Topic: Harley to buy Ducati?

[Duke McDukiedook]

I don't get caught up in the 'where was your bike made?' argument anymore. It is pointless in this day and age. Just buy the best bike you can for your money and sweat the details later.
And as far as the Harley tax created specifically to aid one company, man, they probably should have gone under and been bought out by another company because they were making mostly #$%* at that time.

[flybox1]

   and then later cagiva was renamed MV Agusta

 

  That's an interesting titbit I haven't heard of. Considering that MV Agusta has been around for quite a while and raced bikes in 50s. They had a 6-cyl racer before Honda did.

Cagiva bought the MV Agusta trademark in '91, and then later formed a parent company called MV Agusta Motor in '96, before selling off Ducati and Motor Morini.  MV-A Motor ended up being just the parent company of Cagiva and Husqvarna.

HD, during this time, bought and sold a bunch of these companies, mainly due to control of their Aermacchi/AMF factory in Italy.

Cagiva never touched the MV bikes/production.  They only crossbred their bikes with Duc motors during that time.

[CycleRanger]

Erik Buell did fantastic work modifying Sportster engines, and Harley owners worldwide have benefited from his hard work with modern sporties that are producing excellent power compared to the pre-Buell bikes. The problem with Buell's own bikes, was that no-one bought them, possibly because it was hard to convince sports bike riders that they should buy a modern sports bike equipped with a 60 year old pushrod engine that only made "moderate" power (for a sports bike) when they could buy a Japanese, German or Italian bike that could run rings around it for similar money or less, and even though he finally dropped the Sportster engine for modern Rotax engines for the last generation of Buell's, aesthetically, they were ugly fcukers, and just didn't sell. If they did, you'd still be able to buy one. 

This! 
HD survived by creating and selling an image and have found themselves slaves to that image, locked into that ancient V-twin forever.
Well, if HD does buy Ducati maybe Ducati can make Harleys interesting.

[Bailgang]

 
   

HD, during this time, bought and sold a bunch of these companies, mainly due to control of their Aermacchi/AMF factory in Italy.

HD in control of AMF? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was the other way around and it was AMF that was in control and doing all the purchasing not HD, they were just along for the ride as all the other companies AMF bought.

[Terry in Australia]

Erik Buell did fantastic work modifying Sportster engines, and Harley owners worldwide have benefited from his hard work with modern sporties that are producing excellent power compared to the pre-Buell bikes. The problem with Buell's own bikes, was that no-one bought them, possibly because it was hard to convince sports bike riders that they should buy a modern sports bike equipped with a 60 year old pushrod engine that only made "moderate" power (for a sports bike) when they could buy a Japanese, German or Italian bike that could run rings around it for similar money or less, and even though he finally dropped the Sportster engine for modern Rotax engines for the last generation of Buell's, aesthetically, they were ugly fcukers, and just didn't sell. If they did, you'd still be able to buy one. 

This! 
HD survived by creating and selling an image and have found themselves slaves to that image, locked into that ancient V-twin forever.
Well, if HD does buy Ducati maybe Ducati can make Harleys interesting.

The problem you have is that a lot of folks like me love that ancient V twin and don't mind spending the money to own one. That's what has made Harley successful, and if Harley has become a slave to it's own success, then I'm sure it's not at all worried about it.

Don't expect Harley's ownership of Ducati will somehow make Harley's more "interesting" though, I didn't see any changes when they owned MV Agusta, arguably Italy's most Iconic motorcycle brand. Harley knows what Harley folk like, and are happy to provide.

[MoMo]

   

HD, during this time, bought and sold a bunch of these companies, mainly due to control of their Aermacchi/AMF factory in Italy.

HD in control of AMF? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was the other way around and it was AMF that was in control and doing all the purchasing not HD, they were just along for the ride as all the other companies AMF bought.

my recollection also

[333]

Harley actually sold a Harley badged Aeromachi, and most dealers refused to acknowledge one after the fact.

[Terry in Australia]

Yep, back in the 1960's and 70's, rather than build a range of smaller bikes to compete with Honda, Harley marketed Aermacchi's as Harley's, notably the Harley 350 Sprint. Great little bikes, and quite rare, I wouldn't mind one.

aermacchi by Terry Prendergast, on Flickr

[Lostboy Steve]

Harley has owned several Italian motorcycle companies over the years, folks here shouldn't be concerned that they'll be putting Harley badges on fragile Italian sports bikes, several Italian companies have been regularly bankrupted and then saved over the years by Harley, and now China is also buying their brands, (Benelli, for instance, Bimota went under a few years ago, not sure who owns the brand nowbut I think they're still building bikes in limited numbers) so it's a good thing that HD is willing to invest in what can be a bit of a gamble.

Erik Buell did fantastic work modifying Sportster engines, and Harley owners worldwide have benefited from his hard work with modern sporties that are producing excellent power compared to the pre-Buell bikes. The problem with Buell's own bikes, was that no-one bought them, possibly because it was hard to convince sports bike riders that they should buy a modern sports bike equipped with a 60 year old pushrod engine that only made "moderate" power (for a sports bike) when they could buy a Japanese, German or Italian bike that could run rings around it for similar money or less, and even though he finally dropped the Sportster engine for modern Rotax engines for the last generation of Buell's, aesthetically, they were ugly fcukers, and just didn't sell. If they did, you'd still be able to buy one.

How American is a Harley? Well how British is a Triumph, how German is a BMW, how Italian is a Ducati, or for that matter, now that a lot of "Big Four" components are made in China, how Japanese is any Japanese bike? But then again, how many of you guys drive American cars? If driving a Japanese or European car, or owning an Asian TV, stereo, computer, tools etc don't make you feel any less patriotic, why would you be concerned about whether your Harley was 100% American? If I was at all cynical, I'd think that a tad hypocritical?

Terry, I had a buell Xb and aside from the engine (which was spectacular) it was a giant lump of #$%*. It was twitchy, uncomfortable, and had severe electrical gremlins. Within 2 years it ate 2 stators and 2 ecu's. Ever seen a vtwin fire on the front cylinder and flood the rear at the same time? I have, not fun. Lol

Secondly, I don't care one bit how American it is. Again, I like the idea of buying American. If I lived near you, I'd feel the same about buying Australian. Not just for pride, but because I feel like I'm helping my country. Or maybe I feel guilty that everything I've ever owned that wasn't American was better. Kawasaki drifter? Or Indian of same generation? I'll take a drifter please. Lol I just hate when people get all "it's American".... and it's not. And anyway, who cares?

Btw, this all makes me think of the Subaru commercials staring Crocodile Dundee. Lol you know to this day people think Subaru is Australian?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lostboy Steve]

This will never be a reality as far as mass production goes, but it's also as close at it will ever come.

http://thekneeslider.com/desmoharley-italian-american-v-twin-completed/




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Terry in Australia]

Kawasaki drifter? Or Indian of same generation? I'll take a drifter please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just threw up in my mouth............

[Lostboy Steve]

Kawasaki drifter? Or Indian of same generation? I'll take a drifter please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just threw up in my mouth............

Lol cmon the drifters are nice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CycleRanger]

The problem you have is that a lot of folks like me love that ancient V twin and don't mind spending the money to own one. That's what has made Harley successful, and if Harley has become a slave to it's own success, then I'm sure it's not at all worried about it.

Don't expect Harley's ownership of Ducati will somehow make Harley's more "interesting" though, I didn't see any changes when they owned MV Agusta, arguably Italy's most Iconic motorcycle brand. Harley knows what Harley folk like, and are happy to provide.

Right, the same bikes for the last 60 years.
NTTAWWT.

[754]

 5 different engine types on the big twin, over that 60 year span.

[eigenvector]

Companies buy each other all the time - don't expect that to mean they'll morph into a combination of the two.  Sometimes it's just about diversifying their portfolio or snatching up a company before a competitor does.

My opinion of Harley is slowly changing over time - for the better.  I think they're getting the message that Easy Rider isn't the only thing you should base your company on and the nostalgia that propped them up a bit ago has run it's course.  I wouldn't expect sport bikes from them - but I had two bikes ride past me this afternoon.  I thought I was going deaf because I couldn't hear them.  Come to find out they had their factory mufflers in!   Time's a changin'.

[Geeto67]

Yep, back in the 1960's and 70's, rather than build a range of smaller bikes to compete with Honda, Harley marketed Aermacchi's as Harley's, notably the Harley 350 Sprint. Great little bikes, and quite rare, I wouldn't mind one.

Maybe the sprints are rare in Australia but not here ins the states. There is always at least one for sale locally at any given time. What is rare is a nice clean restored one, they were unloved for so long that most of them were treated like junk, so finding a project bike is easy. Unfortunately, because it says HD on the tank most people with a junk one still want $1000.

5 different engine types on the big twin, over that 60 year span.

5 different engine types on the big twin, over that 60 year span.

6 if you count the new Milwaukee 8 engine (w flathead, panhead, shovel, evo, tc88, Milwaukee , if you go back to pre WWII you can include the knuckle.

They also had in that same time period 6 completely new engine designs: k-model flathead, XL ironhead, iron and aluminum XR, xr1000 (not the same engine as the xr750 racing engines), v-rod, street 500 and 750.

To put this in perspective Honda produced some variant or evolution of its DOHC 750cc engine from 1979 to 2009 in the nighthawk and rc42 with I think only two evolutionary refreshments. Kawasaki produced its 900/1000 engine from 73 til 2004. Police bikes used the engine right up until they didn't make police bikes anymore. They sold some variant of it to civilians all the way to 1998.

So HD isn't the only one who makes an engine and sells it for a long time, they just have been around longer than anyone's else.

[Lostboy Steve]

Yep, back in the 1960's and 70's, rather than build a range of smaller bikes to compete with Honda, Harley marketed Aermacchi's as Harley's, notably the Harley 350 Sprint. Great little bikes, and quite rare, I wouldn't mind one.

Maybe the sprints are rare in Australia but not here ins the states. There is always at least one for sale locally at any given time. What is rare is a nice clean restored one, they were unloved for so long that most of them were treated like junk, so finding a project bike is easy. Unfortunately, because it says HD on the tank most people with a junk one still want $1000.

5 different engine types on the big twin, over that 60 year span.

5 different engine types on the big twin, over that 60 year span.

6 if you count the new Milwaukee 8 engine (w flathead, panhead, shovel, evo, tc88, Milwaukee , if you go back to pre WWII you can include the knuckle.

They also had in that same time period 6 completely new engine designs: k-model flathead, XL ironhead, iron and aluminum XR, xr1000 (not the same engine as the xr750 racing engines), v-rod, street 500 and 750.

To put this in perspective Honda produced some variant or evolution of its DOHC 750cc engine from 1979 to 2009 in the nighthawk and rc42 with I think only two evolutionary refreshments. Kawasaki produced its 900/1000 engine from 73 til 2004. Police bikes used the engine right up until they didn't make police bikes anymore. They sold some variant of it to civilians all the way to 1998.

So HD isn't the only one who makes an engine and sells it for a long time, they just have been around longer than anyone's else.

Yeah but the vrod engine is a Hardly Davidson.

I agree those sprints are always popping up but not for cheap, there's one local to me right now on CL.

Sure their engines change every so often, but they're still push rod air cooled v-twins with odd timing. They aren't built for race performance.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lostboy Steve]

Daimler Chrysler. Not much good came out of that as far as electronics are concerned.

As far as Buell technology goes, take it from a guy who owned an xb9, the sportsters are still lacking. In 05 my xb9s would eat up a 1200 sportster of the same year, not to mention the xb12s. Sure weight has a lot to do with it, but that engine was more powerful right out of the crank. Harley should have used more of his engine tweaks. There's no reason a 1200 sporty can't be making over 100hp and be reliable.


Stock sportster hp is rated at like 65~

Buell xb12s is rated at 103hp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[754]

They are not all air cooled now.. What is odd timing ?

[Geeto67]

They are not all air cooled now.. What is odd timing ?

45 degrees, v-2 engines like 90 degree intervals (90-180-270-360), 45 degrees isn't a natuarally balanced position for them resulting in a 405 and 315 firing interval (a complete 4-cyl firing interval is 720). On eof the reasons the fueling w-3 worked so well is it balanced the firing intervals. That 405/315 interval is why HDs sound like lumpy cam v-8s

I forgot the revolution 1000 road race engine as a fresh design as well so if you don't want to count the v-rod it can take its place.

[TwoTired]

Yep, back in the 1960's and 70's, rather than build a range of smaller bikes to compete with Honda, Harley marketed Aermacchi's as Harley's, notably the Harley 350 Sprint. Great little bikes, and quite rare, I wouldn't mind one.

aermacchi by Terry Prendergast, on Flickr

I think it was this one my Navy buddy loan to me for several weekends when I was stationed in Lemoore, CA during the early 70's.
Vibrated like a Harley.  Possibly worse.  Made the feet buzz.  And for another hour while walking about after a ride.   I'd take it out to the CA coastline, and camp on the beach with a sleeping bag.  T'was fun for a midwest boy.  On the final weekend, I did the familiar routine of checking oil before the ride as I had done everyday I borrowed it.  I never beat on that bike, cause it wasn't mine.  About half way back to base (Coalinga), the engine started losing power, and then slowed to a stop.  Then I noticed oil all over the back of the bike and my boot.  The oil dipstick plug had vibrated loose and vacated, pumping out all the oil.  Pushed it to a fire station.  It was a pretty long exhausting way.  20 year olds can take that sort of thing.
Ordeal at the time to then get the bike to a place to work on it.  Tow vehicles just don't fit into a Seabag.
Stupid high Harley prices, where they said the bike wasn't capable of sustained riding over 50 MPH.  Thought they were joking.  They were dead serious.  The bike was well capable of over 80.  I held it to 70 or less cause it wasn't my bike but then so did the owner.  Anyway, it was obvious what the cause of failure was.  Maybe they were trying to have me "upgrade" to a more profitable -for them- machine.

$350 to fix it. In 1972.  On my paltry Navy salary.  Thus began my avoidance of Harley Davidson.  Got a basket case '62 650 BSA the next year.  Loved it!  Wish I'd kept that one.

Cheers,

[754]

I wasnt talking roadrace engine, some new big twins have liquid cooling.
 I suppose you could call the 45 degree motor odd..like BMW boxer is odd to Japan bike owners.... Just dont forget that it worked well for both makes for 80 years (yes I know the boxer is an inherently smooth design)
 The 45 degree motor lends itself to custom bikes..better than most..a lot of 90 degree motors look awkward. On an open engine bike..

[mrbreeze]

Here's a picture of a 73 Sprint. My high school buddy named Harley had one that he used to let me ride all the time because I was (and still am) his mechanic. Took my first riders test on that bike back in 73' in San Jose, Ca. http://www.2040-motos.com/_content/cars/images/25/103825/002.jpg

[333]

It's hard to not laugh when "Harley" and "road race engine" are used in the same sentence. Eric Buell was the only one who came close to being competitive, and as soon as he made the podium, he went out of business.  After the Japanese entered the racing scene, Harley couldn't keep up, and stopped trying.  Unfortunately, the golden age of motorcycle racing is gone. Today's racing is good, but just not the same.

[754]

There was a time that was not the case, I think Rayborn was one of the riders .


Note the front calipers..