Author Topic: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)  (Read 4435 times)

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Offline Scott S

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Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« on: September 01, 2017, 05:11:06 PM »
 I can't get the rear cylinder to idle. I suspect a plugged pilot jet circuit. The carbs were professionally rebuilt, but I did run the bike on an IV bottle for a while, so it's possible that there's trash in the slow jet.

 Front cylinder/pipe gets hot. Rear cylinder/pipe does not. I'm getting a fat purple spark that will jump a substantial gap. The outer plug WAS gas fouled today, but I've been messing with it and trying to get it to idle on both cylinders. Fresh plug made no difference.
 I poured SeaFoam into the carbs and let them sit for 4 hours. Drained it, added gas, no change. I tried to pull the mixture screw, but I can't get it out of the carb body. Wish it was magnetic. No change when turning the mixture screw on that cylinder.

 I suspect the slow jet because when I ride the bike there's a BIG rush of power just past 3,000 RPM, once it gets on the needle/main. That cylinder/pipe starts to get a little heat in it then. I'm only riding it on what's in the bowls until the new petcock gets here.

 The gas tank will be coming off in the next day or two for a new petcock, so I thought about pulling the plenum and the carb top on that cylinder and checking the diaphragm.

 Before I pull the carbs, is there ANYTHING else I should check first? Anything electrical?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 12:32:03 PM »
  Pulled the carbs today.. Pulled the main jet, emulsion tube, pilot jet and mixture screw and cleaned all of them and all associated passages. Did a bench sync. Didn't really find anything, to be honest.
  Still having the same problem. Checked choke operation. Checked fuel level in bowls using the clear tube method...both the same. Ran the bike with air box off and diaphragms/slides are working. If I put my hand over the rear carb, it wants to pick up and I get fuel on my hand. It just acts like it's not getting fuel to the slow circuit on that carb. Checked compression on that cylinder and got over 175 PSI. Fat purple/white spark. I'm stumped. Guess the carbs are coming off again.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 08:13:43 PM »
Scott, check for vacuum leaks. Did the vacuum petcock tap into the rear cylinder?
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 04:29:56 AM »
 I checked for leaks around the carbs when I had it running yesterday. Sprayed carb cleaner all around the carbs and intake boots and found nothing. I was running it at that time without the air box plenum so that I could check operation of the slides/diaphragms (and because it's a bit of a #$%* to get the plenum on).
 The vacuum for the petcock does tap into the rear cylinder, but I have that small hose plugged with a screw right now.

 I can choke the rear carb by covering it with my hand and it will pick up a bit and my hand gets wet with fuel.
 When revving the bike, I can see a slight bit of fuel stand off "fog"  on the front carb but nothing on the rear carb.
 There is definitely fuel in the bowl(s). And when I put a clear tube on the drain tube, both carbs show a similar level.
 Getting a "signal" from that cylinder....I can tell that when I put my hand over the throat of the carb. You can feel the vacuum it's pulling.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2017, 12:12:22 PM »
Do the VT carbs have "air cut-off valves", like the FT?
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2017, 01:49:59 PM »
 Um.... I'm not sure. You mean the choke operation? The choke is odd. It actually PLUGS a hole in the carb when the bike is warm and the choke is OFF. When you turn the choke ON, it opens a passage to add extra fuel.
 I've checked that circuit multiple times as well and checked the depth of the plungers. Everything is spot on.

 I pulled the carbs a second time this morning. Pulled every possible jet on that carb AND the diaphragm. Cleaned every single passage with carb cleaner, guitar string, compressed air, etc. Soaked the slow jet, main jet and emulsion tube in Seafoam and cleaned them again. At this point, I am very, very confident that everything is clean.

 Checked valve adjustment on that cylinder again. Had a "tight" .004 on the intake so re-adjusted them. The exhaust, which is a bit difficult to get to, was a loose .004 (call it a tight .005), so I left it alone. Turned the engine over and watched valve actuation. Swapped spark plugs around again.
 Started it up (starts instantly, BTW) and....same thing. It's simply not running on the rear cylinder at idle. At this point, I'm starting to suspect the ignitor. I'm getting good spark when grounding a plug, but who knows what's happening in that cylinder under compression? I was texting a buddy who owns a motorcycle repair shop and he says he's seen faulty ignitors cause similar issues. It may be firing, but not at the right time, or not under the compression of the cylinder.
 That's a clue, because there is fuel on the plugs when I pull them. They're not dry, like the carb isn't working. BUT....that cylinder will kick in under higher revs, so....who knows?
 I'm really stumped at this point.

 There are two ignitor boxes. I wonder if I can swap the plugs and see if the issue moves to the front cylinder?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 02:27:49 PM »
Here are a couple of pics of the air cut-off valve on the FT. The reason I mention it is I played with it some, like trying a stiffer spring and removing the spring altogether, and in one of those configurations, it didn't want to run at all at lower RPMs. It felt like it was way too rich??
 
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 02:44:18 PM »
 No, the twin does not have that air cutoff valve.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 02:48:18 PM »
Does the VT use pulse generator/pickup coils like the cb650's?
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 02:58:20 PM »
Does the VT use pulse generator/pickup coils like the cb650's?

 Yes. From my manual:

 "The ignition system consists of 2 ignition coils, 2 spark units, 2 ignition pulse generators and 4 spark plugs (2 per cylinder).
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2017, 03:01:49 PM »
Does it have a mechanical advancer like the 650, or is the advance electronic, like the FT?
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2017, 03:20:56 PM »
 All electronic, CDI ignition. No mechanical advance.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2017, 05:55:15 PM »
Have you got a timing light? Check the timing of the rear cylinder. Just like the cb's, it should be at the F mark at idle speed, and increase to full advance at the speed specified in the manual (3500 RPM for the FT).
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2017, 05:55:47 PM »
Got it guys! Third time's the charm!
I have to admit, it was a bit of a bonehead move on my part, but suggestions here to go ahead and swap pilot jets and confirm jet sizes set me on the right path.
Turns out I was cleaning the FRONT cylinder carb every time! It's easy to get them confused when you pull them, flip them around and turn them upside down on the bench.
Found trash in the pilot jet. On the CORRECT REAR carb! LOL.
Running like it's supposed to now!
New petcock should be here tomorrow and I can (hopefully) wrap it up for good!
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2017, 06:00:12 PM »
Damn you!!! I just blew beer out my nose! >:( >:( >:(
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2017, 06:21:39 PM »
I can now R&R Ascot carbs in about three minutes flat, though. With my eyes closed.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline scottly

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2017, 06:50:22 PM »
I'll bet you can!! ;D ;D ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Online calj737

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2017, 07:10:29 PM »
I can now R&R Ascot frontcarbs in about three minutes flat, though. With my eyes closed. It ages me about 3 weeks to do the rear one.
;)
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Offline Fezzler

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Re: Before I pull the carbs again..... (1984 VT500 Ascot)
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2017, 08:19:07 AM »
Yea!
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