gun can stop gorilla man from further abuse, not only of her but other potential victims as well.  There ARE documented cases of this, if you care.  Such incidents just don't make headline news, even though society becomes safer from such incidents.

Even if you are fit and well able to defend yourself from one-on-one attacks, you aren't healthy 100% of the time or 100% alert for it all the time. 
And then there is the roving gangs scenario.  How many can you defend against in hand to hand combat?  When a natural disaster hits (hurricane, tornado, earthquake, etc.)  The roving gangs take advantage of the police being occupied elsewhere (protecting elected officials, and the like), leaving you on your own.  If you survive, they'll happily write a report about it latter when the situation eventually stabilizes.

Can accidents happen? Yes.
Can people do foolish and dangerous things with powerful tools?  Yes, and guns are certainly among them, as are chain saws, gasoline, motorcycles, trucks, autos, Broadcast media, the internet, and chemicals found in Hardware and grocery stores.  But, pretty much all of these things are considered a greater benefit to society than detriment.

I am somewhat taken aback with your desire for indiscriminate sickness and death upon people you don't even know.  But, I suppose it does fall in line with your desire to have them ineffective as survivors in any violent conflict.  I'm wondering why you expect to be a survivor?

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Eh, I am just waiting for the next plague that only hopefully targets a majority of the mouthbreathers and hoopleheads in the world.
Until then I say no limits on gun control so hopefully it will rid the planet of more idiots and generally all-around stupid people.

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Offline ofreen

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The only problem with no limits to gun control is the idiots and stupids tend to harm the normals when performing their stupid gun tricks.
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Eh, I am just waiting for the next plague that only hopefully targets a majority of the mouthbreathers and hoopleheads in the world.
Until then I say no limits on gun control so hopefully it will rid the planet of more idiots and generally all-around stupid people.
I'm wondering why you expect to be a survivor?

Excellent question.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 07:32:02 PM by ofreen »
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Offline scottly

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Such incidents just don't make headline news, even though society becomes safer from such incidents.

I don't agree. While these incidents may not make the national news, they are reported on the local news, at least here. I was a member of the NRA, and one of the monthly features in the magazine I always enjoyed were the stories of how the mere presence of a firearm stopped crimes without a shot. When the NRA rhetoric became as bad as the anti-gun rhetoric, I let my membership expire. As far as the media, sensationalism is what sells advertising, not fear. Look at the hottest headlines; they are dominated more by politics than gun violence. Hmm, on second thought, the current political scene is downright scary. :o 
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Offline TwoTired

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 Such incidents just don't make headline news, even though society becomes safer from such incidents.

I don't agree. While these incidents may not make the national news, they are reported on the local news, at least here.

AZ is not like CA.  One of the reasons I'm moving to AZ.

In CA if you use a gun for self defense, you are going to jail.  They may not keep you there and release you later.  But, they'll keep your gun, and any other they find in your house.  Legally owned or not.  That's the way of the big cities and certainly SF and SJ.  If you sue for returning your confiscated property.  The process is dragged out until after their routine scheduled destruction of confiscated guns.  That event usually DOES make the news.  Then, of course their are no guns to return.  We're so very sorry at your loss.

If the self defense incident does make news. (slow day)  They just emphasize that there was yet another gun violence incident and you shot an unknown person and were detained for questioning in the matter pending and investigation, showing your escort to a squad car, or mug shot.  If it was justifiable.  They will not print or broadcast any clarification.  It's just not newsworthy, I suppose.

If the perpetrator survives, he can sue you for assault and the judges allow this.  If the perpetrator dies, then their relatives can sue you for wrongful death.  The judges allow this, too.  In either case, the defendant still has to pay all the court and lawyer costs, win or lose.

Such is the stigma they wish to associate with all gun owners in CA. 

I've read about similar incidents in New York, Boston, Washington DC, New Jersey, or just about any city that has implemented draconian and highly restrictive gun laws.  If you are not familiar, check out the Bernhard Goetz trial as an example.
http://www.famous-trials.com/goetz/135-chronology
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Ok, so we've established that gun violence is out there. There are people that want to harm people will get a gun no matter what the laws. There are people that don't have the mental stability and shouldn't have access to a weapon. There are many, many, many more people that never fire a weapon outside of target practice.

When England outlawed guns, knife and hammer attacks increased dramatically. Now the mass attackers are using cars and trucks. If its going to happen, they'll find a way.

If someone comes at you with a gun or knife, you can choose to be passive and hope nothing horrible happens to your or your loved ones. You can have an option to protect yourself even if you don't exercise that option or you can exercise your self defense option. Of course you can wait until the attack is over and call the police then wait the 3-5 minutes for them to arrive. Or, you can run like hell screaming in hopes that the attacker is a bad aim or someone will actually care and help. Keep in mind, you can't outrun a bullet.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

You don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.

I personally want to have all the options available to me. The best defense is knowing your surroundings and don't put yourself in bad situations if you can help it.

Ha ha, don't let your lack of knowledge get in the way of the facts mate. In Britain, as in Oz, if you want to own a gun and you can demonstrate a need (gun club, hunting, farming etc) then there are restrictions on what types of gun you can own, but you can still own one.

There are no statistics to support your (NRA sourced) statement that "When England outlawed guns, knife and hammer attacks increased dramatically" because there were so few guns in circulation, gun murders accounted for only a tiny amount of Britain's (already small) murder rate. Just like in Oz, Britain's three gun massacres were all committed by licensed, registered gun owners with no criminal records, just "Regular Joes". (whatever that is........ )   

Yes, there are murders still in Britain as there are in Oz, but the murder rate is tiny in comparison to the US, which has the highest murder rate of an "First World" country. All BS aside, why do you think so many people are murdered in the US compared to any other first world country? The article I've linked below has some very interesting stats for you guys who like stats. ;D

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Ok, so we've established that gun violence is out there. There are people that want to harm people will get a gun no matter what the laws. There are people that don't have the mental stability and shouldn't have access to a weapon. There are many, many, many more people that never fire a weapon outside of target practice.

When England outlawed guns, knife and hammer attacks increased dramatically. Now the mass attackers are using cars and trucks. If its going to happen, they'll find a way.

If someone comes at you with a gun or knife, you can choose to be passive and hope nothing horrible happens to your or your loved ones. You can have an option to protect yourself even if you don't exercise that option or you can exercise your self defense option. Of course you can wait until the attack is over and call the police then wait the 3-5 minutes for them to arrive. Or, you can run like hell screaming in hopes that the attacker is a bad aim or someone will actually care and help. Keep in mind, you can't outrun a bullet.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

You don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.

I personally want to have all the options available to me. The best defense is knowing your surroundings and don't put yourself in bad situations if you can help it.

Ha ha, don't let your lack of knowledge get in the way of the facts mate. In Britain, as in Oz, if you want to own a gun and you can demonstrate a need (gun club, hunting, farming etc) then there are restrictions on what types of gun you can own, but you can still own one.

There are no statistics to support your (NRA sourced) statement that "When England outlawed guns, knife and hammer attacks increased dramatically" because there were so few guns in circulation, gun murders accounted for only a tiny amount of Britain's (already small) murder rate. Just like in Oz, Britain's three gun massacres were all committed by licensed, registered gun owners with no criminal records, just "Regular Joes". (whatever that is........ )   

Yes, there are murders still in Britain as there are in Oz, but the murder rate is tiny in comparison to the US, which has the highest murder rate of an "First World" country. All BS aside, why do you think so many people are murdered in the US compared to any other first world country? The article I've linked below has some very interesting stats for you guys who like stats. ;D

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control

I imagine there isn't a culture of thug and gang violence in U.K. or OZ, but I suppose you're right in that there are a lot of guns in the USA, which alone is reason enough to need one. It's quicker and easier to get a hot handgun than it is to get a legal one. It always has been and probably always will be. We are defending criminals by strengthening gun laws.

On another note, if the NRA calls me again fishing for money, I'm going to loose my mind. That's a separate topic, but it's getting out of hand.



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Offline calj737

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Ha ha, don't let your lack of knowledge get in the way of the facts mate.
I think it would be very hard to argue that the rise of mass murders, attempted murders, and other "violence" using means other than firearms is definitely on the rise globally. Paris, London, Germany, Brussels, Oz, US etc have all seen numerous episodes of cars, trucks, edged weapons, (now acid in London) and so on. The state of humanity is on a rapid decline and the evil that men do is off the charts everywhere.

The Opiod crisis in the US alone is not even mentioned. The deaths from it last year eclipsed all others mentioned in this thread and yet, I do not see the public or Legislation or the UN (heaven forbid they did anything useful with our taxpayer BILLIONS) clamoring for restrictions or prosecution. The irony and hypocrisy from those who would deprive all others due to the evil of a very small majority globally doesn't sway me.

It matters little to none which side of the argument you take; you can NOT legislate morality. Full stop.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Actually it's interesting Cal, when I was researching the stats from the UK and Oz, I discovered that there has been a steady decline in the murder rate since the early 2000's, as opposed to the US, which continues to rise. I was expecting there to be a rise too, because of the terrorist attacks? But the UK annual murder rate is only around 570 for a population of 66 million compared to 15000 for the US with 330 million.

What surprised me was the stats for Canada, their murder rate is still only around a quarter of the US (murders per 100,000 people) but for some reason, I thought they would have been less? Oz has only around 230 murders per year, but Boomerangs aren't as accurate as guns........ ;D 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 05:05:41 AM by Terry in Australia »
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Offline calj737

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Actually it's interesting Cal, when I was researching the stats from the UK, I discovered that there has been a steady decline in their murder rate since the early 2000's
Hmmmm... A quick Google search indicates some differing results-
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/21/rate-england-wales-2015-rises-11
But this is from 2015, not 2017. So I suspect the results will bar rather different in 6 months time.

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...as opposed to the US, which continues to rise. I was expecting there to be a rise too, because of the terrorist attacks there? But their annual murder rate is only around 570 for a population of 66 million compared to 15000 for the US with 330 million.
It is well established that crime rates increase when population levels increase. The ratio also increases.
Even citing your numbers, it is a 0.000045% of the population involved. Please do tell me what possible justification is there to address such an infinitesimal percentage of a population issue with 100% effect to others? That would be like requiring all Aussie citizens to purchase a brand of clothing simply because 1 person couldn't find their size offered in another brand.

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What surprised me was the stats for Canada, their murder rate is still only around a quarter of the US (murders per 100,000 people) but for some reason, I thought they would have been less? Oz has only around 280 murders per year, but Boomerangs aren't as accurate as guns........ ;D
The most telling statistic (for me) is the population density by geography. More people living in close quarters to each other increases conflict. There's no disputing it.

The US population is commonly set at about 330 Million, spread across 3.8M square miles. (86)
The Canadian population is roughly 36 Million, spread across 3.8M square miles. (9.5)
The UK is 65 Million set across 93K square miles. (698)
The Australian population is roughly 25 Million spread across 2.9 Million square mils (8)

What is rather different is the lower murder rate within the UK until recently. Must be something to do with all the pubs available to placate an otherwise rowdy crowd. Or, the length of their social structure being centuries old where other countries (US, CA, Oz) are mere infants comparatively.

I would cite all the statistics about the complexion and location of the increase in murders being largely centered in the densely populated urban environments, and dominated by gang/drug violence. There is simply no disputing that fact. In fact, if you removed the top 5 cities murder rates (all of which are VERY restrictive gun laws) from the US stats, the US would drop to among the lowest murder rate in the world, certainly lower than any "civilized" super power.

And there's no disputing that economics drive crime, especially violent crime. Given the past 10 years economically, I see little surprise that crime rates would increase. And ever-increasing drug usage/crimes will only exacerbate that issue. As it always has.

So tie population/economy/geography/immigration into the statistics, and you get a very different picture as to cause-effect. It will be very interesting to see the results 2 years from now globally about violent crime rates in Europe compared to the prior 10 years. Including Oz.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline 72 yellow

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I always ask the same question on forums when firearms are discussed.  If a total gun ban could be enacted in the U.S., how would it be enforced ?  It was tried with Prohibition and drugs and that failed.   Remember the house to house searches in New Orleans after the hurricane ?  No search warrants.  Declare martial law and suspend the constitution ?

Offline BobbyR

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Cal makes some valid points. The U.S. has a large population which if you look at the population by State is fairly concentrated. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population.
Here it is by Firearm deaths by State with a map.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

Now I would back out the 2/3rds by suicide. Suicide is self harm and while a tragedy, it is not a threat to my personal safety. A 30 year old Son killed his Father a few streets from my home, the hippies across the street were upset, I said it was a "personal matter" and not a random crime.

OK. While I have no desire to do any harm to anyone. I certainly have no desire to shoot anyone I know I could. I will on occasion carry a pistol. I am licensed in NY and several other States. I was trained by working with law enforcement.

As I get older, I begin looking more like a potential victim. I am not alone in this feeling. I also am responsible for the safety of my wife.  We have been doing more road trips.

This is just that simple. I am a pragmatist.     
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Ha ha, you've become the new Lloyd! Sadly though, the whole "Blame it on the gangs" is just another NRA copout. In truth, gang/drug related gun violence only accounts for around 1000 murders in the US annually, whereas the majority of murders are non gang/drug related. I've copied and pasted the following article, which cites actual statistics, and not propaganda. It's a bit old, but still relevant. The link is below it. Cheers, Terry. ;D

"In a scathing critique of ABC’s recent report “Young Guns,” Dana Loesch stated that most gun deaths were the result of gang violence; therefore, America has a gang problem, not a gun problem. Her claim appears to be supported by sites positing that “a staggering 80 percent of gun homicides are gang-related.” As it turns out though, not only is her statement factually incorrect, as the majority of gun deaths are suicides, but there is not a shred of evidence to support her characterization that gangs are the driving force behind firearm violence.

Unfortunately, Dana Loesch’s sentiment is shared by many gun advocates, including the Executive Vice President of the National Rifle Association, Wayne LaPierre, who, when opposing firearm background checks said, “President Obama should be as committed to dealing with the gang problem that is tormenting honest people in his hometown as he is to blaming law-abiding gun owners for the acts of psychopathic murderers.”

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

According to the Federal Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (OJJDP), the number of gangs and gang members has been on the rise for some time now, increasing by more than one-third in the past decade. Between 2010 and 2011, for example, there was a 3 percent increase in the number of gangs, but an 8 percent decrease in gang-related homicides. If gang violence was truly driving the gun homicide rate, we should not see gang membership and gun homicide rates moving in opposite directions.

The most recent Centers for Disease Control study on this subject lends further credence to our claim. It examined five cities that met the criterion for having a high prevalence of gang homicides: Los Angeles, California; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Long Beach, California; Oakland, California; and Newark, New Jersey. In these cities, a total of 856 gang and 2,077 non-gang homicides were identified and included in the analyses. So, even when examining cities with the largest gang problems, gang homicides only accounted for 29 percent of the total for the period under consideration (2003-2008). For the nation as a whole it would be much smaller.

The 80 percent of gang-related gun homicides figure purporting to support Loesch’s claim, then, is not only false, but off by nearly a factor of five. The direct opposite is necessarily true: more than 80 percent of gun homicides are non-gang related. While gang violence is still a serious problem that needs to be addressed, it is disingenuous to assert that the vast majority of our gun problem (even excluding suicides) is caused by gangs.

In spite of this, LaPierre’s proposed solution to gun violence is to “contact every U.S. Attorney and ask them to bring at least 10 cases per month against drug dealers, gang members and other violent felons caught illegally possessing firearms.”

That same CDC study, however, also refutes LaPierre’s claim that the drug trade is fueling gun-violence, saying, “the proportion of gang homicides resulting from drug trade/use or with other crimes in progress was consistently low in the five cities, ranging from zero to 25 percent.”

Furthermore, a 2005 study done by Cook, Ludwig and Braga found that nearly three in five homicide offenders in Illinois in 2001 did not have a felony conviction within the 10 years prior to the homicide. Looking at just violent felons excludes a huge subset of potential criminals that become violent in the presence of a firearm.

Gun advocates’ blind focus on gangs, drugs and violent felons overlooks the larger gun problem facing America. It is irresponsible and disingenuous for some of us to brush off our staggering death toll from firearms merely as the product of gangs or even violent criminals. Recognizing America’s high homicide rate for what it is — a gun problem — is the first step in solving it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-defilippis/do-we-have-a-gang-problem_b_5071639.html
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Terry in Australia

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Cal makes some valid points. The U.S. has a large population which if you look at the population by State is fairly concentrated. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population.
Here it is by Firearm deaths by State with a map.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

Now I would back out the 2/3rds by suicide. Suicide is self harm and while a tragedy, it is not a threat to my personal safety. A 30 year old Son killed his Father a few streets from my home, the hippies across the street were upset, I said it was a "personal matter" and not a random crime.

OK. While I have no desire to do any harm to anyone. I certainly have no desire to shoot anyone I know I could. I will on occasion carry a pistol. I am licensed in NY and several other States. I was trained by working with law enforcement.

As I get older, I begin looking more like a potential victim. I am not alone in this feeling. I also am responsible for the safety of my wife.  We have been doing more road trips.

This is just that simple. I am a pragmatist.     

Cal's points make sense for sure Bobby, although he edged around why Britain (or most of Europe, or Asia for that matter) have a much lower murder rate, even though they're probably the most densely populated places in the world? I haven't bothered to look at suicide rates, suicide is a separate problem, and it's a problem world wide.

I'm not anti-gun, I own some guns myself, and after 40 years in the military I know that there are folks out there who should be allowed to own guns like yourself, and I know there are a hell of a lot of folks who shouldn't be allowed to own guns ever, but due to your 200+ year old constitution, anyone and his dog (as long as they're not convicted felons, who as it turns out are much less of a problem than a lot of "upstanding citizens") can own guns, and there's your problem.

I've absolutely no idea how you'll solve this problem, the NRA is too strong for either political party to change the constitution, and those who should be allowed to own guns will side with those who shouldn't, just to keep the pro-gun numbers up. Enjoy your road trips mate, and keep that gun handy. ;D 
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline calj737

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Ha ha, you've become the new Lloyd!
That's a very flattering comment in my world, Terry. I find Lloyd, while sometimes loquacious, to be intelligent, rational, and extremely well-informed. Unlike many of the "links" you cite, there is factual, not ideological evidence to support the research he cites (Kleck versus Huff Post and Politico). And if you think gang violence in the US is NOT accounting for the severe increase in gun violence, then you are using what they're selling.

But since you seem to accept their articles as accurate and factual, here's one that substantiates the exact statistics many posit:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us-murder-rate-crime-statistics_us_58f55580e4b0da2ff862aeba

You can even delve deeper into the actual murder event in most cities to determine victim, assailant, circumstance, and locale of the event if you wish to determine the facts for yourself. So it is not far-fetched, or tin hat to cite gang violence as major contributors to the rise in gun violence especially given the saturation of these events in these cities, where gang/drug violence is on the rise, and widely cited by even the city Mayors.

You dismiss our 200 year old Constitution as some type of ill-conceived notion that is out of step with today's realities. On the contrary, it is far more relevant today than it was 50 years ago. The very nature of this thread (Free Speech) is a protected right in the States (despite this thread and forum being international in its audience and participation) and that right is only protected by the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment is not everyone having a gun, its about anyone having the freedom to rightfully and lawfully own a firearm to defend their self against a predator or Tyranny. And if you want to dismiss the notion of tyranny being a real threat even today, look around you. China, Philippines, Venezuela, Russia, N Korea, Syria, etc....

Yes in each of these countries, their citizens are disarmed by their "ruling officials" and they (the citizens) are at the mercy of their benevolence. Fortunately for the US, we run the risk of violence tempered with the heft of freedom. I for one, love the balance and the risk vs reward of it. That you don't have it, or want it, or recognize it is for you to decide, not me. If you're delighted with Oz life and citizenship, I applaud your pleasure. But I would discourage you from emigrating here as your ideology would be met with staunch opposition from many and that would diminish the other real benefits from your time living here.

And the rest of the US SOHC community doesn't need any more competition from a hoarder to collect these coveted bikes that you would represent if living here  ;D
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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I don't feel superior to anyone Lloyd. I just know there are a lot of stupid people out there in the world.

All I can do is prepare for the worst when the next financial or biological catastrophe hits and hope I ain't one of those poor suckers that gets offed.
But then again maybe you would be one of the lucky ones if you do bite it quick in that case.

Collapse of civil society in one of those scenarios can get grim pretty fast. 

And as far as banning guns outright I never said I was for that; I just think we need to have some more common sense towards gun laws and how we treat mental health in this country to hopefully head off the next wackadoo that wants to plink off children at our schools or other mass shooting scenario.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 07:56:07 AM by Duke McDukiedook »
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Ha ha, you've become the new Lloyd!
That's a very flattering comment in my world, Terry. I find Lloyd, while sometimes loquacious, to be intelligent, rational, and extremely well-informed. Unlike many of the "links" you cite, there is factual, not ideological evidence to support the research he cites (Kleck versus Huff Post and Politico). And if you think gang violence in the US is NOT accounting for the severe increase in gun violence, then you are using what they're selling.

But since you seem to accept their articles as accurate and factual, here's one that substantiates the exact statistics many posit:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us-murder-rate-crime-statistics_us_58f55580e4b0da2ff862aeba

You can even delve deeper into the actual murder event in most cities to determine victim, assailant, circumstance, and locale of the event if you wish to determine the facts for yourself. So it is not far-fetched, or tin hat to cite gang violence as major contributors to the rise in gun violence especially given the saturation of these events in these cities, where gang/drug violence is on the rise, and widely cited by even the city Mayors.

You dismiss our 200 year old Constitution as some type of ill-conceived notion that is out of step with today's realities. On the contrary, it is far more relevant today than it was 50 years ago. The very nature of this thread (Free Speech) is a protected right in the States (despite this thread and forum being international in its audience and participation) and that right is only protected by the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment is not everyone having a gun, its about anyone having the freedom to rightfully and lawfully own a firearm to defend their self against a predator or Tyranny. And if you want to dismiss the notion of tyranny being a real threat even today, look around you. China, Philippines, Venezuela, Russia, N Korea, Syria, etc....

Yes in each of these countries, their citizens are disarmed by their "ruling officials" and they (the citizens) are at the mercy of their benevolence. Fortunately for the US, we run the risk of violence tempered with the heft of freedom. I for one, love the balance and the risk vs reward of it. That you don't have it, or want it, or recognize it is for you to decide, not me. If you're delighted with Oz life and citizenship, I applaud your pleasure. But I would discourage you from emigrating here as your ideology would be met with staunch opposition from many and that would diminish the other real benefits from your time living here.

And the rest of the US SOHC community doesn't need any more competition from a hoarder to collect these coveted bikes that you would represent if living here  ;D

Ha ha, well I think that you're every bit as "loquacious" as Lloyd Cal, and reading thru your latest post, just like your mentor, once again I see a lot of rhetoric, but not much in the way of facts? Yes, I understand that you're a proud American, and you're happy with the way that America is travelling, and are prepared to look the other way in the face of your ever increasing murder rate, citing your NRA propaganda as somehow more honest than that of the "Mainstream Media", but the fact is, the vast majority of murders in the US are committed by people who are legally entitled to own guns.

Would I want to emigrate to the US? Hell no! I'll take my chances with the 230 murders that happen here annually, as much as adding to my motorcycle hoard is always appealing, the risks outweigh any benefit. Thanks anyway. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline calj737

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...but the fact is, the vast majority of murders in the US are committed by people who are legally entitled to own guns.
Hogwash! That is undocumentable bull crap. There is not a single FBI, State, local municipal crime report to support your fantasy.

I'm not an NRA member actually. Never have been, don't feel the need. I am educated and versed on matters that concern me, unlike some others. I posted links to your "fact" sites, that you choose now to dispel them is as I said in an earlier post, ironic and hypocritical. Run when the facts disprove your argument.

Either way, the problem remains that our children in schools are at risk from evil doers and no amount of tit-tat in this thread will remedy that. Odd though, we guard our currency with armed protectors but not our most treasured assets; children. I am in favor of the school districts here in the US that have now allowed faculty and staff who want to, to receive proper training and background checks to carry concealed weapons on school property. At least some adults see the need for prompt response against an armed assailant. Bravo them!
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline scottly

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 Such incidents just don't make headline news, even though society becomes safer from such incidents.

I don't agree. While these incidents may not make the national news, they are reported on the local news, at least here.

AZ is not like CA.  One of the reasons I'm moving to AZ.

In CA if you use a gun for self defense, you are going to jail.  They may not keep you there and release you later.  But, they'll keep your gun, and any other they find in your house.  Legally owned or not.
Are you speaking from personal experience? Even in Arizona, you can be put in jail if it isn't a clear case of self defense, like the guy that shot the thief who was stealing the stereo out of his car in the driveway; he wasn't in any danger until he went outside and confronted the thief. On the other hand, if someone breaks into your home while you are there, you have the reasonable assumption that they mean you bodily harm, and can protect yourself. This was also the policy in CA.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline calj737

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Such incidents just don't make headline news, even though society becomes safer from such incidents.
I don't agree. While these incidents may not make the national news, they are reported on the local news, at least here.
AZ is not like CA.  One of the reasons I'm moving to AZ.

In CA if you use a gun for self defense, you are going to jail.  They may not keep you there and release you later.  But, they'll keep your gun, and any other they find in your house.  Legally owned or not.
Are you speaking from personal experience? Even in Arizona, you can be put in jail if it isn't a clear case of self defense, like the guy that shot the thief who was stealing the stereo out of his car in the driveway; he wasn't in any danger until he went outside and confronted the thief. On the other hand, if someone breaks into your home while you are there, you have the reasonable assumption that they mean you bodily harm, and can protect yourself. This was also the policy in CA.
In nearly every state, if you fire a weapon and kill someone, or use any weapon, you are extremely likely to be arrested. Whether you are charged or not depends greatly on the circumstances of that incident, but you are very likely to be arrested. As it should be really. The cops do a very good job of determining the circumstances to support a charge of manslaughter or self defense. Its the situations where "property" not lives are defended with deadly force that will see someone in court. As it should be.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BobbyR

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rand.
Actually it's interesting Cal, when I was researching the stats from the UK, I discovered that there has been a steady decline in their murder rate since the early 2000's

[The Australian population is roughly 25 Million spread across 2.9 Million square mils (8)


I find this disturbing.   25 Million Aussies.  These blokes need to put down the Fosters, go home and do the nasty a few more times a week. Just sayin. Not for nothin, but I expected more. 
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline TwoTired

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Are you speaking from personal experience? Even in Arizona, you can be put in jail if it isn't a clear case of self defense, like the guy that shot the thief who was stealing the stereo out of his car in the driveway; he wasn't in any danger until he went outside and confronted the thief. On the other hand, if someone breaks into your home while you are there, you have the reasonable assumption that they mean you bodily harm, and can protect yourself. This was also the policy in CA.
Have I been arested? No.  Did I read the papers, watch the news?  Yes.
Further, back in the 90s, I was a member of Gun Owners of America , California Rifle and Pistol Association, Gun Owners of California, among others. They would send me newsletters announcing their activities.  Anounce gun rights victories, pending and passed legislation, etc. Part of what they  did was help with legal defenses for gun related charges, as well as persue the return of guns confiscated during investigations, citing facts of the cases involved, outcomes, and pending attempt for return of property .  Both San Jose and San Francisco were notorious for destroying (or losing) confiscated guns.  If a gun collection was confiscated (more than 5 or 10), the media was alerted so they could publicly display the "arsenal" they removed from "the streets".  Such events were in both print and broadcast  media to punctuate the "war on guns" and routinely lambast the NRA by association.  It didn't matter if there were antiques or rare unique commemorative examples in the collection.  It was quantity that was emphasized to an uneducated public in the PR opportunity.
They destroyed WWI and WWII family heirlooms, indiscriminately in persuit of their cause.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jgger

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I would be very doubtful that ALL the heirlooms or collectables got destroyed, look how long that cop had the Buck knife he found at O.J.'s place.

It sure is strange how the rest of our constitution evaporates when politicians are screwing with the 2nd amendment.

I have a hard time with the run-hide-tell plan, I don't know if I could sleep at night if I knowingly left a bunch of unequipped or unprepared people to meet their death and just ran away, and if I did I sure as HELL wouldn't tell anybody about it!.....But that's just me, not trying to sound like a tough guy, just a guy with a conscience.
"The SOHC4 uses a computer located about 2-3 ft above the seat.  Those sometimes need additional programming." -stolen from  Two Tired

The difference between an ass kisser and brown noser is merely depth perception.  Stolen from RAFster122s

Offline vfourfreak

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I have a hard time with the run-hide-tell plan, I don't know if I could sleep at night if I knowingly left a bunch of unequipped or unprepared people to meet their death and just ran away, and if I did I sure as HELL wouldn't tell anybody about it!.....But that's just me, not trying to sound like a tough guy, just a guy with a conscience.

Exactly how I feel also.

Kev


Offline scottly

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I think Bobby said it best so far:
While I have no wish to kill anyone. If I can take the shot i will take it. There is no doubt about that.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....