Topic: Frying ignitions - need help ASAP for race next weekend - Update from Dyna

[slikwilli420]

I smoked two dyna ignitions this weekend and I think a set of points as well.

I am running dyna 3 ohm coils with their ignition. My setup is total loss so I'm running a battery through a relay with the kill set to switch the relay. I had a main fuse and toggle but we bypassed that since it was giving issue a well. The battery never dropped below 13 volts all weekend so low voltage issues are out.

Each time the ignition died as I was pulling top gear on a long straight. We found that both dyna ignitions (one from around 5-6 years ago and one brand new with the smaller pickups) had fried one pickup.

What am I missing?I need some quick thoughts to see if I can get parts before leaving Thursday morning for Road America.

[kmb69]

I smoked two dyna ignitions this weekend and I think a set of points as well.

I am running dyna 3 ohm coils with their ignition. My setup is total loss so I'm running a battery through a relay with the kill set to switch the relay. I had a main fuse and toggle but we bypassed that since it was giving issue a well. The battery never dropped below 13 volts all weekend so low voltage issues are out.

Each time the ignition died as I was pulling top gear on a long straight. We found that both dyna ignitions (one from around 5-6 years ago and one brand new with the smaller pickups) had fried one pickup.

What am I missing?I need some quick thoughts to see if I can get parts before leaving Thursday morning for Road America.

If it was the same pickup fried both times, I would be suspecting the coil or wiring for that side.

[scottly]

The 3 ohm coils are the most likely suspects, especially if you fried a set of points as well. You can swap the coils for 5 ohm coils, (even stock coils may be an improvement if they allow you to finish the race ) or wire in resistors in the feeds to the 3 ohm coils.

[scottly]

Were the fried pickups and points all connected to the same coil? Measure the primary resistance on both coils, and report your results.

[Haybus]

Definitely not an electrical expert, but I'm familiar with that problem. I eliminated all removable connections after a weekend of ignition troubles and now have a 100% soldered loom. No disconnects in my loom and no troubles for two years now. Also, in hot weather it migh be good to run a vented ignition cover. Don't know if it actually helps, but certainly doesn't hurt. I carry a spare ignition just in case, but haven't needed it. My pit mate stared with a soldered loom and hasn't had any troubles in his 2 years.

Alan

[slikwilli420]

The 3 ohm coils are the most likely suspects, especially if you fried a set of points as well. You can swap the coils for 5 ohm coils, (even stock coils may be an improvement if they allow you to finish the race ) or wire in resistors in the feeds to the 3 ohm coils.

How big of resistors? I am hearing 1 ohm to each coil power wire will work. I will check the coils today. How to I measure the resistance?

I have another set of 3 ohm coils if I find a bad one. Calling dyna today to get some resolution.

[slikwilli420]

Just talked to Larry in tech support at Dynatek and he said my setup should not have any issues and that the 3 ohm coils and Dyna S is the right combo, and that plug wires/caps and spark plugs make no difference.

He also said there was no need for inline resistors with the dyna ignition and coils, but it would be necessary with points.

Since I am not experiencing an issue with voltage loss, where does this leave me?

[bwaller]

I use this Suzuki Katana single pickup ignition with 3 ohm coils and it's dead nuts reliable. The advantage for my engine is the built in ignition cut out is 11,400 rpm where I need it. For your 750 you could manage to use this ign setup then buy a separate rev limiter to control that aspect. No need to vent the ign cover although I agree some of the aftermarket crank triggers seem to suffer from heat. Originally I used such a cover with a D2K, but when it rains after the race starts you've got new trouble!

This may not allow you to get done in time. A purpose built harness as Alan mentioned is also smart and avoids other issues. I like good copper core wire with NGK resistor caps and plugs.

I watch guys pull their hair out with ign. trouble all the time. Many aftermarket options seem fine on the street, but don't hold up to racing demands. Add 1 ohm resistors if you want I suppose, more for the street probably, because many racers use the green coils without. Another thing, and I don't know what you do, but you aren't gaining with a plug gap over 0.032". (my 2 cents)

EDIT: re-read you had a fuse, some kind of toggle & a kill switch? A blade type fuse is good but by using a relay just use one switch to trigger that.

Another thought....did you measure the air gap between triggers & rotor? Try setting those to 0.020-0.025" and be sure they're identical.

[turboguzzi]

the currents dyna ignitions use is just crazy, dont make any sense and surely produces tons of  heat...

the proof is in the amount of fried ones i've seen on race bikes, I stopped counting at one point, so not surprised to hear

1. go to your nearest breaker and grab form any early 90s gsxr / katana / bandit the following:
rotor
pickup sensor
coils
ign box

2. install as per brent's pics - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=145739.0
3. forget about ignition issues

[bwaller]

Actually Matt, I forgot to mention but Yossef is right. The D2K I started with had very high current draw. In my case I gained nearly 20 minutes battery run time. So you know this was Yossef's idea on his first race bike, I just jumped on board!

[slikwilli420]

Brent/TG

That is a good thought moving forward. If it weren't for ignition issues, my weekend would have been a whole lot better. I will look into getting some GSXR ignition components to play with between next weekend and Barber in October. For now, I will see about getting the resistor from Mark and installing either the dyna that is coming or the points plate (TEC points) that are coming. I just need to get through the weekend.

We actually found that the toggle switch for main power was also faulty and we bypassed that, now I just have a handlebar mounted kill switch to do everything. It powers the relay which gives power to the coils and ignition. I had a fuse inline as well, but we suspected that first and cut it out.

[754]

What is wrong with rev limited to 11,400.  ?

[bwaller]

Nothing, if he knows it makes power to that point, & isn't just revving it that far for the fun of it. Seems to me he's running a stock engine though Frank.

[slikwilli420]

Stock engine, correct. When it was running really well, 9,500 was about all it had. It would rev past that but thats the point where the power was still good. Not going to wring out a stock engine for another 500 rpms just because.

[754]

Sorry , thought it had a cam.
 Fwiw... Ran total loss points and battery..many times..  No issues..... .. For those..I just want to make this thing run...days...

[turboguzzi]

 you check coils ohm between the two input tabs, i.e. where the two thin +/- 12v wires are connected.

check also that you dont have shorting between them and ground (the core of the coil, where the mounting bolts pass), a grounded coil could easily burn an igntion

gsxr coils are 3.5 ohms, and yet the whole ign sys uses under 1 A, so it's really the dyna design that just burns watts and seemingly uses the ignition plate as a heat sink....

try those 1 ohm ballast, but hard to predict if it's not going to blow a dyna ign up again.

[turboguzzi]

FYI

typical suzuki box
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Suzuki-GSF-600-Bandit-1998-Zundbox-Blackbox-Zundung-ignition-/371505560300?hash=item567f74faec:g:IIUAAOSwcBhWaZkN

pickup sensor and rotor

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Hallgeber-Pickup-Spule-Zundung-Impulsgeber-Suzuki-GSF-600-Bandit-GN77-95-99-/122507182292?hash=item1c85ff40d4:g:C3IAAOSwyQtVk0Fb

suzuki coils

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Suzuki-GSF-Bandit-1200-Zundspule-Zundung-/262869930730?hash=item3d3444d2ea:g:uy0AAOSwhlZYsbYU

[bwaller]

Or this below! The bottom is the ignitor box I use. Besides rev limits, between models and years, there were changes in how the advance was fed but Suzuki never seemed to reveal all this info as the ignition plates were fixed and no adjustment required. We need to use the adjustable Honda plate to make the initial timing setting.

TG knows Gixxers so may have a better idea about the advance curves between models.

There are thieving Ebay characters these days so try to find someone with a box willing to communicate. The first spare box I bought didn't count rpm.  (ignition worked fine, just no tach signal so likely no limiter either)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Suzuki-GSX600-GSX-600-Katana-Ignition-Points-Plate-/361952856676?hash=item5446124a64:g:KNQAAOSwB-1Y5kOb&vxp=mtr


http://www.ebay.com/itm/88-89-90-91-92-93-Suzuki-GSX1100F-GSX-CDI-ECU-Computer-Brain-Box-32900-48B10-/272529009801?hash=item3f73feac89:g:lpgAAOSw-0xYgiwX&vxp=mtr

[slikwilli420]

 you check coils ohm between the two input tabs, i.e. where the two thin +/- 12v wires are connected.

check also that you dont have shorting between them and ground (the core of the coil, where the mounting bolts pass), a grounded coil could easily burn an igntion

gsxr coils are 3.5 ohms, and yet the whole ign sys uses under 1 A, so it's really the dyna design that just burns watts and seemingly uses the ignition plate as a heat sink....

try those 1 ohm ballast, but hard to predict if it's not going to blow a dyna ign up again.

Regarding a short in the coil, they are mounted to a steel piece that is mounted to the frame. Is there supposed to be something between the coil core and the steel mounts?

[scottly]

Measure the primary resistance on both coils. Set your meter to the lowest ohms scale, and measure the ohms with one meter lead connected to one of the small coil wires, and the other meter lead connected to the other small coil wire. The coil wires should be disconnected from the harness. The resistance of the coil is what determines the current the trigger has to handle. If you have a bad coil with shorted windings, as Mark suggested might be the case, adding resistors is a band-aid at best.
TG, a grounded primary coil wire wouldn't fry an ignition; if was the one on the trigger side, there would be no spark, and no current through the trigger, and if it was the one on the 12v supply side, it would blow the fuse if there was one, or melt the wire if there wasn't, but there would still be no current through the trigger.

[Haybus]

So sorry you struggled with ignition troubles this weekend Matt. Putting in so much time getting ready for your first race just to be wrenching in the pits is such a bummer. I hope you had fun nonetheless. Did you get any decent track time?

Alan

[slikwilli420]

Measure the primary resistance on both coils. Set your meter to the lowest ohms scale, and measure the ohms with one meter lead connected to one of the small coil wires, and the other meter lead connected to the other small coil wire. The coil wires should be disconnected from the harness. The resistance of the coil is what determines the current the trigger has to handle. If you have a bad coil with shorted windings, as Mark suggested might be the case, adding resistors is a band-aid at best.
TG, a grounded primary coil wire wouldn't fry an ignition; if was the one on the trigger side, there would be no spark, and no current through the trigger, and if it was the one on the 12v supply side, it would blow the fuse if there was one, or melt the wire if there wasn't, but there would still be no current through the trigger.

I disconnected the coils from all wiring and checked them last night. The primary resistance range started at 2.9ohms, going to like 3.2 or 3.4, and mine were both at 2.83-2.86. The secondary resistance was like 13.5K and I was getting right at 13K. The instructions made it sound like unless they were way off from the range they were OK.

I ended up finding a Hondaman resistor pack I had lying around for my street bike that will be going in here. The way the bike is wired, I can easily go back and forth, either bypassing the resistor or using it pretty quickly. Not sure why I would ever need to but I can.

[slikwilli420]

So sorry you struggled with ignition troubles this weekend Matt. Putting in so much time getting ready for your first race just to be wrenching in the pits is such a bummer. I hope you had fun nonetheless. Did you get any decent track time?

Alan

Alan, unfortunately I did spent a lot of time in the pits working on things and sorting things out as the popped up. My dad was my crew chief and I was fortunate enough to have two uncles there as well, one of them was racing against me in the same class! They were all a big help while I took the school on Friday.

Regarding track time, I was shorted by at least half of my track time. I should have had 4 sessions in school at 6-8 laps each, and I missed one all together and never completed any others due to bike issues. I fried an ignition in the mock race at the end of the day so didn't finish that.

Saturday, I got out for one practice that was cut short by a second fried ignition. The Saturday race was run on a borrowed points plate from Kickstart (thanks Chris!) and was red flagged just after half way.

Sunday I got another practice in the rain and was really just getting out on the track to check a nagging oil weep that we could not find but it was running well. At the Sunday race I made it about 3 laps before frying the last ignition.

Even at the novice level, I could feel a stark difference in my posture and overall riding technique between Friday and Sunday. I am really looking forward to Road America.

[scottly]

You fried three ignitions, and the only thing in common was the coils. One of them may be failing when hot. Just to be safe, I would recommend using a known good set of stock coils for the next race.

[livefast_dieold]

Brent/TG

That is a good thought moving forward. If it weren't for ignition issues, my weekend would have been a whole lot better. I will look into getting some GSXR ignition components to play with between next weekend and Barber in October. For now, I will see about getting the resistor from Mark and installing either the dyna that is coming or the points plate (TEC points) that are coming. I just need to get through the weekend.

We actually found that the toggle switch for main power was also faulty and we bypassed that, now I just have a handlebar mounted kill switch to do everything. It powers the relay which gives power to the coils and ignition. I had a fuse inline as well, but we suspected that first and cut it out.

I think I have all the components to make this modification at home, even with the pickup plate already modified for the CB750. Let me know if you are interested, as I have bought a Ignitech inition instead...

Ciao!
Riccardo