Author Topic: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.  (Read 9326 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Hey folks.  Once again coming back to hopefully gain some Intel as to what is happening with my supersport. 

Riding season just getting under way here and I've pulled out my supersport.  I've owned the bike about a year and several of you helped me last year figure out what eventually turned to be a coil bracket flipped and shorting issue.  Lots of trial and error testing to finally fix that.  This year, a different issue has popped up.  First, some background:

- 8 new carb boots with clamps installed
- pamco ignition
- running NGK plugs

The bike starts and runs fine for about 1km or so, stumbles in power until it dies completely & then won't restart until it cools down for 15 min or so.  Then does the same all over. 

The first time it did it, I thought that one of the coils were toast and since these were the originals, I swapped in the set that came with the pamco ignition set.  Rechecked my wires, ran the bike about 1km today and it did the same thing.  It doesn't buck or sputter/surge and misfire like a fuel issue.  That's why it really seems like the spark goes whacky something.

After it cooled down, I started the bike in the shop and just let it idle until it pooped out again just to make sure it wasn't an under load issue.  Pulled plug # 4...spark seemed strong. Tried # 2 and same thing.

I thought perhaps fuel line routing but after researching that, I seem to be correct.  Any thoughts?

Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,899
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2017, 01:40:54 PM »
Maybe tank fuel cap air hole that is clogged? Open tank fuel cap and see that the fuel will flow better.
I have a CB750 tank with rusted cap. I have a new cap for it.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2017, 02:34:05 PM »
Nope.  Not fuel cap.  Hole is clear and when I blow air into it, the latch moves up and down.



Here is my fuel line routing.  Through the carb rack with main supply then into a T connector and into each carb feed port.  I have a white sheath over the line in case of chafing.  Don't think anything out of the ordinary here.  And why would it run upon cooling down if there was an air bubble or something.  And that's Honda spec size line so no leaks.


Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline eigenvector

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,949
  • Member of the despondent public
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2017, 02:38:39 PM »
You mentioned that you don't think a fuel issue - but are you certain that it's not just flat out running out of gas?

My bikes do that all the time when I forget to turn the petcock to 'On'.  Not saying you're doing that - but it really does sound like a fuel issue.  Clogged line, that sort of stuff.

There's enough fuel in the bowl to get you about a mile or so.
Rob
--------------------------------
2018 HD Softail Heritage
1979 CB750K Limited Edition
1977 CB550K
1984 CB700SC Nighthawk
1983 VF750S Sabre

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2017, 02:46:36 PM »
Petcock is turned to the on position as shown in the pic.  Fuel line is brand new with a professional sealed tank liner.
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline MikeSimon

  • MotoManiac
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 770
  • Motorcycle Addict
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2017, 03:03:17 PM »
Bad coils sometimes act like this when they get hot. But I tend to side with the previous posters pointing to a fuel issue. Maybe something wrong with your float level
1973 CB350F -sold
1974 CB350F -218 orig miles, sold
1976 CB750K - in restoration

Other Hondas:
3 x CBX
CB1100R
GB500
Plus Kawasakis, BMws & Ducatis

Offline itsahonda4

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 238
    • www.wfomodels.com
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 03:19:02 PM »
Its a fuel issue is my opinion also.......as a test, leave the fuel off, and ride away, and Ill bet you get about the same distance before the bike stops...........
How do I know? Been the, done that😀😭

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 03:20:32 PM »
Bad coils sometimes act like this when they get hot. But I tend to side with the previous posters pointing to a fuel issue. Maybe something wrong with your float level

Float levels all checked and set to spec when I did the carb boots.
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 03:22:59 PM »
I'll try fill the tank right up and try it.  Full disclosure this is a project bike (not a daily runner) that I've only taken on short 5-10 km runs while things are being sorted out.
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline Jimray23

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
    • none
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2017, 03:43:02 PM »
Bad coils sometimes act like this when they get hot. But I tend to side with the previous posters pointing to a fuel issue. Maybe something wrong with your float level

Float levels all checked and set to spec when I did the carb boots.
Did you do the clear tube test on the floats?

--------------------------------------------------
Jim
1979 kz1000b ltd
    stage 3 cams
    pod air filters
    4-1 open exhaust(no muffler)
    full rewire
    dyna-s ignition
    dyna 3 ohm coils


Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2017, 04:26:23 PM »
l

Float levels all checked and set to spec when I did the carb boots.
Did you do the clear tube test on the floats?

--------------------------------------------------
Jim
[/quote]

All measured with the micrometer.  Went out and looked inside the tank.  As its nice and white inside, easy to see fuel level and the filter screen on the petcock was fully covered with fuel. Started and ran the bike for abit.  Switched the petcock to off and let it run till the carbs emptied.  Filled up the tank and switched petcock to on.  Bike fired right back up.
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline Jimray23

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
    • none
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 04:34:24 PM »
Are you saying you measured the fuel in the clear tubes with a micrometer?

--------------------------------------------------
Jim
1979 kz1000b ltd
    stage 3 cams
    pod air filters
    4-1 open exhaust(no muffler)
    full rewire
    dyna-s ignition
    dyna 3 ohm coils


Offline BomberMann650

  • Holy Cow! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,448
  • Dr. Bovinestein iBa#80333
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2017, 04:37:17 PM »
If the float level is too low the bike will suck the fuel out of the carbs faster than the needle valves can let it in.

I find a good old mm ruler highly effective at bench measuring floats.  Clear tube test verifies proper working order.

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2017, 04:44:50 PM »
I bench measured with the micrometer.  26mm I think it was?  Whatever the manual says.
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2017, 04:46:04 PM »
Check your fuel lines for obstructions that would limit fuel flow.
Kinda sounds like you are using fuel faster than it can be delivered.
Fuel filters clean and clear?  Pinched hoses?

You could also pull a spark plug when it quits and check for spark when hot.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2017, 05:32:22 PM »
Check your fuel lines for obstructions that would limit fuel flow.
Kinda sounds like you are using fuel faster than it can be delivered.
Fuel filters clean and clear?  Pinched hoses?

You could also pull a spark plug when it quits and check for spark when hot.

Fuel lines are new, no filter but the petcock screen is new and sparkling clean.  I thought maybe a pinch in the line where it goes through the carb rack and its fetched in the linkage mechanism some how but nothing there.  Plus, that would not explain why it did the same at idle and the linkage wasn't being twisted in any way. 

I did pull a plug when hot on 4 and 2 and had spark.  it's a mysterious one.  Also, if I was using fuel faster than it can be delivered and my bowls were draining too fast, wouldn't it fire right back up when I stopped and the carbs re-filled?

It seems to take about 10 min before I can restart and it runs again.
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline BomberMann650

  • Holy Cow! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,448
  • Dr. Bovinestein iBa#80333
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 05:44:57 PM »
26 would be awful low for a 550 (idk the 750 spec)

Low enough to cause the bike to act like its running out of gas.

I did it to myself once trying to stop a pesky overflow issue.  4 mm doesn't seem like much, but it's a huge difference to these old bikes.

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2017, 05:48:38 PM »
26mm is spec for 750.  And I understand how carbs could suck themselves dry on a high speed run or something if the settings were off but not at idle.  Then it be a bugger to start for 10 min.

110 jets in the carb.  All newly rebuilt and bench synced.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 05:53:11 PM by b1jackson »
Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 05:49:35 AM »
Yes.  It truly doesn't feel like fuel to me either.  No bucking, sputtering erratic surging, etc.  Once it dies, you can crank and crank and nothing.  Engine doesn't sound any different, just won't start.  After it does start, it runs smooth and seems to have full power and pull.....but don't go further then about 1 km or so or you'll be walking.

I've only owned this bike a short while but I have not rebuilt the motor nor has any previous owner to my knowledge so I think ring gap could be ruled out.  Also, after it has one of these "fits", wouldn't the immediate restart be very difficult to do with a seized or partially stuck cylinder or ring?

I once had a VW Jetta that would occasionally stall and lose all power just like you turned the key.  There was a relay (#109) that was the power circuit and it developed a very fine crack in the solder in its circuits.  On occasion, this solder would open up enough to trip the relay and kill the car.  Replaced with a new style relay and never had the issue again.

I've looked at the circuit board in the pamco (not under a magnifier or anything) but I've never heard of these being problematic. This pamco system was installed by the PO and is only 2 or 3 years old with very little running on it.  I may give it a spray with electrical cleaner and a blast of compressed air to see it that does anything.  And my other option if I am chasing spark as the culprit is to try a set of Champion plugs vs. the NGKs.  As I mentioned, the coils are the new ones that came with the pamco unit with the new wires.


Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline JBCB500

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 216
  • Really enjoying this!
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 06:35:57 AM »
It seems this may have been covered but I've had exactly these symptoms with crappy fuel and a partially blocked petcock.  The bike would run great until I ran into the higher RPMs then it would struggle mightily when I got back off the throttle.  It would cut out soon after and I couldn't restart for several minutes.  I even flattened the battery a couple of times trying.

I pulled the lines from the petcock and cycled through on/off/res.  When on, it would flow fuel OK, but the res was barely a drip.  In hindsight, this explained the delay in restarting - probably took several minutes for the bowls to re-fill at that rate.

This was a brand new shiny petcock with some small amounts of rust in the bottom of the tank.

Offline flybox1

  • My wife thinks I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,289
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 07:49:12 AM »
If the float level is too low the bike will suck the fuel out of the carbs faster than the needle valves can let it in.

I find a good old mm ruler highly effective at bench measuring floats.  Clear tube test verifies proper working order.
Unimpeded fuel flow will always fill the bowls faster than the bike can consume it.
If this wasnt the case, methinks HONDA/Keihin would have recalled all carbs for this design flaw.
If the fuel level is too high in the bowls, the jets will always be covered with fuel...but you may run rich
Fuel level too low in the bowls and the jets will always starve for fuel.  Always.  It wont just suddenly starve for fuel after 15min of riding.
If you've ruled out vapor lock, improper bowl fuel level, fuel supply issue....sounds more like electrical.  New points plate is a good idea.

'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mineā€¦"

Offline b1jackson

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 07:58:07 AM »
Thanks for the insight and things to try folks. I'll have a look tonight and report back. 

I do still have the points set that the PO gave me so I could try that.  Before I go there, I'll go over some of these easier suggestions. 

As I was not the one that installed the pamco unit, I simply tidied up some of the connections to it assuming it was a sort of trouble free unit.

Old Honda Rescue Centre
ohrc_vintagemoto on Instagram

Offline BomberMann650

  • Holy Cow! I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,448
  • Dr. Bovinestein iBa#80333
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2017, 09:45:27 AM »
Pamco typically are trouble free units.

Double check the power source on that thing.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,369
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2017, 11:04:56 AM »
There is something of an 'issue' with the fuel hose routing on the "F" bikes, in particular, and it came from the combination of parts that yours has. At first, Honda routed the hoses much like you have, albeit with the tee sitting at about 45 degrees angle right behind the carb bracket, but later started moving the fuel tee around (as it really IS an awkward arrangement...) and finally made the spigot on the petcock point straight back instead of downward. On those later versions (on the F1 with the round-top carbs) the bikes came new with the hose wrapped around the outside of the #1 carb before turning in toward the others, and the tee was placed behind #1 on those versions.

On yours (with the fuel spigot pointing down) they came 2 ways, and you might wish to try the 2nd 'method' I remember, which was (and is on my own F0): instead of routing the hose down thru the hole in the carb bracket (which was intended to prevent kinking of the hose by making the radius bigger), just route it over the top of the bracket instead. If the hose wants to kink, like it often does on cafe' bikes where the tank has been altered a little bit (i.e., further back) in position, cut the hose about 2" from the petcock, get some 1/4" copper tubing and make a 90-degree bend in it, and a tight one, and use that to make the rearward transition.

On bikes with the Carpy tanks, the only option I have found that works is an extravagant extension of the above: I make a 90 degree bend of copper (or aluminum) tubing from the petcock, then rubber hose to a tee above the airbox (right in the middle of the airbox, fighting for position with the bowl vent hoses and drool drain hose from the F0/F1 tanks, if stock) where I tee out with equal-length hoses to the 2 carb feeds. I have found this method makes the bikes have a higher top end because the fuel is more evenly divided between the 2 feeds, and the needs of the closer one don't hydraulically stymie the other side so much. This is noticeable above, say, 90 MPH, more than at other speeds, but I am told (by the bike owners) that it immediately improved throttle response in uphill passing situations in the mountains, particularly on bikes equipped with things like 836 pistons and bigger cams. If so, then it will also improve things on an otherwise stock setup.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: SOHC4shop.com  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,899
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Cb750 runs in 1 km stretches, then dies, runs again after cool down.
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2017, 12:37:48 PM »
It would be fine with an electrical fuel pump to ensure fuel without flowing over.
I got lean mixture on cyl 1-2 since those carbs fuel hose had a routing loop higher than the petcock pipe. My carbs have two fuel inlets, 1-2 and 3-4, fed by one hose each from the early CB750 petcock with 2 pipes.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967