Author Topic: A2 licence  (Read 1003 times)

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Offline richie

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A2 licence
« on: June 26, 2017, 12:01:49 PM »
Hi all. im the owner of a lovely 1971 500/4, my son has just passed his A2 licence, the rated kw on this licence is 35kw, the 500/4 gives this as the kw. the HP is 48 according to the spec sheet, and it states that an A2 licence holder needs HP to be 47 or less, an instructor told me that it is perfectly ok for him to drive the 504 on the A2 as its the kw that matters, can anyone tell me if someone has driven or is driving a 500/4 on an A2 licence. Thanks

Offline MikeSimon

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2017, 01:38:14 PM »
35kW is 47.6 HP. It's always a little wishy-washy when converting from kW to HP and back. I think it only matters what the papers say. If the registration of the 500/4 says 35kW and the A2 license says 35kW, he should be O.K. I don't think anybody in Europe officially goes by HP anymore.
1973 CB350F -sold
1974 CB350F -218 orig miles, sold
1976 CB750K - in restoration

Other Hondas:
3 x CBX
CB1100R
GB500
Plus Kawasakis, BMws & Ducatis

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 03:27:50 PM »
Is there exemption for gearbox limited antiques?

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2017, 04:19:36 PM »
There's a whole slew of A2 compliant motor bikes in the wild.  Many are electronically neutered to not make more than 47 hp when they otherwise could.   >:(
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline MikeSimon

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2017, 04:34:43 PM »
A simple washer tagged in the exhaust will do. I remember in the early days of tiered licenses, Harley Davidson 80 cu in motors were made to remain under 34HP. HP not kW!
In Europe most countries do have the engine kW output stated in the registration. Just because insurances base their rates on kW brackets.
1973 CB350F -sold
1974 CB350F -218 orig miles, sold
1976 CB750K - in restoration

Other Hondas:
3 x CBX
CB1100R
GB500
Plus Kawasakis, BMws & Ducatis

Offline flatlander

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2017, 11:25:59 PM »
check with a shop that restricts higher power bikes to A2 spec what needs to be done to get the registration papers changed. then all you need to do is to measure the 500 on a dyno, with no alterations, and register its actual power output.
it won't be more than 47. probably more like 37!

Offline scunny

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2017, 11:54:29 PM »
500 is still a lovely bike tho. ride on.  ;D
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 09:38:51 AM »
500 is still a lovely bike tho. ride on.  ;D

Yes, nice balance and handling.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: A2 licence
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 02:11:57 AM »
For the record, the stated HP may be 48BHP from Honda, but rest assured, that was always very optimistic. The more real world number is likely to be high 30's or very low 40's actually.

I realize the licensing bureau will only base their registration on manufacturer documentation, but perhaps you could find a local dyno to produce a graph of the bike to demonstrate its real status if this issue becomes tenacious?

Richie, Cal is spot on about the actual figure being nearer to high 30s or low 40s but not about the manufacturers figure being optimistic.
Back in the day, most manufacturers gave the BHP at the crankshaft and not at the rear wheel.
If you took a CB750 rated rated by Honda at 67bhp, you would be lucky to see 55bhp at the rear wheel on a rolling road type dyno.
Here is Wikipedias explanation of the two systems.

Engine dynamometer[edit]

HORIBA engine dynamometer TITAN
An engine dynamometer measures power and torque directly from the engine's crankshaft (or flywheel), when the engine is removed from the vehicle. These dynos do not account for power losses in the drivetrain, such as the gearbox, transmission, and differential.

Chassis dynamometer (rolling road)[edit]
Main article: Chassis dynamometer



Modern roller-type chassis dyno systems use the "Salvisberg roller",[5] which improves traction and repeatability, as compared to the use of smooth or knurled drive rollers. Chassis dynamometers can be fixed or portable, and can do much more than display RPM, horsepower, and torque. With modern electronics and quick reacting, low inertia dyno systems, it is now possible to tune to best power and the smoothest runs in real time.

Other types of chassis dynamometers are available that eliminate the potential for wheel slippage on old style drive rollers, attaching directly to the vehicle hubs for direct torque measurement from the axle.

Motor vehicle emissions development and homologation dynamometer test systems often integrate emissions sampling, measurement, engine speed and load control, data acquisition, and safety monitoring into a complete test cell system. These test systems usually include complex emissions sampling equipment (such as constant volume samplers and raw exhaust gas sample preparation systems) and analyzers. These analyzers are much more sensitive and much faster than a typical portable exhaust gas analyzer. Response times of well under one second are common, and are required by many transient test cycles. In retail settings it is also common to tune the air-fuel ratio using a wideband oxygen sensor that is graphed along with the RPM.

Integration of the dynamometer control system with automatic calibration tools for engine system calibration is often found in development test cell systems. In these systems, the dynamometer load and engine speed are varied to many engine operating points, while selected engine management parameters are varied and the results recorded automatically. Later analysis of this data may then be used to generate engine calibration data used by the engine management software.

Because of frictional and mechanical losses in the various drivetrain components, the measured rear wheel brake horsepower is generally 15-20 percent less than the brake horsepower measured at the crankshaft or flywheel on an engine dynamometer.[6]
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