Author Topic: 2nd opinion on carbs needed  (Read 7476 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2017, 08:46:23 AM »
When looking at the needles is there something else I should be looking at for damage other than the needle being bent or rounded?

If the needles have a shiny spot somewhere in the middle, that is visible wear.  And most likely the needle jet is worn, too.  They should both be round in cross section

 If there is a really big opening where the slide needle enters the base of the carb bore, then the needle jets are missing.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2017, 09:01:10 AM »

Thanks for the pictures. Just to verify. Check the factory settings of 26mm and then the fuel level with the fuel level being the priority if I have to make an adjustment correct?

Yes
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Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2017, 12:27:22 PM »
When looking at the needles is there something else I should be looking at for damage other than the needle being bent or rounded?

If the needles have a shiny spot somewhere in the middle, that is visible wear.  And most likely the needle jet is worn, too.  They should both be round in cross section

 If there is a really big opening where the slide needle enters the base of the carb bore, then the needle jets are missing.

Looks like all of the slide needles are in the 2nd position from the top. Picture attached.

To recap:

Main: 105
Pilot: 40
Jet Needle Position: 2nd from top
Float Height: 26mm (No clear tube test yet)
Carb Type: 064A
MS: 1 turn out

Next step? If I'm running rich now wouldn't bumping the needle position to 4th from the top be problematic?

Clear tube test will happen as soon as I get the carbs back together.


Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2017, 12:31:16 PM »
Next step: clear tube test and then an idle plug chop.  Get your IMS set correctly.
Check in when done with your results.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2017, 02:49:21 PM »
Should I adjust the position of these needles? Looks like they are in 2nd position? I have my needles off now and just need to know if I should leave them where they are or adjust maybe to center which I read might be stock for my 064A CARBS that are also the same I believe as the 657A carbs. This chart says the needle clip should be at 4th position.

Another thread I read here says it might be center (3rd position). Just to verify the needle position are correct in this pic right? I'm just trying to figure out if my needle is currently in the 4th position or the 2nd position. I've always read that the position is from the top of the needle so that currently since im in the 2nd slot from the top I am in the 2nd position. Is that right?

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=150480.0

Next step will be the clear tube test.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 03:18:32 PM by zerodaydave »

Online HondaMan

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2017, 08:57:22 PM »
The 064a carbs on the K4 use (stock) 105 mains and 40 pilots, air screws set between 7/8 and 1-1/8 turns out from full (gentle) stop inward.

The pods will make it go VERY rich between 1500-3000 RPM, then it will start to lean out suddenly until about 5500 RPM, then go flat lean above that. To reduce this action, I apply (usually black) duct tape over the full outside of the 1 & 4 intake pods, leaving about 1/2 of the inside open. This reduces the effects of rapidly-moving air hitting the sides of the pods, disturbing the donut-shaped 'still-air zone' around the bell area of the carb intake. This upsets the air pressure (thus lowering it) into the emulsifiers, which causes the lean condition at higher (road) speeds. I also tape off the wider area of the 2 inner pods, leaving about 1" exposed at the far end of the pod. This quiets the air a little bit more to improve the linearity of the mixture, which the OEM airbox did well.

Above about 50 MPH, you will struggle with the engine going lean because of all the disturbed air pressures in the carbs, due to the open nature of the pods. So, even if you get the mixture correct in, say, 1st gear at 5500 RPM, it will change as much as 15% at 55 MPH (leaner) because of the pressure changes. Eventually this overheats the engine, causing much piston drag and loss of power, and may also be causing ping, if you can hear it. Suddenly the engine feels like it is losing power (which it is) and after running a little slower, it cools off a little bit and the power temporarily comes back.

Here in the Rockies, I have seen these bikes get trailered home for nothing more than someone having fitted pod filters on them in place of [last trip's] stock airbox: at 8000 feet they stop running altogether, with fouled sparkplugs.

So, maybe start by taping off some of the pod faces and see if that starts removing some of the confusion: I would suggest using the #105 main, #40 pilot, 26mm deep float settings, and 1.0 turns out on the air screws, at the starting point.
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Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2017, 09:14:39 PM »
The 064a carbs on the K4 use (stock) 105 mains and 40 pilots, air screws set between 7/8 and 1-1/8 turns out from full (gentle) stop inward.

The pods will make it go VERY rich between 1500-3000 RPM, then it will start to lean out suddenly until about 5500 RPM, then go flat lean above that. To reduce this action, I apply (usually black) duct tape over the full outside of the 1 & 4 intake pods, leaving about 1/2 of the inside open. This reduces the effects of rapidly-moving air hitting the sides of the pods, disturbing the donut-shaped 'still-air zone' around the bell area of the carb intake. This upsets the air pressure (thus lowering it) into the emulsifiers, which causes the lean condition at higher (road) speeds. I also tape off the wider area of the 2 inner pods, leaving about 1" exposed at the far end of the pod. This quiets the air a little bit more to improve the linearity of the mixture, which the OEM airbox did well.

Above about 50 MPH, you will struggle with the engine going lean because of all the disturbed air pressures in the carbs, due to the open nature of the pods. So, even if you get the mixture correct in, say, 1st gear at 5500 RPM, it will change as much as 15% at 55 MPH (leaner) because of the pressure changes. Eventually this overheats the engine, causing much piston drag and loss of power, and may also be causing ping, if you can hear it. Suddenly the engine feels like it is losing power (which it is) and after running a little slower, it cools off a little bit and the power temporarily comes back.

Here in the Rockies, I have seen these bikes get trailered home for nothing more than someone having fitted pod filters on them in place of [last trip's] stock airbox: at 8000 feet they stop running altogether, with fouled sparkplugs.

So, maybe start by taping off some of the pod faces and see if that starts removing some of the confusion: I would suggest using the #105 main, #40 pilot, 26mm deep float settings, and 1.0 turns out on the air screws, at the starting point.

Thanks Hondaman. Btw - I'm about to buy your book. Looking forward to it. You wouldn't happen to remember the stock position for the needle clip would you?


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Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2017, 04:05:39 PM »
Quick update:

It was suggested somewhere that I up my mains to 110 somewhere in this thread. A friend actually just gave me a set so I have that option now. My plan is to still stay at 105 for the time being because I am currently so rich.

I'm putting everything back together tonight. I'm still confused about changing the needle clip position. Stock is 4th position from the top but it's currently in 2nd position from the top. With 102's in it the bike had great mid range with the needle in the 2nd position from the top. It was the top and bottom end that had the issues. Should I leave the needles alone at this point or move them up a notch to 3?

Clear tube test will also happen tonight.

Offline Jimray23

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2017, 05:18:13 PM »
You won't be able to tell anything about the jets until the floats are right. Do the clear tube test first and that may solve all your issues.

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Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2017, 09:47:06 PM »
You won't be able to tell anything about the jets until the floats are right. Do the clear tube test first and that may solve all your issues.

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Jim
I really don't see why people ask for advice if their not going to take the advice given.

Thanks. Honestly I never really had any problems at all with the mid range so I think I'm going to leave those needles alone for right now and follow everyone's advice on the clear tube test.


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Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2017, 01:44:48 PM »
Got the carbs back together. Working on the floats and clear tube test now. I put the carbs in a vice grip and let the floats "float" down. I'm measuring from the indent and it looks like most of them are way off based on the factory setting of 26mm.

Is this the proper angle to measure at?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 01:47:15 PM by zerodaydave »

Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2017, 01:59:11 PM »
Thats not how you measure floats!  :o

Like this....

read the heading
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2017, 02:02:37 PM »
Thats not how you measure floats!  :o

Like this....

read the heading


Well ... alright then. Thanks Fly. Still learning here.

Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2017, 02:03:35 PM »
Cool  8)  Carry on!
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2017, 12:11:38 PM »
I'm seriously at a loss.

I measured the floats again and they were all at 26mm. I used Flybox's pic as an example.

I did the clear tube test and the fuel level was right below the gasket.

I put the bike back together. I didn't change anything. Jets are 105, 40. Floats are 26mm verified with the clear tube test. Needle is still in 2nd position from the top. The bike idles perfect but as soon as I give it any gas it just cuts out. I can leave the bike for a solid 10m and it wouldn't die. As soon as I apply throttle it just dies. It doesn't even sputter now. It's just spits and dies.

Should I just give up and go back to the 102s?

Dave

Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2017, 12:46:41 PM »
vacuum sync done?
Idle plug chop done? 
IMS properly set?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2017, 12:52:35 PM »
To the best of my ability yes. Vacuum synced. Mixture screws at 1 1/8. Have to engage th choke all the way to ride and even then after about 45 seconds it dies. Power returns when the choke mostly engaged . I'm going to lower the needles to 3rd position and start all over I guess.

Idle chop not yet.

Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2017, 12:54:15 PM »
needles have nothing to do with what you are experiencing

are you sure you're operating your choke lever properly?

describe your use of the choke in more detail.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 12:56:39 PM by flybox1 »
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2017, 01:08:51 PM »
On my carbs 064A the lever down means the choke is not engaged. At idle with the lever down the bike runs great. When I throttle the bike will either bog down and never recover OR I lift the lever up and engage the choke. The bike will then ride with minimal power at WOT until it loads up on fuel and dies. My confusion comes from the issue effecting all throttle ranges. It's present at 0-1/4, 1/4-3/4, 3/4-WOT. It never recovers.


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Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2017, 01:19:31 PM »
On my carbs 064A the lever down means the choke is not engaged. At idle with the lever down the bike runs great. When I throttle the bike will either bog down and never recover   Because your A/F mixture here is incorrect.  Now that you have a vacuum sync done, and correct fuel level in the bowls, you need to throw in a new set of plugs and do an idle plug chop to determine which way you need to turn your IMS. OR I lift the lever up and engage the choke. The bike will then ride with minimal power at WOT until it loads up on fuel and dies. My confusion comes from the issue effecting all throttle ranges. It's present at 0-1/4, 1/4-3/4, 3/4-WOT. It never recovers.   
Start with an idle plug chop.  Report your findings.

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'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2017, 01:30:44 PM »
On my carbs 064A the lever down means the choke is not engaged. At idle with the lever down the bike runs great. When I throttle the bike will either bog down and never recover   Because your A/F mixture here is incorrect.  Now that you have a vacuum sync done, and correct fuel level in the bowls, you need to throw in a new set of plugs and do an idle plug chop to determine which way you need to turn your IMS. OR I lift the lever up and engage the choke. The bike will then ride with minimal power at WOT until it loads up on fuel and dies. My confusion comes from the issue effecting all throttle ranges. It's present at 0-1/4, 1/4-3/4, 3/4-WOT. It never recovers.   
Start with an idle plug chop.  Report your findings.

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Alright I'll let the bike idle for ten minutes with new plugs and report back.



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Offline flybox1

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2017, 01:46:10 PM »
new plugs and fan on the engine pls ;)
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline zerodaydave

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2017, 09:37:19 AM »
On my way to pick up some new plugs at the local motorcycle store for the plug chops. I took a video of the bike idling so you guys could see that I'm not crazy. I did a fresh vaccum sync on it. The good news is that ripping the carbs off the bike and syncing is becoming a lot easier since I'm doing it so much.

Regarding the plug chop it's one new set of plugs for each chop right? And I need to do an idle - half throttle - full throttle chop?

Offline Jimray23

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2017, 09:41:47 AM »
4 sets; idle, 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4

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Offline Jimray23

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Re: 2nd opinion on carbs needed
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2017, 09:52:19 AM »
Have you done the clear tube test?

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Jim
I really don't see why people ask for advice if their not going to take the advice given.