Topic: Phosphoric acid, dilution?

[Terry in Australia]

Well I ordered 10 litres of Phosphoric acid from the local farm supply store near the army base where I work back in September, and every time I went there to see if it'd come in, they said, "nah, probably next week, mate", so after a few weeks of this I pretty much gave up.

Today I dropped by and asked, they couldn't even remember the order, but I walked around and found the drum on the shelf, it was delivered a week after I ordered it! Things are often very slow in a small country town................. 

Anyway, i've got it now, and I want to clean out some tanks, and de-rust some CB750 cylinder sleeves, so does anyone know what the dilution ratio should be? Most of the rust killers I've used were like 25% or less, so I'm not keen to use it neat? Lemme know guys, I want to do some today! Cheers, Terry.

[scunny]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MSDS Number: P3973 * * * * * Effective Date: 01/03/06 * * * * * Supercedes: 08/31/04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHOSPHORIC ACID

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Ortho-phosphoric acid; white phosphoric acid
CAS No.: 7664-38-2
Molecular Weight: 98.00
Chemical Formula: H3PO4 in H2O
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 0238, 0248, 0259, 0260, 0262, 0263, 0264, 0268, 0273, 0274, 5372, 5682, 5686, 5804, 5841, 5854, 6908
Mallinckrodt: 2779, 2788, 2796, 3563, H106, XM-223

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Composition/Information on Ingredients


  Ingredient                                CAS No         Percent        Hazardous                                 
  ---------------------------------------   ------------   ------------   ---------   
 
  Phosphoric Acid                           7664-38-2        55 - 95%        Yes                                                                   
  Water                                     7732-18-5         5 - 45%        No                                                                   
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
DANGER! CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE IRRITATION AND BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED.

SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 3 - Severe
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 2 - Moderate
Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive)
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: White (Corrosive)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Inhalation is not an expected hazard unless misted or heated to high temperatures. Mist or vapor inhalation can cause irritation to the nose, throat, and upper respiratory tract. Severe exposures can lead to a chemical pneumonitis.
Ingestion:
Corrosive. May cause sore throat, abdominal pain, nausea, and severe burns of the mouth, throat, and stomach. Severe exposures can lead to shock, circulatory collapse, and death.
Skin Contact:
Corrosive. May cause redness, pain, and severe skin burns.
Eye Contact:
Corrosive. May cause redness, pain, blurred vision, eye burns, and permanent eye damage.
Chronic Exposure:
No information found.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. First Aid Measures
Inhalation:
Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. Call a physician immediately.
Ingestion:
If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Get medical attention immediately.
Skin Contact:
Immediately flush skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing and shoes. Call a physician, immediately. Wash clothing before reuse.
Eye Contact:
Immediately flush eyes with gentle but large stream of water for at least 15 minutes, lifting lower and upper eyelids occasionally. Call a physician immediately.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Fire Fighting Measures
Fire:
Not considered to be a fire hazard. Contact with most metals causes formation of flammable and explosive hydrogen gas.
Explosion:
Not considered to be an explosion hazard.
Fire Extinguishing Media:
Use any means suitable for extinguishing surrounding fire. Water spray may be used to keep fire exposed containers cool. If water is used, use in abundance to control heat and acid build-up.
Special Information:
In the event of a fire, wear full protective clothing and NIOSH-approved self-contained breathing apparatus with full facepiece operated in the pressure demand or other positive pressure mode.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Accidental Release Measures
Ventilate area of leak or spill. Wear appropriate personal protective equipment as specified in Section 8. Isolate hazard area. Keep unnecessary and unprotected personnel from entering. Contain and recover liquid when possible. Neutralize with alkaline material (soda ash, lime), then absorb with an inert material (e. g., vermiculite, dry sand, earth), and place in a chemical waste container. Do not use combustible materials, such as saw dust. Do not flush to sewer! US Regulations (CERCLA) require reporting spills and releases to soil, water and air in excess of reportable quantities. The toll free number for the US Coast Guard National Response Center is (800) 424-8802.


J. T. Baker NEUTRASORB® or TEAM® 'Low Na+' acid neutralizers are recommended for spills of this product.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Handling and Storage
Keep in a tightly closed container. Protect from physical damage. Store in a cool, dry, ventilated area away from sources of heat, moisture, incompatibilities, and direct sunlight. Corrosive to mild steel. Store in rubber lined or 316 stainless steel designed for phosphoric acid. Do not wash out container and use it for other purposes. When diluting, the acid should always be added slowly to water and in small amounts. Never use hot water and never add water to the acid. Water added to acid can cause uncontrolled boiling and splashing. Protect from freezing. Containers of this material may be hazardous when empty since they retain product residues (vapors, liquid); observe all warnings and precautions listed for the product.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Exposure Controls/Personal Protection
Airborne Exposure Limits:
-OSHA Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL):
1 mg/m3 (TWA)

-ACGIH Threshold Limit Value (TLV):
1 mg/m3 (TWA), 3 mg/m3 (STEL)
Ventilation System:
A system of local and/or general exhaust is recommended to keep employee exposures below the Airborne Exposure Limits. Local exhaust ventilation is generally preferred because it can control the emissions of the contaminant at its source, preventing dispersion of it into the general work area. Please refer to the ACGIH document, Industrial Ventilation, A Manual of Recommended Practices, most recent edition, for details.
Personal Respirators (NIOSH Approved):
If the exposure limit is exceeded, a full facepiece respirator with high efficiency dust/mist filter may be worn up to 50 times the exposure limit or the maximum use concentration specified by the appropriate regulatory agency or respirator supplier, whichever is lowest. For emergencies or instances where the exposure levels are not known, use a full-facepiece positive-pressure, air-supplied respirator. WARNING: Air purifying respirators do not protect workers in oxygen-deficient atmospheres.
Skin Protection:
Wear impervious protective clothing, including boots, gloves, lab coat, apron or coveralls, as appropriate, to prevent skin contact.
Eye Protection:
Use chemical safety goggles and/or a full face shield where splashing is possible. Maintain eye wash fountain and quick-drench facilities in work area.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. Physical and Chemical Properties
Physical data below refers to concentrated phosphoric acid.
Appearance:
Clear, colorless syrupy liquid.
Odor:
Odorless.
Solubility:
Miscible in all proportions in water.
Specific Gravity:
1.69 @ 25C
pH:
1.5 (0.1 N aqueous solution)
% Volatiles by volume @ 21C (70F):
100
Boiling Point:
158C (316F)
Melting Point:
21C (70F)
Vapor Density (Air=1):
3.4
Vapor Pressure (mm Hg):
0.03 @ 20C (68F)
Evaporation Rate (BuAc=1):
No information found.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10. Stability and Reactivity
Stability:
Stable under ordinary conditions of use and storage. Substance can supercool without crystallizing.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Phosphorus oxides may form when heated to decomposition.
Hazardous Polymerization:
Will not occur.
Incompatibilities:
Liberates explosive hydrogen gas when reacting with chlorides and stainless steel. Can react violently with sodium tetrahydroborate. Exothermic reactions with aldehydes, amines, amides, alcohols and glycols, azo-compounds, carbamates, esters, caustics, phenols and cresols, ketones, organophosphates, epoxides, explosives, combustible materials, unsaturated halides, and organic peroxides. phosphoric acid forms flammable gases with sulfides, mercaptans, cyanides and aldehydes. It also forms toxic fumes with cyanides, sulfide, fluorides, organic peroxides, and halogenated organics. Mixtures with nitromethane are explosive.
Conditions to Avoid:
Incompatibles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11. Toxicological Information

Oral rat LD50: 1530 mg/kg; investigated as a mutagen.

  --------\Cancer Lists\------------------------------------------------------
                                         ---NTP Carcinogen---
  Ingredient                             Known    Anticipated    IARC Category
  ------------------------------------   -----    -----------    -------------
  Phosphoric Acid (7664-38-2)             No          No            None
  Water (7732-18-5)                       No          No            None


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12. Ecological Information
Environmental Fate:
When released into the soil, this material may leach into groundwater. When released to water, acidity may be readily reduced by natural water hardness minerals. The phosphate, however, may persist indefinitely.
Environmental Toxicity:
No information found.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

13. Disposal Considerations
Whatever cannot be saved for recovery or recycling should be handled as hazardous waste and sent to a RCRA approved incinerator or disposed in a RCRA approved waste facility. Processing, use or contamination of this product may change the waste management options. State and local disposal regulations may differ from federal disposal regulations. Dispose of container and unused contents in accordance with federal, state and local requirements.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

14. Transport Information
Domestic (Land, D.O.T.)
-----------------------
Proper Shipping Name: Phosphoric Acid Solution
Hazard Class: 8
UN/NA: UN1805
Packing Group: III
Information reported for product/size: 350LB

International (Water, I.M.O.)
-----------------------------
Proper Shipping Name: Phosphoric Acid Solution
Hazard Class: 8
UN/NA: UN1805
Packing Group: III
Information reported for product/size: 350LB



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15. Regulatory Information
  --------\Chemical Inventory Status - Part 1\---------------------------------
  Ingredient                                       TSCA  EC   Japan  Australia
  -----------------------------------------------  ----  ---  -----  ---------
  Phosphoric Acid (7664-38-2)                       Yes  Yes   Yes      Yes                                     
  Water (7732-18-5)                                 Yes  Yes   Yes      Yes                                     
 
  --------\Chemical Inventory Status - Part 2\---------------------------------
                                                          --Canada--
  Ingredient                                       Korea  DSL   NDSL  Phil.
  -----------------------------------------------  -----  ---   ----  -----
  Phosphoric Acid (7664-38-2)                       Yes   Yes   No     Yes       
  Water (7732-18-5)                                 Yes   Yes   No     Yes
 
  --------\Federal, State & International Regulations - Part 1\----------------
                                             -SARA 302-    ------SARA 313------
  Ingredient                                 RQ    TPQ     List  Chemical Catg.
  -----------------------------------------  ---   -----   ----  --------------
  Phosphoric Acid (7664-38-2)                No    No      No         No
  Water (7732-18-5)                          No    No      No         No
 
  --------\Federal, State & International Regulations - Part 2\----------------
                                                        -RCRA-    -TSCA-
  Ingredient                                 CERCLA     261.33     8(d)
  -----------------------------------------  ------     ------    ------
  Phosphoric Acid (7664-38-2)                5000       No         No     
  Water (7732-18-5)                          No         No         No                                                               
 
 
Chemical Weapons Convention:  No     TSCA 12(b):  No     CDTA:  No
SARA 311/312:  Acute: Yes      Chronic: No   Fire: No  Pressure: No
Reactivity: No          (Pure / Liquid)



Australian Hazchem Code: 2R
Poison Schedule: S5
WHMIS:
This MSDS has been prepared according to the hazard criteria of the Controlled Products Regulations (CPR) and the MSDS contains all of the information required by the CPR.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16. Other Information
NFPA Ratings: Health: 3 Flammability: 0 Reactivity: 0
Label Hazard Warning:
DANGER! CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE IRRITATION AND BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED.
Label Precautions:
Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing.
Keep container closed.
Use only with adequate ventilation.
Do not breathe vapor or mist.
Wash thoroughly after handling.
Label First Aid:
In case of contact, immediately flush eyes or skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. Remove contaminated clothing and shoes. Wash clothing before reuse. If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. In all cases call a physician immediately.
Product Use:
Laboratory Reagent.
Revision Information:
MSDS Section(s) changed since last revision of document include: 14.
Disclaimer:
************************************************************************************************
Mallinckrodt Baker, Inc. provides the information contained herein in good faith but makes no representation as to its comprehensiveness or accuracy. This document is intended only as a guide to the appropriate precautionary handling of the material by a properly trained person using this product. Individuals receiving the information must exercise their independent judgment in determining its appropriateness for a particular purpose. MALLINCKRODT BAKER, INC. MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE WITH RESPECT TO THE INFORMATION SET FORTH HEREIN OR THE PRODUCT TO WHICH THE INFORMATION REFERS. ACCORDINGLY, MALLINCKRODT BAKER, INC. WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR DAMAGES RESULTING FROM USE OF OR RELIANCE UPON THIS INFORMATION.
************************************************************************************************
Prepared by: Environmental Health & Safety
Phone Number: (314) 654-1600 (U.S.A.)

It should be ready now 

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Now George Dubya & the rest of the US government are on yer ass ! See what you got yourself into...........................

[750goes]

scunny, totally amazing information that you just typed in,,, and I thought kiwis were dumb......sorry.......

Terry  - dilute it 10 parts water to 1 part acid, and drop in a rusty bolt - leave it for one hour and come back -

DO NOT use a galvanised container for this experiment, and leave it out the back of the garage while it does its thing..when you pluck the part out - flush it with water for a few minutes - if its clean then its too strong a mix,

I use cheap plastic containers from Bunnings - because after you use them they are stuffed and very brittle.

you fixing Geoffs swingarm ?? - he threw it down the road when he could not get the bushes out- hopefully not the one he is sending you to fix....

[Terry in Australia]

Geez thanks for that Scunny, I hope you scanned or downloaded that MSDS, I wouldn't have bothered typing all that stuff, and I got an MSDS with the acid anyway? 

Thanks to you too Charlie, 1:10 you reckon? Ok, I'll give it a bash mate, I'd like to get a heavy duty plastic tub with a lid so I can re-use it, I'll sneak around to Bunnings tomorrow to see what I can find.

Geoff is sending me a swingarm to re-bush for him, it sounds like the same one mate, I explained the "hacksaw cut" method of removing the old bushes, and he's got it fixed now, I hope it's not too dented from his feats of athletiscism, ha ha!   

Griffy, I reckon GW has bigger fish to fry right now, ha ha! 

[750goes]

Terry,

If you have an old pool chlorine bucket, they are good to use - and they have a pretty tight fitting lid

BUT, when you put the part in it, just drop the lid on- don't screw it on- let the fumes out..

Ideal solution mix is for you to put the part or parts in, forget about them for at least 12 hours and then pull them out nice and shiny... the odd swish around with the old broom handle also helps... plus a quick inspection of some pieces during the 12 hours helps to calm your nerves on the first few dippings.

experiment with a few unwanted parts first, then when you get better at judging the mix ratios, do your good parts....

just keep the dog and cat away from the bucket in case they want a drink..

[scunny]

750goes, dumb I can't answer that's for others to say 
no I didn't type it, did a google search(copy/paste) but it looks a promising chemical to have in the garage/shop. you've got to love those MSDS sheets tho," always wear safety spectacles when using this product"

[Jay B]

I used The Works toilet bowl cleaner on my 350f tank. The active ingrediant is phosphoric acid, but I imagine it's quite dilute. About 30 minutes, sloshing it around every few minutes cleaned it right up. Maybe look at a bottle of that to see what concentration is in it.

[jtb]

Terry, I'm going to Home Depot today.  I'll read the label on the stuff I used & let you know.

By the way,  Merry Christmas.

John

[Terry in Australia]

Hey thanks guys, I'm being dragged away to clean up the patio and yard etc for tonights Christmas Eve BBQ, so if I don't get a chance to get back here for awhile, Merry Christmas! Cheers, Terry.

[scunny]

put an extra prawn on the barbie for me Terry.

[Terry in Australia]

put an extra prawn on the barbie for me Terry.

I will mate, but you'll have to eat it, I'm allergic to seafood! (hey don't hang #$%* on me mate, all super-hero's have one weakness, ha ha!) 

[jtb]

Terry,

I looked on the stuff I used at Home Depot, nowhere on the label does it give the dilution.  Sorry,
John

[mrblasty]

Terry,  I thought kangaroo "tail" was your weakness.

[Terry in Australia]

Don't talk to me about bloody Kangaroo's mate, I rode my (beautiful) BMW K1100LT to work on Friday, a nice 120 Mile round trip, on the way home it started to rain (no problem) but a herd of the big grey buggers decided to step out in front of me and 'prop' when I was doing about 80 Mph on the freeway, if it wasn't for my lightning reactions and the BMW's ABS, I'd be spending Christmas in hospital! (or worse...........) 

John, don't worry about it mate, I finally settled on 1:3 to water, and it's working magnificently, I bought a 16" "Hog" rim at a swap meet last year and thought I would need to get it rechromed, but an hour or so in the tub of Phosphoric, and it's as clean as a whistle!

I've got a K2 tank in there at the moment, and it's looking fantastic, I'm very tempted to drop my old rusted out F2 tank in there now as well, and see if I can't save it? Ooh and I've got fenders, brake pedals, cast iron discs, the possibilities are endless, I tells ya!

For you Aussies (and anyone else who know's the old "Aeroplane Jelly" song) sing along with me!

I love Phosphoric acid,
Phosphoric acid for me,
It cleaned up my rim,
And removed my skin,
But I don't care 'cos it does everything,
Yes I love Phosphoric acid,
Phosphoric acid for me...........................! 



 

[kghost]

Your a twisted bastard Terry........

I'd feel bad you only have a rusted out F2 tank but I know I sent you a good one....


Hows that endurance project coming along?

[750goes]

Terry,

the fumes got to you if you can remember the rhyme to Aeroplane Jelly.

or is it just the christmas spirit..??

I recommended a 10 to 1 because the process should be slow - just like the rust that attacked the parts - if you do it too fast then the item may well be effed if you forget about it for too long at a stronger strength...two cents worth..

merry xmas

[Terry in Australia]

Terry,

the fumes got to you if you can remember the rhyme to Aeroplane Jelly.

or is it just the christmas spirit..??

I recommended a 10 to 1 because the process should be slow - just like the rust that attacked the parts - if you do it too fast then the item may well be effed if you forget about it for too long at a stronger strength...two cents worth..

merry xmas

Thanks Charlie, and I'm happy to thin it some more, but a bottle of rust remover i found at Bunnings was 35% Phosphoric, so i figured that 1:3 was ok? But I can add more water mate, no worries! If that tank isn't there in the morning, I'm watering it down! 

Hey Tim, thanks again for that beautiful tank mate, it will be excellent when I paint it, I just can't decide whether to paint it red, or paint everything else black? Cheers, Terry.

[jtb]

Paint it Black.  I see a red tank and I want...

[Jinxracing]

If memories of chemistry class server correct, you're supposed to "always add acid" meaning to add the acid to water but not add water to acid. The Chem teacher was full of dire warnings of acid exploding out of a beaker and melting our faces off if done incorrectly. Thought I'd bring this up just in case the fumes and singing get you to forgetting Terry. 

[Terry in Australia]

Thanks Jinxy, the problem is that if i need to further dilute it I won't have a choice, but it's a pretty mild acid anyway (my hands have been soaking in it..........) so if I'm careful, I should be ok.

Of course, if my face is burned off with acid, I'll no doubt assume some super-powers as a trade off, so it won't be all bad, ha ha!

Paint it Black. I see a red tank and I want it to turn black...

No colors anymore I want it to turn black................. Merry Christmas John!

[Hop on a Honda]

Terry.
I have seen a tank which was origionally rusted. It was dunked in phosphoric acid for X time then it was then soaked in acid/Copper sulphate with a current running through it Then the inside and the outside was copper coated. Looked great
Ask on this application.
Happy Christmas. Hows the bush fires and snow?
Dave

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Dave, Merry Christmas mate! Well the bushfires aren't all out, but now that it's snowed on some of them up in the high country, and drizzled on them everywhere else it's slowed their progress somewhat, and the cold weather is keeping it that way, so it's good.

Copper coating? Now that's a good idea, I remember copper coating a steel pin with my son's chemistry set years ago, a copper anode in an acid solution with a small charge from a "AA" battery, but I can't remember the acid mix? I'll do some checking, it might be fun to have a copper plated tank?

I pulled one tank out of the phosphoric acid solution, it looks magnificent, so I quickly threw another one in, and I'll prime it one day this week in preparation for some candy paint. Cheers, Terry.

[Terry in Australia]

Ooooer, well i learned something new the day before yesterday, don't leave cast iron overnight in Phosphoric acid, it pretty much dissolves it!

I pulled out some 836cc sleeves I was (was.......  ) gonna use in my racer engine, and I thought, "Geez, these feel light?" before realising that they were just the paper thin remains of some otherwise good sleeves.

Oh well, plenty more where they came from, boo hoo! 

[Sam Green Racing]

You're a diamond Terry

Sam.