Topic: Central Air and Heat unit out, first timer dealing with this, help!

[edwardmorris]

So, 2017 continues on at 60 WTFs/hour. Out of the blue, my fine running central heating and air decided to go out on me. Its a 19yr old 100K BTU Carrier weathermaker with a variable speed blower motor. Upon inspection, and having a "pro" look at it, it turned out to be the blower motor which costs $1600 to replace. The guy said its not worth it and better to get a newer more efficient furnace. Also mentioned that this was overkill for my small living space and I should stick to a 8K BTU unit. So I called around and couldn't locate the motor to try and replace it myself. Found it online for about $1400 and went yea, this isn't worth it. So I had a few local HVAC shops stop by and give me estimates and its just been one $hitty ride.

All of these are for 80K BTU 2 stage

Quote 1

American Standard unit fully installed for $4300!

Quote 2

Carrier unit fully installed $4200!

Quote 3

York unit fully installed $3800

Quote 4

Payne unit fully installed $3250

Quote 5

Rheem unit fully installed $3100



What do I do? We've owned the place for only 5 years and so far I've manged to fix the dryer, water heater and stove on my own when they acted up, but this seems beyond a DIY.

[seanbarney41]

blower motors can often be rebuilt...at least 3 motor repair shops in Kalamazoo and probably a heck of a lot more in metro Chicago so you might do some research towards that end

Also might be a cheaper standard replacement motor without the high oem pricetag that could work in it's place?

[eigenvector]

20 years is pretty old.  It's about the lifespan of them.

The quotes aren't out of line either - be wary of outliers, either they don't want the job, want to take you for all you have, or don't know what they're doing (super low prices).

I'll replace a blower, and in fact asked that very question here this spring, but if the whole unit is shot - and after 20 years it probably is, that's what pros are for.  Of course - see my other rant about my experiences with "pros"

[Stev-o]

I just replaced one of the systems in my home, it was 19 years old.
I've had a couple minor issues the last 2 summers and thought it was time.

It is typically not cost effective to rebuild an electric motor under 1 hp, $1400 for a motor is crazy.

You could change out just the air handler [unit in the attic] it would need to match your condenser [unit that is outside]. But, you may not get a full warranty since you are just replacing half.

If you plan to stay, I'd recommend biting the bullet and installing the entire system.  Most units give a 10 year parts warranty on everything and 1 year on labor.

I did research, American Standard [made by Trane] got the best reviews. However, my local HVAC contractor was not a AS dealer, so I went with Goodman [made in Houston].

For a 3 ton unit [serves the 2nd Fl in my home] I paid $4500 [received 2 bids for same price].  It was a real b!tch to get the new air handler in my attic, the jump hole is only about 2x2'.

Been cool ever since and no regrets.

BTW - the unit I replaced was a Payne, I would not recommend.

[edwardmorris]

Oh man! I was hoping you guys would tell me those numbers were outrageous! If they're not that far off, then I'm glad at least the local shops aren't ripping ppl mercilessly. I had one other guy stop by late, he quoted

$3800 for a Lennox 90K BTU 2 stage (no 80K in that line) installed.

That's still pricey but apparently Lennox is the second best? There's also a $250 rebate from my utility company which helps a little.


@Sean, I wanted to go the rebuilt motor route but my father-in-law and most of the guys giving estimates warned me of the heat exchanger getting old. Looks like I will have to pick a good brand with the least cost now  Also the motor has an electronic unit attached to it and apparently a standard/generic can't be installed in its place.

[Stev-o]

One other thing to consider is the efficiency rating. I went with a 14 seer which is very good. A 16 or higher, would be better but the cost of the equip would be much higher.

 I don't plan on living in this home forever, so didnt think the ROI would be worth it.

[danyo]

Those quotes you get are for complete system, furnace and a/c condenser??

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[seanbarney41]

ooo kayyy...so my house is over one hundred years old, the furnace was installed maybe in the 1940's and is still going strong.  I don't feel the need for central air conditioning because its not that hot here in Michigan and my house is surrounded by huge trees so it doesn't even get hot in here even in the summer.  I will now leave you guys to your first world problems. lol

[edwardmorris]

Those quotes you get are for complete system, furnace and a/c condenser??

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

Just the furnace.

[Bailgang]

Don't feel bad, the AC evaporator froze up into a block of ice on mine about a month ago, possible cause could be the evaporator needs a good cleaning, system low on freon or the evaporator is just junk. I went through 2 cans of evaporator cleaner to get it as clean as I could get it (already cleaned compressor) then proceeded to clean the rest of the furnace while I was at it, the evaporator wasn't so bad since I've cleaned it once before years ago but once I got down to the blower fan I was in for a surprise. It was the very first time I've cleaned it and I've got to tell you it was one of the most filthy disgusting things I've ever cleaned, it had so much crap built up on the fan blades that it was a wonder it was moving any air at all and I had to disassemble the entire blower/fan unit to properly clean it. Once everything was clean and back together the system worked like a charm, it was pushing a significant amount of air due to the fan being clean and it was cold however that cold only lasted for about an hour and a half and the evaporator froze up again. I still have to call an AC/heating repairman to check it out to tell me exactly what's wrong but then I'll have to decide whether to fix just the AC portion of the system or replace it all since the entire system is about 20+ years old. The only good part about it all is that this has been an incredibly mild summer for us in this part of Indiana so not having a working AC hasn't been that big of a deal.

[calj737]

You might be better off doing mini-splits with multi head units. Gets you heat and AC in a multi zone configuration.

[Stev-o]

Those quotes you get are for complete system, furnace and a/c condenser??

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

Just the furnace.

Your quote sound high, I thought the prices you stated were for a complete system.

I paid $4500 for the complete 3 ton split system - air handler w/elec heat in the attic and condenser outside.

Electric heat systems are cheaper, not as efficient, but I dont have gas service at my home [and dont use heat all that often]

[jerry h]

Whats wrong with the motor?  Bearings bad, or electrical problem?   If it's bearings, that would be fixable.  Looked at youtube for ECM motor repair, and one common problem is a burned out inrush current limiter on the control board.

You would be able to see if it was burned out just by looking at it.    When I have these kind of problems, I figure if you are going to replace the furnace anyway, doesn't hurt to open the motor up and see if it is a simple problem, or not. (if you decide to check it out yourself, turn off the furnace circuit breaker first!) Guess it also depends on how hard it is to remove the motor from the furnace...

Maybe something to think about if you didn't want to replace the unit at this time, if the rest of the unit is working properly, and just the motor died.

[danyo]

Pm sent.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[edwardmorris]

Whats wrong with the motor?  Bearings bad, or electrical problem?   If it's bearings, that would be fixable.  Looked at youtube for ECM motor repair, and one common problem is a burned out inrush current limiter on the control board.

You would be able to see if it was burned out just by looking at it.    When I have these kind of problems, I figure if you are going to replace the furnace anyway, doesn't hurt to open the motor up and see if it is a simple problem, or not. (if you decide to check it out yourself, turn off the furnace circuit breaker first!) Guess it also depends on how hard it is to remove the motor from the furnace...

Maybe something to think about if you didn't want to replace the unit at this time, if the rest of the unit is working properly, and just the motor died.

It is most likely the bearings. The motor turns by hand with great struggle and makes noise. I looked at videos to pull the motor out and this one has a shaft that is pressed into the housing aroud it. They do not recommend hammaring it out of there. There's a special tool for removal. Also its not the easiest to remove as the housing has to come out and that is behind a maze of circuitry. I'm going to make some calls and see if any local shops are willing to do a motor rebuild.


Timing of this failure is bad too, had to juggle with it and work during the week, now we're attending a wedding this weekend. I have two more leads I am following up on, but either way I'll make a decision by Monday. For now I'm looking forward to a couple days in a room with A/C. Thanks for all the input guys, as always. Makes it a lot easier for me to deal with these things

[BobbyR]

Your quotes are pretty good. I am replacing both units in a week or two. They are over 25 years old which is past their normal lifespan. Goodman, Amana and York are not being considered since they have gone down hill in reliability. I am making the investment now since furnaces never crap out in July and AC never craps out in February.  If you have the cash I would do it now and relax. If you plan stay in the home I would do it. Some stuff you should not patch up or jury rig.

[Bailgang]

This thread finally got me motivated to call a local heating/cooling shop and get my AC sorted out today but to avoid hijacking this thread I'll post the results in the "pissed off" thread.

[calj737]

And don't forget, you DO get a tax credit for the purchase as an "Energy Savings" expense/improvement. Doesn't help with the cashflow today, but might make a nice stipend next Spring when you are needing to buy new exhaust pipes 

[Duke McDukiedook]

You might be better off doing mini-splits with multi head units. Gets you heat and AC in a multi zone configuration.

This is an option you should look at. The guys at my Johnstone supply warned about Lennox about replacing parts- they have some hard to source proprietary stuff that dings you when it comes to repair time.

[BobbyR]

I have looked at all of the options. The very high efficiency units do not work for me since the payback. In this climate it does not warrant the upfront expense for natural gas. Tax credit or not. I also want a unit that can be repaired easily without complicated or pricey parts like Lennnox. I am going with a second tier unit for both AC and heat. On my current furnace I replaced the induction fan with one I found online, cheaper and easy. Carrier or American Standard seem to be the best choices. I am now negotiating the final price.

[edwardmorris]

Thanks again for all the input fellas, much appreciated. I've had another Rheem guy come by for a quote, and after his inspection he recommended going with a 90K BTU unit after looking at our living space. Well reviewed and old business from a town over, they quoted $3026 out the door price and I agreed. They will be installing it this Thursday if all goes well. I'm still without air conditioning but at least its going to cool off the next couple of days.

[chewbacca5000]

So, 2017 continues on at 60 WTFs/hour. Out of the blue, my fine running central heating and air decided to go out on me. Its a 19yr old 100K BTU Carrier weathermaker with a variable speed blower motor. Upon inspection, and having a "pro" look at it, it turned out to be the blower motor which costs $1600 to replace. The guy said its not worth it and better to get a newer more efficient furnace. Also mentioned that this was overkill for my small living space and I should stick to a 8K BTU unit. So I called around and couldn't locate the motor to try and replace it myself. Found it online for about $1400 and went yea, this isn't worth it. So I had a few local HVAC shops stop by and give me estimates and its just been one $hitty ride.

All of these are for 80K BTU 2 stage

Quote 1

American Standard unit fully installed for $4300!

Quote 2

Carrier unit fully installed $4200!

Quote 3

York unit fully installed $3800

Quote 4

Payne unit fully installed $3250

Quote 5

Rheem unit fully installed $3100



What do I do? We've owned the place for only 5 years and so far I've manged to fix the dryer, water heater and stove on my own when they acted up, but this seems beyond a DIY.

It it is just the account it is almost winter.  Wait a week or so and you won't   need ac

[BobbyR]

  Just signed the contract for this work. Very reputable outfit and they were not nickel and dimeing me. Since I have a flue pipe in common with the water heater it came down to one furnace. I upgraded the AC condenser. Most would only flush the R22 from the lines or charge me $500 to $800 to put in a new lines. Here it is included. Since I plan on stay ing here, it was time to renew the systems. The heating season and cooling season in this part of NY are not that long so super efficiency is a very long return on investment.



  Net Investment: $7,945



    Carrier 58STA090116  Brochure
    -Comfort Series
    -Gas Furnace
    -Single Stage 80%
    -10 year parts limited to original purchaser upon timely registration
    -Otherwise 5 years (Applies to residential installation only)
    -20 Year Heat Exchanger

    Carrier CNPVP4217ALA
    -Evaporator Coil

    Carrier 24ACC642A003  Brochure
    -Performance Series
    -Air Conditioner
    -Single Stage
    -10 year parts timely registration
    -Otherwise 5 years

3.5 TON UP TO 16 SEER UNIT


    - MAIN ELECTRICAL AND CONTROL WIRING NOT INCLUDED IF NEEDED (CAN RECOMMEND)
    - REMOVE AND DISPOSE OF PROPERLY EXISTING UNIT
    - RE-CONNECT EXISTING DUCTWORK
    - FURNISH AND INSTALL A NEW REFRIGERANT LINE SET
    - RE-CONNECT EXISTING GAS PIPING
    - FURNISH AND INSTALL NEW CONDENSER PAD
    - FURNISH AND INSTALL NEW PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT

    - NEW CONDENSATE PUMP
    - PLENUM CHANGE OUT
    - RE-CONNECT TO EXISTING PIPING, DUCTWORK AND ELECTRICAL
    - RE-CONNECT NEW/EXISTING FLUE PIPING
    - RE-CONNECT EXISTING DRAIN PIPING
    - START AND TEST COMPLETED INSTALLATION