Author Topic: Stock air filer, how may miles?  (Read 2394 times)

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Offline 70CB750

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Stock air filer, how may miles?
« on: January 09, 2017, 06:44:48 AM »
I pulled the engine from The Red - need to replace cam tensioner - and also checked on the air filter.  It has 5000 miles on it and ot looks brand new, I guess I am used to Dorothy, the exposed filter element gets dirty fast.

So, how many miles between changing air filter in stock air box?
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2017, 07:10:13 AM »
 I think the age of the filter and what type of riding condition would dictate when to change. Dusty Texas or Southwest would be different for sure then the green hills of the east.

Offline markreimer

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2017, 11:43:46 AM »
I've replaced mine twice and have about 25,000km on the bike since owning it. Both times the filter looked pretty clean... just a bit dirty near the air box opening. I probably could have left it. I ride in the prairies, so the air is usually pretty clean


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Offline Duanob

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 01:09:03 PM »
If it looks clean, blow it out with air in reverse of the flow and throw it back in.  :)
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 02:15:13 PM »
Quote
If it looks clean, blow it out with air in reverse of the flow and throw it back in.
Just throw it back in. I know Honda has pics in the maintenance section of this practice to blow it out with compressed air. Filter experts say it's wrong and it could damage the filter fibres. Besides, there's no need. In fact the dirt that is already in there, makes the filter element more effective. You may read below what I wrote before on filter technique*.
My experience is these filters are the best and go way longer than most would expect. Mine do 18.000 km easily and I still keep the old ones stored.
Ofcourse you would replace the filter when you've planned a vacation ride for thousands of miles and you're not sure of the filter. But for every day use, you could just continue to use the filter until you'll have doubts. You will be surprised how long it will take.
*There seems to be some misunderstanding about performance and lifetime of the socalled paper filter element. Let me pass on the information I gathered from filterspecialists. Years ago in a motorcycle magazine I read an interview with the director of a company that imports filters for motorcycles. The man concluded by the volumes he sold that the average rider took extreme care of his bike. He demonstrated this by calculating that he sold far more airfilters than needed and he doubted whether people knew that by renewing their filters all the time ‘just to be sure and have the best’ wasted not only money but perfect filters too. It was in that interview I learned for the first time that contrary to popular belief a paper airfilter actually filters better when it gets older and is at its best, just before it clogs up.
A paper filter filters in three ways. Firstly by inertia. The air flows around a fiber. The heaviest particles cannot follow this track. Because of their inertia they collide with the filterfiber. The second way is the blocking effect. The somewhat lighter particles manage to follow the track of the airflow but hit the fiber sideways and so get blocked. The third way is by diffusion. The smallest particles can follow the airstream but by all kinds of accidental movements (turbulence) deviate nevertheless. When they contact a fiber, they get stuck. Diffusion is quite accidental. Enough filtermaterial and many thin fibers offer the ‘accident’ a helping hand.
In a filter not ony the fibers filter but also the already trapped particles. That’s why a new filter filters not as good as an used one. Although the filter during its lifetime traps more and more dirt, pressureloss-over-the-filter hardly increases if at all. It’s not before the filter is almost full of dirt, that pressureloss increases rapidly. Have a look at the picture below. It’s a scheme for a typical paper air filter’s lifetime and demonstrates that there’s no loss of pressure over the filter until… the very end of the filters lifetime. Then pressure loss over the filter increases dramatically. t1 actually is the ideal moment to replace the filter by a new one. BTW, on the horizontal axis it says trapped particles and on the vertical axis it says pressureloss.
Leave the trapped particles where they are, as they help your filter filter.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 02:10:19 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 03:36:42 PM »
^^^^ great info, thank you :)
Prokop
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 02:51:24 PM »
I have observed that dirt is not what ruins a paper filter...its moisture.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 03:36:16 AM »
Quote
I have observed that dirt is not what ruins a paper filter...its moisture.
Although I've heard of French that washed out and then dried their paper filterelements, I doubt that is possible without ruining the filter. When washing your bike, take care that water doesn't get into the airfilter. In continental Europe CB500s had an extra cover over the airfilter that protects quite well.
Models CB550 that have the carter ventilation tube connected to the airfiltercase should monitor the filter that it does not get moist via that route.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 07:49:14 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 12:54:01 PM »
Pressure drop is related to air flow/speed.  Even the walls of a duct make this contribution.  Anything in the airflow pathway certainly does, as turbulence and drag increase with airspeed.  Ignore this fact at your own detriment.

A filter that is impeded with dirt particles, causes higher pressure drops as speed increases.  They drop pressure even when new, all filters.  And it gets worse as it collects particles.  Pretty much an obvious fact.  So, unless you see a chart that maps filter pressure drop with air speed and trapped particle inclusion, you may safely disregard only partial data presented to support a predetermined position.  Does a dirty filter get more efficient at trapping particles? Yes, as the pathways begin to block into smaller airways as it collects stuff.  Does it make the engine more efficient, hell no.  That's a preposterous conclusion.  As the membrane pressure drop increases, it deepens the carb throat pressure differential, which makes it pull on the fuel jets harder, increasing fuel flow rate to an over rich mixture for the air passing.  Unless you have a computer to change the fuel map for the carb, on-the-fly, you are wasting fuel and making the engine LESS efficient.  You can see this effect on your spark plugs as they get blacker deposits commensurate with air filter age and particulate collection.

Further, with the example restrictor plate (posted prior) well ahead of the filter membrane in the air duct, the most significant pressure drop is at the restrictor plate itself, particularly at high RPMs.  This makes any drop in a clogged up filter down stream a minor contributor to pressure drop and filter flow, as there is less differential to actually appear there.  1% of ten has a smaller result than 1% of a hundred.
So, if you don't have that restrictor plate, you will see much more significant performance degradation with and aged and dirty filter, particularly at high RPMs when the air flow demands are greatest.

I also know that untreated paper filters collapse with high humidity as the paper fibers soften and when differential pressure is applied to them, they collapse, reducing or closing up the crisscrossing fiber formed airways within them.  I've experienced this first hand.  The paper filters don't last as long in the wet winters here in Northern CA, than they do in the dry summers, even though it is certainly dustier here in the summer.  3-4 months of winter use, vs. 8-9 months of summer use before the plugs start showing blacker deposits.

Lastly, it depends a great deal on where you operate a filter regarding it's longevity.  Near the ocean with low particulate counts in the air?  Then your filter will last longer as there are less particulates to collect.  Operate in a dry dusty area?  Better to heed the manufacturers guidelines regarding filter replacement.  They know far more about air filters than any internet self described expert, especially one who is primarily a parts replacer and a flawed amature investigator.  Also, Honda quite possibly knows more than an aftermarket filter manufacturer, whose only concern is selling filters rather than warranty replacement of the machines they produced.   Who's reputation speaks louder, do you think?

So, don't let conclusions in forum posting selected for an intended purpose befuddle you, or allow it to be confused with a real objective analysis using the scientific method where all available data is considered before a conclusion is made.

FYI:
Below are relevant tests of automotive air filters.  Not specific to SOHC4.  But certainly related, showing typical behavior of various filters in chart form.  A dust collection chart, as well as an airflow vs airspeed chart.  I'd love to hear a credible reason to not consider these as applicable/comparative to the SOHC4.

It is just so disingenuous to claim air filters don't degrade with use, when there is more than ample and respectable research that states otherwise.

Regards,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2017, 06:46:42 AM »
on farm machines like harvesters..ve have a vaccum indikator..vho gives s signal vhen the vaccum are to great...and dont normal klean the filters before it alarms..
.ve then blow air backverd through the element 2-5 times a week..it can be done a spec times( need kontroll evry time it are kleaned.).then the filter is dumped/or vashed and dryed and used some cycluses Again..so paper filters can be kleande and vashed..specily the expensive ones..i used to thange mine filters evry seson..just for safty..and to safe a bit fuel..
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 07:53:13 AM »
Quote
on farm machines like harvesters..ve have a vaccum indikator..vho gives s signal vhen the vaccum are to great...and dont normal klean the filters before it alarms..
.ve then blow air backverd through the element 2-5 times a week..it can be done a spec times( need kontroll evry time it are kleaned.).then the filter is dumped/or vashed and dryed and used some cycluses Again..so paper filters can be kleande and vashed..specily the expensive ones..i used to thange mine filters evry seson..just for safty..and to safe a bit fuel..
Ha Strynboen, thank you for that. This is really interesting. Some 8 years ago I've asked how much underpressure would be an indication. Do you have any idea (or can you find out) how much underpressure we're dealing with if such an indicator alarms? This because I wanna make something like it. Let me direct you to the original thread. Really interesting. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=47771.0
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 07:55:05 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 10:28:09 AM »
il thek some data up.the elektric indikators povers a alarm/horn..the mecanic ones just color indikates hov dirty it are
.but threre is some komplet mekanic ones..vho have a melbran and a spring..so a red dot komes to see ,,if the vacum had been to heigh.

.they have a air line to the intake..to feel the vaccum..you can reset the unit ..press a small tap in..vho release the red indikator-..that unit can easy be fitted to a sohc..
but think you can run for years..before it ever indikates anything..oil and damp/vater is the killers of paper filters..just thange filters evry 4 years is a cost efficent vay to do it..if the filters cost  many hundred euros like mine do..its a different story.

looks like the red line is 25" units" of vaccum..some kind of scale..??


« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 10:33:30 AM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 12:01:14 PM »
Quote
oil and damp/vater is the killers of paper filters
Exactly. Luckily my CB500 has the old style aircase without breather/separator under it, so my filter runs no risk and stays healthy. My gut feeling is that genuine paper filter elements can live much longer then folks would expect and that even when they look grey and dirty, they can still serve a long period of time. 
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 12:43:30 PM »
as long the bike dont soot the plugs..and can run max speed..i think the filters is fine..but insekts and rats can eat holes in them..and oil and vater can block the pores so the engine cant breathe..its just choke the engine if the filter is full of dirt..
here is somthing..but it are more basis..not spec for mc..
http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 12:47:40 PM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Stock air filer, how may miles?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 01:04:48 PM »
Yes, but that's for measuring underpressure at the intake manifold (between carbs and the head). I am interested to know if I can measure any underpressure at the plenum. I know, filters are cheap but it's just for fun and I am curious. I remember that interview years ago with that filter wholesaler who stated that many throw away perfectly good filters and now that I've read in an old brochure in my archives that a K&N replacement doesn't need to be cleaned before 50.000 kms of road use, I thought by myself: why wouldn't a standard filter be capable of the same distance? I mean, where I ride, there isn't much dust and the CB500 standard filter is quite big and sits well protected. Anyway, I will let you know.
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