Topic: Starting a rusty '77 CB550K

[Tvag]

Yes, I am a Noob. Both to motorcycles and any type of mechanical repair. But! I'm passionate and want to see if I can get a rusty '77 CB550K running before I invest a lot of time and money into it. I'm willing to do a lot to see if she'll start and I'm looking for some help in doing so. Here's the senario:

Stored for 20 years, no gas in carbs or tank
Very little rust in tank
Spark plugs have been cleaned but not checked for spark
Ignition points have been checked and appear (to a novice) to be accurate
Kickstarter has full range of motion without locking up
Old oil, at correct level (no need to change I figure until she proves she'll run)
No battery but have hooked up to car battery via jumper cables
Wiring and electrics are functioning in full

In my first attempt to start her I put a little gas down the fuel line (tank has been removed) into the carbs to try and get her started. It was cold in the garage (40-50 degrees) and after some reading I fear I may not have had enough fuel to start her in the cold conditions. Also, as mentioned above, I assumed the spark plugs are functioning but have not checked for spark. My intentions tonight are to put some more gas into the carbs along with some 'starter fluid' to see if I can get her going. Any suggestions? I'm opening the choke full and also varying throddle. With my first attempt I appeared that I didn't even come close (using both starter and kickstart). I could feal and hear the gears moving but heard no combustion at all. Any help? Am I on the right track? What would you do?
 
Looking forward to this forum. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide me! If I can get my hands on a camera I'll take pictures and post them for you here.

T

[tsransom]

First thing I would do is check for spark on all four cylinders.  If you have spark, I would kick the motor over until you have oil pressure(until the oil light goes out), Put the sparkplugs back in, Fill the float bowls with fuel, and attempt to start it.

I wouldn't run the engine very long with 20 year old oil!

[Cowboy]

Hey Tvag!

This sounds like the same process I went through recently. My bike was sitting for only ten years, and there was still a bit of gas in the tank, though it smelled truly awful. All the fuel in the float bowls had dried up and left a lot of crud inside, and I'll bet your float bowls are similarly full of crud.

Have faith, my bike fired up Friday night, for the first time in ten years, and it sounds fantastic! (Deep snow in the driveway has kept me from trying to take it for a ride yet)

Here's what I did to get mine running:

First, these bikes have a reputation for poor electrical connections, because the bullet-style connectors corrode inside. Get yourself some wet-or-dry sandpaper, to clean up the connectors, inside and out. (any grit will work, if you have some around. I used 600 grit.) Roll it up into a tube, and use the tube to clean corrosion out from  inside the female connectors. Then clean up the outside of the male parts. Then make sure, before you reconnect, that the connection between male and female is tight. You should feel resistance as you push the male part in, and feel a definite snap as the connection goes together. You can use pliers to gently squeeze the female portion from the outside, if you need to tighten up your connectors after cleaning them.

I started, like you, wanting to know that the thing runs, before tearing in to other systems, so I started by just cleaning up the connections in the ignition and starting circuits. (All lthe lights worked anyway)

Next, I took apart the carbs to clean them up. Surf over to the FAQs on this site, and you'll find links to a couple sites that show a carb cleanup/rebuild from start to finish with lots of pictures. Don't be afraid to tear into the carbs. They are sensitive devices, but as long as you are careful, and follow the directions to keep the parts straight, you should be able to tear down the carbs and get them back together and running again.

Use oven cleaner to remove the dried-up gas from the float chambers. You can use carb cleaner from a spray can, and a pipecleaner to clear out the many air and fuel passages in the carbs. blow through them all with an air nozzle afterward, before you re-assemble. Make sure you take the fuel jets out, take the jet loose from the emulsion tube, and cleann the emulsion tubes inside and out. They have minute little holes that are necessary to creat a properly-functioning fuel circuit. Dried gas will plug those holes and the bike won't run right until you've cleaned them.

Be careful to follow the directions for "bench-synching" the four carbs before you re-install them. (search this site for "bench-sync" to find instructions.) Screw the air-bleed screws in fully, then back them each out one and a half turns before you re-install the carbs.

Make sure you put the carb floats back in right--side-up. They will fit in upside down, and when you screw the float chambers back together, no fuel will get in! (Ask me how I know!)

After that, I put things back together, and the bike fired right up. I hope your luck is as good!

Cowboy

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Welcome to the Forum, Tvag!.. and to motorcycling in general and SOHC/4 vintage Honda's in particular!

To get 'er started, you need an explosive fuel mixture, compression, and a spark delivered at close to the right time.  Check for spark first.  Pull each plug and kick her over (key on, kill switch on, fuel off).  It will probably happen too fast to see, but plug #1 & #4 will spark at the same time.  Plugs #2 & #3 will spark together, exactly opposite from 1 & 4. 

Open the points cover (assuming you have points and not an electronic module.  There are 2 sets of points.  The face of the points should be shiny and come together flat.  Use a points file (not sand paper) to clean or flatten if needed.  Check for proper gap.  Set the points labled 1-4 then the points labled 2-3.  I know you are new to motorcycle mechanics, but you should be able to see how to adjust them independently.  A manual will help tremendously here!

If you have spark and have statically timed the points, next will be fuel.  A carb sitting dry for 20 years will still develop some corrosion, stuck parts, and dry seals.  You may get lucky with the starting fluid, but a carb cleaning/rebuild is likely in your future if you wish to pursue this bike.  A tank of fresh gas with a strong mix of SeaFoam (available at most parts stores) may help, but prepare for a carb rebuild.

Should it fire up, as TS said, you don't want to run it long on 20 year old oil, but run it long enough to heat up the exhaust header pipes.  Check that all 4 get warm.  A cold pipe will tell you that you have an issue with that cylinder or, more likely that carb.

OK, that should take care of your immediate mechanical needs.  Now for some motorcycle philosophy.  A new cyclist and a new cycle mechanic are two very dangerous people.  Doubly so when they are the SAME person!  I know this because I fit that description about a year ago.  Reason for the danger is that these bikes have few backup systems and little crash protection.  A failing component may go unnoticed by the junior mechanic and the novice cyclist won't know how to handle the failure when on the road.   

Once you get the bike running, seek out a local motorcyclist, preferably someone that works on bikes.  Someone old.  Someone who has heard of points!  Have them look it over.  Get a repair manual.  You can find some electronic copies on-line, but a printed manual works much better in the shop.  A set of good tools is well worth the investment, running bike or not.  Check out the operation of every system before you venture out onto the road.  Stay in your back yard, driveway or parking lot until you are 100% confident in your engine, clutch, cables, electrics, tires and especially your brakes.  Use this time to take a M/C safety course.  Don't skimp on safety equipment (good, full face helmet, leather or padded long sleeve jacket, riding gloves with skid pads, good boots).  Don't trust anyone on 4 or more wheels (cagers, we call 'em).  Stock up on 15-amp fuses (trust me on that one, I have the identical bike!).  Read this forum religiously.

And again, welcome to the insanity!

[Tvag]

Thanks for the pointers guys. I really appreciate the support. I'll give it one serious heroic last attempt to get her started checking plugs and rechecking the points before. Maybe even clean up the wiring. And if she won't go, I'll fearlessly take on the carbs and hope for the best. What do I have to lose, the bike was free and I'll learn something at the least. I would LOVE to see her running before I take her apart, though.

Clymer manual should be in today and that will help me a lot, me thinks. I'm getting the impression this is all about trial & error and patience.

Is there anything else I should know about CB550's? Any indispencible knowledge you have gained?

[kuyarico]

There's a lot of good information in the FAQ's. I've read most of it. My advice to you would be to change the oil pronto. Typical motor oil has a shelf life of 3 to 5 years before it starts to break down. Be careful jumpstarting from a car, you run the risk of frying the regulator or other electrical bits. Also, how did you verify that 'Wiring and electrics are functioning in full'?

quote from SteveD CB500F from another thread:

You need to use the scientific method:

1. Spark
2. Fuel
3. Air

Without any of these it won't fire.

So,  check the spark first

then check if the plugs are wet

post back

[Klark Kent]

if the plugs arent wet, it could be because the fuel system is gravity fed- as in the weight of the fuel in the tank pushes the fuel to the carbs.  get a tank (full with gas and at least half a pint of seafoam before you take the carbs off.  my 550k1 wasnt running when i got it, but after i took the carb bowls off (almost as hard as removing the carbs and must be done with a small right angle screw driver) and cleaned the piss out of em and made sure the floats where moving freely, spraying them from under with carb cleaner i was able to start her up.  but it did take a carb reassembly and bench sync to get her running right.    so if you just want to hear it start you could try cleaning the bottoms only like that, but change the oil before you do, and if you are so bold as to ride it make sure you get some new tires on there.  old tires dont grip and your new labor of love will be horizontal quickly on twnety year old, cold tires on cold asphalt.  as far as specifics to the 550, it likes cold weather and high rpms, and is practically bulletproof.  The one thing to look for is rocker cover wear in the earlier ones- -i believe it was fixed in '78- where the rockers will start to spin in their holes.  you can fix this by fitting o-rings in the space if rocker wear has not occured.  I just got an entire '78 top end when i saw one for $20 on ebay and am still waiting for it to need the rocker covers.  maybe o-rings would be easier?

read the forum.
search for one thing, but read everything else you can find.  do not post pictures of yourself and ask us if you are attractive.  do post pics of your bike and your progress.
welcome
-KK

[750goes]

take off the valve caps and pour a bit of oil in there over each valve, try and get a bit on the camshaft as well- it may save some really noisy engine scrapings when you get it started and decide to give it a rev..

if the motor will start (and it will), let it idle for a few minutes just to circulate oil around the engine....don't worry if it sounds rough...its probably filthy carbs and gummed/crudded up jets and passages...which will clear with cleaning and running.....but mainly from cleaning...

pull the plugs and force your finger/thumb over the plug holes when turning it over...if your finger/thumb is forced off you have enough compression - is your finger thumb wet - you have fuel (fingers crossed)- now just check each spark plug for spark when attached to the plug lead and held against the motor - get spark? - if so you are looking good to go...

keep us posted

[OldSchool_IsCool]

- the brakes suck
- don't let fuel leaks go unattended, especially above the engine (don't ask how I know  )
- pull the plug caps off the plug wires.  If there is any green in there, shine up the spike in the cap and trim the wire back to clean copper.  Don't cut too short tho!!
- Double check that you have the right plugs.  Your caps have resistance, your plugs shouldn't.
- 15-amp fuses --- don't leave home without some!
- a bad fuse can "look" good.  If you suspect it, replace it.
- watch your tire pressure close
- you have a "wet" sump and "wet" clutch (i.e motor oil rests in the bottom of your engine and is supposed to be in the clutch)
- oil level is measured with the dip stick set in the hole, not screwed down
- Chain lube that doesn't fling off the chain and onto your pants hasn't been invented yet
- Old School is COOL! (heard that somewhere)
- exhaust megaphones are WAY over priced!
- SeaFoam is awsome! (pause while those that disagree roll their eyes)
- death, taxes, and SOHC/4 oil leaks
- OEM gaskets are the only way to go (yes, Honda still makes them)
- for better battery charging, run your engine at or above 3000 RPM
- HondaMan and TwoTired are God's!  Glad to have them as members here as well as the rest of the clan!
- Crotch rockets hurt my back just looking at them
- downshift, throttle, bubye!
- Cagers are not to be trusted
- A helmet and a leather jacket are instant cool!
- Any distraction (radio, iPod, cell phone, beautiful girl) can mean death on these machines.
- Only a motorcyclist knows why a dog loves to stick it's head out a car window
- forget about wheelies, front or back
- High side, low side, super man --- I'd rather avoid the crash all together.  (your safety class will explain this)
- the rear wheel adjustment notches aren't accurate.  Measure from rim to swing arm on both sides to align the rear wheel
- don't expect three-digit milage.  These bikes weren't built for fuel efficiency.  Anything above 40 is great!
- the speedometer will read about 5 MPH over your actual speed
- wiring, especially the connectors, need TLC
- don't let moisture get into your points!! if the gasket is bad, a little high-temp grease will get you back on the road while you wait for the replacement.
- if you have the under-seat tool kit, don't leave it on the shop bench when you ride!
- keep the greasy side down and the leathery side up!
- no matter how long you have ridden, you are never fully prepared
- know your limits and the limits of your machine, respect them both!
- reasonable engine breaking (downshifting) is not going to hurt anything.  With as bad as these brakes are, practice it.
- your front brake is 80% of your braking power

[scunny]

old school forgot to mention the snarl turning into a scream as the sohc learns to breathe again, enjoy your efforts

[KB02]

I would say change the oil & filter and drop in some new plugs. I ralize that you don't want to spend too much money untill you know if you have a runner or not, but they're really not that expensive and even if it doesn't run (Which is going to be highly unlikley now that you have a knowkedge base like these forums to pull from) you really havn't lost much money. Plus, when it does run, the new oil will help clean out some of the old oil that has coagulated (sp?) in the spots that don't drain very well.

Good luck! Keep us posted

[Tvag]

The wife called and my Clymers Manual came in today. FINALLY! Going to get new sparks and change the oil tonight. Will use all your suggestions and give her a go this weekend. I'll spend all Saturday working on her. This forum is great. Thanks for the support. Wish me luck!

[Stevien1]

As already mentioned, change the oil/filter, fresh gas, and fresh spark plugs.  Before installing the spark plugs, squirt some oil in each spark plug hole and turn the engine over once by hand.  With oil on the rings, it'll build more compression and hopefully start!

When my 550 sits for a while it won't even sputter untill oil gets up to the rings (yeah it's a little "loose"!) 

[Tvag]

Only got a couple minutes last night to work on the bike. Took the spark plugs out to see how they were firing. Plugs 3 and 4 were firing (four had the only nice fat blue spark), but plugs 1 and 2 did not fire at all. I ran out of time and was NOT able to swap right plugs with the left plugs to test if it's the plugs that are faulty. But it doesn't look like it's going to be the plugs that are the problem here. I'll swap them out tonight and be sure. So basically right now, only the right side plugs are firing and the left side is not. Anyone seen something like this before?

[csendker]

Hmmmm, your ignition system is a dual point setup with the cylinders 1/4 & 2/3.  Typically if you have 2 dead plugs it's more likely to be in the ignition system than hitting the dead-plug jackpot, but your dead cylinders don't quite match up.  Maybe the wires are swapped wrong?  Maybe dead plugs if they're old?  You should have 2 coils, 2 ignition wires, 2 points, 2 condensers (all of these split into 1/4 & 2/3) and 4 spark plug wires and 4 spark plugs.  Considering the dead plugs don't match the proper cylinder sequence, I'd start at the plugs and work back: check the plugs, spark plug wires & caps (resistors?) check your points & condensers, ignition wires & coils.  The FAQ's have a bunch of info on testing the components.

[Tvag]

Maybe the wires are swapped wrong?  Maybe dead plugs if they're old?  You should have 2 coils, 2 ignition wires, 2 points, 2 condensers (all of these split into 1/4 & 2/3) and 4 spark plug wires and 4 spark plugs.

Well, tonight I'll know if it's the spark plugs or not (I'm couting on it not being that simple but they are 20 years old). The wires are correct. They are labeled with 3 and 4 firing at they're correct separate intervals. I'll try the functioning 3 and 4 plugs in the 1 and 2 female ends tonight to test. What a break that would be if plugs 1 and 2 were simply broken!

[Klark Kent]

remember to clean the plug cap contacts (or replace the caps) and cut a couple mm off the wires to expose good copper.
good luck
-KK

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Well, tonight I'll know if it's the spark plugs or not (I'm couting on it not being that simple but they are 20 years old). The wires are correct. They are labeled with 3 and 4 firing at they're correct separate intervals. I'll try the functioning 3 and 4 plugs in the 1 and 2 female ends tonight to test. What a break that would be if plugs 1 and 2 were simply broken!

If 3 and 4 are indeed firing opposite of each other then they are definitely operating off different coils/points/condensers.  This is good, VERY good!  The failed sparking on 1 and 2 is down to:
- bad plugs
- bad caps
- bad plug wire to coil
- corroded cap-to-wire connection
- poor cap-to-plug connection
- didn't ground the plug well enough when testing

If I were to put $$ on it, I would bet Klark's advice (plus 4 new - NGK D7EA plugs I believe) will give you 4 fat sparks.

[Tvag]

New spark plugs did the trick. The left side plugs were damaged and not firing. I squirted some oil in the holes and installed them. Changed the oil too. I spent 2 hours preping the bike and then spent the next 3 hours putting it through the most brutal, gut wrenching, and exhaustive starting session seen on this earth!

I abused this bike to no end to get it to start. Everything I could think of I did. Choke in, choke out, full throddle, 1/4 throddle, no throddle, kickstart, starter, kickstart again, full throddle, starter fluid, starter fluid, MORE STARTER FLUID!! I talked dirty to her, I bribed her, I even wispered sweet nothings in her gas tank. But to no avail. She would not run.

Best results using the starting fluid got her up with the throddle on but she wouldn't continue. So I found that very positive. I'm confident she will run if.... if... she gets a carb cleaning. I know it had to be done but I just wanted to see if she could run before I pulled out those carbs and took a baseball bat to them. That's how you clean them right? Hit them repeatedly with a baseball bat, throw them out a second story window, and then dip them in battery acid?

Let me ask you, how much would it cost me to bring the carbs down to a honda dealer to service? I've got no mechanical experience at all, can I really clean these on my own? Is it simply a matter of meticulous time consuming cleaning and keeping the parts in order? I can do that if that's the case.

Anyone have a favorite carb cleaning solution for thier CB's?

Thanks again for the help you've given me. Through me you've saved a bike destined for the junk yard. She'll be revived.

[kuyarico]

I found this link to be very helpful the first time I cleaned my carbs: http://www.salocal.com/sohc/tech/carb/carb.htm
Also, the Carb FAQ has a bunch of info regarding the process and recommended cleaners.


I'd say, try it yourself. It's a right of passage.    It will be much more gratifying once you get that thing purring like a sexy kitten. And you'll know how to do it the next time. Oh, and Honda dealers will make you bend over and spread your cheeks.

[lrutt]

I'd be willing to bet you won't find a Honda dealer that will touch them. All dealers seem to say they won't work on anything over 10 years old.

You should be able to find an independent though that will help out.

[Klark Kent]

it costs $2, 000 at the dealer.
really?
no
but whatever it takes for you to do it yourself.
we were all reluctant to do it, and i have yet to see someone post that they regret doing it.  
what i did was read about it, (that salocal link helped a lot) and keep reading about it, probably much longer than i needed to until i felt comfoortable taking the carbs off.  
once i did it once though, i couldnt stop.  i took em off again to change the o rings and then again to try and get a better bench synch.  and i loved it each time.  i felt a mastery over something that had previousy mystified me.  that $hit was pricessless.  so forget the dealer and look in the mirror- there's your carb expert....

just spend the rest of the workday reading about your carbs.

good luck
-KK

[kuyarico]

I'd be willing to bet you won't find a Honda dealer that will touch them. All dealers seem to say they won't work on anything over 10 years old.

You should be able to find an independent though that will help out.

Surprisingly, my local Honda dealer will work on vintage bikes and has been able to order just about everything that I've inquired about. But I prefer to give it a go myself before going to them for service. I haven't had to go to them yet with either of my bikes.

Oh and KK is right. Working on carbs and bikes in general is addicting. (love/hate sometimes) Once you've figured out how and why something works, you'll be a better rider for it.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Wooo Hooo!! Glad to hear you got her to pop!  Running would have been a miracle after 20 years of neglect.  Yes, this bike will definitely see the road again.  Please keep us up to date on your progress, we've all been there to some degree and are more then egar to help you keep this bike out of the scrap heap!

I echo the notion that working on these old bikes is addictive.  I've been amazed at how far I have come in the last 18 months.  You're starting a bit further back then I (I got my bike free and non-running too, but it was an electrical issue and had only sat one year).

Welcome to the community of the bitten!

[medic09]

NOW the fun begins...

Keep us posted!