Topic: Starting a rusty '77 CB550K

[Tvag]

Thanks Bob,

I decided to forgo the battery and just hooked the bike upto my car to static time the bike. Everything checked out and I didn't have make any adjustments other than set the point gap. So, I'll try to use an ancient Mercury Manometer from Motion Pro to sync the carbs. I don't know how to go about this. Do I hook up the manometer before i start the engine or after? I read the instructions that came with it but they are unclear. Here's what I think I'm going to do.

-I'll start the bike up (2nd time ever) and try to get it to idle around 1000 rpms.
-After it's warmed up to running temp, I'll turn off the bike, hook up the adapters and manometer with the tube in the rear set to "closed"
- I'll then start the bike again, try to get an idle around 1000 Rpms and open the manometer making my adjustments to the carbs to get them to even out.

Does this sound like a plan? Can anyone point me to a thread that could help me out?

Tvag

[Tvag]

Found the following site to help assist with the carb sync. http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/carb_synk.htm

I'm not really sure what I'm doing but I hope I don't learn the hard way not to do something a certain way. We'll see.

By the way, I have developed a new skill thanks to this bike rebuild... hazmat cleanup. Yeah, so I was coming up the stairs with my Motion Pro mercury carb sync tool and as I reach the top step I trip. Well, the tube that attaches to the mercury resevoir popped open upon impact and dished out some mercury. Yeah... luckily for me it was only about 5 or 6 drops that shook out. I spent 3 hours rolling the little mercury balls together. They'd meld and meld again until I had this excellent mercury ball. 3 hours folks. I had a lamp in one hand and a saftey pin in the other just scanning and scanning the floor. Pushing little balls of liquid metal together. And when I say LITTLE I'm talking miniscule. I'm saying like, I was looking for specks about the size of half of the period at the end of this sentence. I doubt i got them all but I got probably 95% of what was possible. I was literally discerning dust from liquid metal. Luckily for me when mercury is spilt it always takes the shape of a perfect sphere. If I wasn't so concerned about mercury poisoning for me or my wife I would have found the procedure pretty cool. But it was disconcerning and when my wife came home from work she had a fit... fumes this, and birth defects that. I tried to explain to here that yes... mercury is bad but I had taken care of the problem and whatever may remain was so miniscule it wouldn't be too bad. Plus I washed the floor down thoroughly and threw out everything... even my cloths. Women...

Talk to you.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Maybe I'm Old School (oh wait! I am OldSchool!!), but in my late 70's high school chemistry class, we playing with mercury pretty quite often, never affected us a bit!!

Now, if you are a haberdasher or a alchemist handling the stuff daily, then yea! time to worry.  but casual exposure like your spill, hell, ya prolly ingest more with a salmon dinner at Red Lobster.

If ya spill any plutonium tho, you will wanna get all that cleaned up.

[jensk]

Hi Tvag.
Don't worry to much about the metallic mercury. Even though mercury is poisonous it is mostly so when it is bound into a organic compound then it is seriously dangerous. When in metal state as the mercury you spilled it is if not harmless not very toxic.

This not said to make all you out there that are using the old mercury based carb synch'ers keep on using them. Mercury should be handled with great care and when your Mercury carb syncher is worn out or brooken it should be disposed as highly toxic waste. This is due to the fact that when mercury gets into the environment a certains amount of it is digested by difference organic organisms and converted into organic bound mercury and then it is really toxic. This is the reason for trying to avoid mercury all together.

I bought my professional manometer based carb syncher on Ebay for 12£. No mercury to spill and when it once is worm out I just dump it in the wastebin. As long as we keep on buying mercury based tools we keep getting more and more mercury into the environment thus poluting our surroundings with a highly toxic compound.

Regarding your battery the fault may be due to the battery being on the latest of its usable life. The capacity o such a battery suddently degrades very fast to a level where there is allmost no capacity left. In this state even the smallest load will allmost empty the charge. When the battery is put back into the carger it will be empty and the charges starts a charging phase as if it was a normal decharged battery. Since everything workes normally when using the car battery this could be the case.
/jensk

[Tvag]

thanks for the info guys. I put the air filter back together and plan on trying to start the bike this weekend and sync it... This will only be the second time I've attempted starting it. The 1 & 2 sparks plugs ran hot. The 3 & 4 plugs ran cold and were black. I swaped sides so that they don't foul on this second start. If you don't recall, the first time I ran the bike I flash touched the pipes afterward and the #3 pipe was cold. I was hoping it was a vacuum issue but repulled the carbs and re-cleaned all the jets. So... here goes nothing.

Also, going to the Pats v Jags game tomorrow. Never been to playoff football before. Should be rediculous. Talk to you.

tvag

[Tvag]

Alright!! Lots of news, some good, some bad. Here we go...

Attempted a carb sync yesterday. The bike started on about the 4th kick and was idleing much better than I remember last time. However, it would rev on it's own periodically with no intervention from me. I hooked up the carb sync unit and was pleasantly surprized to find that all 4 carbs had reading that were within a centimeter of eachother. As I was working on the bike from time to time the idle would falter and the engine would die. It would take me a minute or two to start it up again. After reading some posts here about keeping a fan running over the engine I'm thinking that maybe it was overheating, not sure. I don't know enough about mechanics to be sure. I'm going to do it over again tomorrow because it kicked out for a 3rd time when I was working on the last carb and I couldn't get it restarted easily enough to warrent finishing the job so... 

I have some bad news though. I flash touched all the pipes to see if all the cylindars were firing and I discovered that #3 is still not firing. It may still have less of a vacuum so I'm hoping thats the problem but like I said, all the readings were very close. I'll take a pic of the readings tomorrow to show you what I'm seeing. But I know #3 has spark and compression. I pulled the carbs a couple months ago and made sure all of #3 was clean and clear, jets and all. So... I'm still wondering why it isn't firing. Hopefully tomorrow after the second attempt at a sync It'll be fine. Wish me luck.

This was the second time I ran the bike and it sounded and looked much better than last time. 

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Since #2 is firing, the the timing should be fine.  Try swapping the #3 plug with #4.  The plug cap too.  Check for any crud inside the cap and trim the wire a little (very little) to clean copper.  See if the problem follows the plug or stays on #3.

Have you checked compression?  Since #3 is pulling a strong vacuum, it's probably OK. 

Is your exhaust a 4 into 4?  If yes, sniff the #3 muffler for heavy gas smell.  If #3 is cold and you don't smell gas, then concentrate on fuel issues.  Try draining #3 float bowl into a clean clear jar.  Do you get gas?  Is it clean?  Any water in it?

All you need for #3 to fire is the right fuel/air mixture, good compression and a strong spark delivered at the right time.  That's all!

[Tvag]

Thanks old school,

I was lucky enough to catch a snow day here and so was able to put some more time into the bike. I think I have successfully synchornized the carbs. Well, as close as an amiture like me can get anyhow. #3 appears to be firing along with the rest now. The pipe is definitely hot as compared to before but I'm not sure if it is as hot as the other 3 pipes. Another look tomorrow will let me know.

I worked on her all morning and was pleased to have here idleing well this afternoon. When reving all 4 jump up fairly equally. I think my tappets might need a tightening though. I can here a clatter but then again, I'm not sure what suppose to sound right.

I noticed that not only is my speedo gauge not working but neither is my RPM gauge. I know I need a new cable for the speedo, but I'm now guessing a new cables for the RPMs? Small problem.

I think I need to work on the idle mixture screws. Once warmed up the bike will idle pretty well but from time to time will start to sputter unless I pull the choke up or fiddle with the idle adjustment screw. Then the bike will rev. Also, the bike tends to rev no its own from time to time. At the moment the idle mixture screws are 2 turns out. I think I'll bring them in a 1/2 turn and see if there is any improvement.


Thanks for the help,



Tvag

[Tvag]

Can anyone give me feedback on the video I linked to the last post? Does the link work? Does the bike sound at all odd to anyone? Do the guages look good or does someone see some improvements I can make to synchronizing the carbs?

Honestly, I'm using a Mac and I'm not getting the video so let me know if it's not working.

[edbikerii]

Can anyone give me feedback on the video I linked to the last post? Does the link work? Does the bike sound at all odd to anyone? Do the guages look good or does someone see some improvements I can make to synchronizing the carbs?

Honestly, I'm using a Mac and I'm not getting the video so let me know if it's not working.

I can't see the video either.

[Tvag]

Alright, I must have screwed up. Thanks!

Tvag

[WJL75]

Yeah, the video is not playing.  Glad to read that it fires up for you though.  I know you have been working on it for a while.  Keep up the good work.  Riding season is just around the corner.

[Tvag]

Ok... Ok... had some time and figured out how to embed my pitiful video. Answer me 2 questions.

1. From what you can make out from the crappy audio, does anything sound off?

2. Are these carbs in your opinion synchronized:  very well | well | not well | aweful


[youtube=425,350]O6HkG8LnehE[/youtube]

[TwoTired]

I think the vacuum sync is okay, though I couldn't the #4 mercury level very well.  I would expect the levels to be more steady and not gradually surge (average) up and down en masse.   Was the RPM surging, too?

Was the bike warm when you made the video?  Are all the pipes now the same temp?

Did you isolate the trans/primary chain/clutch basket rattle by pulling in the clutch and listening for a change in noise?

Have you set the cam chain tension, yet?

Did you adjust the valves while the engine was cold?  To what clearance?

It sounds like a Honda cb550 that hasn't run for a long while.   They run rough if they sit for week.  Then run smoother as miles pile up.

Cheers,

[Tvag]

I think the vacuum sync is okay, though I couldn't the #4 mercury level very well.  I would expect the levels to be more steady and not gradually surge (average) up and down en masse.   Was the RPM surging, too?   
Not sure about the RPMS. The guage seemed sluggish at best and I'm not sure if that's the bike or that's how the guage is suppose to work. But it was reving on it's own from time to time.

Was the bike warm when you made the video?  Are all the pipes now the same temp?
The bike was warm when made the video. I am not positive if all the pipes were same temp but believe they were. If not, #3 was the one not firing at first.

Did you isolate the trans/primary chain/clutch basket rattle by pulling in the clutch and listening for a change in noise?
I did not know about this but will try it with the next go this weekend. What am I listening for?

Have you set the cam chain tension, yet?
This was done successfully, to my knowledge.

Did you adjust the valves while the engine was cold?  To what clearance?
Yes and to the recommended clearances. .002 front / .003 rear tappets, if I remember correctly.

It sounds like a Honda cb550 that hasn't run for a long while. Grin  They run rough if they sit for week.  Then run smoother as miles pile up.
Lets hope so. Thanks TT. I'm going to make another go of it this weekend I hope. I feel like I can get 3 and 4 a bit closer. Should I try or hope the bike levels out on it's own as it runs?

On a side note. I'm thinking my brake problem might be some minor pits in the piston. Is it possible/safe to put the piston in backwards into the caliper?

Cheers,

[TwoTired]

Q: Did you isolate the trans/primary chain/clutch basket rattle by pulling in the clutch and listening for a change in noise?
A: I did not know about this but will try it with the next go this weekend. What am I listening for?

Um... You are listening for a change in the noise...

Is it possible/safe to put the piston in backwards into the caliper?

It is possible.  Not recommended.  The piston is hollow, with a cap/insert at one end that faces away from the brake fluid.

Cheers

[Tvag]

Q: Did you isolate the trans/primary chain/clutch basket rattle by pulling in the clutch and listening for a change in noise?
A: I did not know about this but will try it with the next go this weekend. What am I listening for?

Um... You are listening for a change in the noise...

Is it possible/safe to put the piston in backwards into the caliper?

It is possible.  Not recommended.  The piston is hollow, with a cap/insert at one end that faces away from the brake fluid.

Ok, rephrase: What will a change or not change in noise tell me when i pull the clutch? Why would I do it?

And regarding the piston... I'm going to flip the piston to see if the brakes function again if I do that. I've done a lot of trouble shooting and I believe that is where the problem lies. This could verify my suspicions.

Along those lines, I remember reading a post about getting a rubber replacement piston for the caliper. Are they still available, are they any good, and anyone know where to get one?

Thanks again TT.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Did you adjust the valves while the engine was cold?  To what clearance?
Yes and to the recommended clearances. .002 front / .003 rear tappets, if I remember correctly.

Should be .002 intake (tappets towards the rear, by the carbs) and .003 exhaust (tappets to the front, over the header pipes).

[Tvag]

Did you adjust the valves while the engine was cold?  To what clearance?
Yes and to the recommended clearances. .002 front / .003 rear tappets, if I remember correctly.

Should be .002 intake (tappets towards the rear, by the carbs) and .003 exhaust (tappets to the front, over the header pipes).

See! That's where my disclaimer "if I remember correctly" comes into play. I did the tappets a while ago and when I do anything I double and triple check myself. So, I'm confident I put them at the right clearances even if I can't remember. : )  ... but of course now I will check again!! : )

[TwoTired]

Ok, rephrase: What will a change or not change in noise tell me when i pull the clutch? Why would I do it?

Some noises, like I mentioned in a previous post, will go away.  If the ones that annoy you do that, then grin.

There is a fair bit of mechanical stuff going on inside.  It's not going to be quiet and still move your carcass around.  Wind noise should be louder, though...when you get around to that.

And regarding the piston... I'm going to flip the piston to see if the brakes function again if I do that. I've done a lot of trouble shooting and I believe that is where the problem lies. This could verify my suspicions.

Seems unlikely, if you have it installed the right way now. 

Along those lines, I remember reading a post about getting a rubber replacement piston for the caliper. Are they still available, are they any good, and anyone know where to get one?

PM kevin400F.  I think he still sells Phenolic brake pistons.

Cheers,

Cheers,

[anparkinson]

My 77 550K3 had sat for 14 years.

I changed the oil and filter, spun the engine over without the plugs to get oil pressure, new plugs and points then fired it up.

It ran like a pig but proved the engine was OK.

When I stripped down the carbs I found the idle jets were partially blocked with a white deposit from the fuel that had been in there 14 years. I took all jets out and reamed them out with model maker's drills back to their original sizes (0.4mm for the idles if I recall)

It runs perfectly now and has loads of grunt.

Good luck

[Tvag]

Ok, started her again tonight. It was cold out there and took a few kicks to get it up and running, but eventually it did. I forgot to test if noise reduced with the clutch in. Will do next time.

I was curious to see how well my carb sync went. I was disappointed. Upon startup 1 and 2 cylinders were firing and there pipes were very warm. 3 and 4 were not. After 10 min I killed the engine and flash touched the pipes. 1, 2, and 4 were hot (so four caught up eventually) but 3 was still barely warm. A good deal of exhaust was coming from 1 and 2 pipes only. I don't get it... It seemed to be running well last time and now it seems to reverted to how it was. I should sync again I guess? 

As for the brakes. I reinstalled the brakes. I couldn't reverse the piston in the caliper afterall. So I cleaned out any (and there is very little) pitting on the surface of the piston. I then filled those pits with JB Weld and sanded them down till it was nice and perfectly smooth again. When all was said and done... no difference. The pads still rub against the disk and the handle won't firm up. I guess for now I'll live with it until I think the bike is truely ridable. Then I'll readdress. But for now... they will stop the bike even if the pad is rubbing annoyingly. 

-- Lastly, I'm trying to also repair the Kaw z400 I broke. The kickstarter isn't functioning. The spring stopped having tension and returning the petal. So I went inside the right engine cover expecting to see a broken spring... nope. Spring works fine it just has no tension and there is no stop to keep the spring from unwinding all the way. I'm not sure how the mechanism is suppose to work but I ruined a perfectly good gasket I think.

Bad bike day. 

[TwoTired]

I was curious to see how well my carb sync went. I was disappointed. Upon startup 1 and 2 cylinders were firing and there pipes were very warm. 3 and 4 were not. After 10 min I killed the engine and flash touched the pipes. 1, 2, and 4 were hot (so four caught up eventually) but 3 was still barely warm. A good deal of exhaust was coming from 1 and 2 pipes only. I don't get it... It seemed to be running well last time and now it seems to reverted to how it was. I should sync again I guess? 

This is a typical symptom of the slow circuit not functioning in the carb, due to foreign matter blockage..  I doubt sync is going to help that.

Cheers,

[Tvag]

You know, you think your getting close and then...

Well, started her up again until warm and hooked up the carb synchronizer. Once warm the carbs appeared in synch. When i rev 3 jumps above the rest with 2 behind it and 1 and 4. But not that extreem. I'm fairly pleased with the sync. The weather was in the 40's and the bike seemed to run noticably better.

BUT... 3 was not firing at all. Cold pipe. So I switched the plugs on 3 and 4. No change, still not firing. Before I could switch the caps between 2 and 3 to see if it was a faulty cap, I smell gas. Well, turns out the #2 carb overflow tube was draining. Greaaaat. I killed it and tapped on the float bowl. It stopped. So... the float in #2 is sticking again. Awesome. I'm really bummed out.

Also, #4 was backfiring throughout periodically.

So... what to do about #3 not firing? I think I'll start her up once more to see if switching the caps makes a difference, but after that what are my options?

P.S. What do I do with the idle mixture screws? Are they vital to what I'm doing right now? I set them 2 turns out and haven't touched them since.

[TwoTired]

#3 not working.  You need fuel, compression, and spark.   What is missing?
Remove spark plug, lay plug body on engine and look for spark (across the gap, not just near it).
Assuming it sparks....
Turn on kill switch to prevent engine from firing.
Apply full choke with the fuel petcock on.
Crank engine through ten-twenty revolutions.  Pull #3 spark plug again.  Does it smell of gas?  Does #4 plug?
If #4 is wet with gas and #3 is dry, your carb is not providing fuel.  (Or, you have intake valve issues that a compression check should identify.)

#2 overflow.  Unless you still have a fuel contamination issue.  Sticky floats may go away with some regular operation.

#4 backfiring. (Was this at idle?)  Lean mixture, or exhaust header leak and rich mixture.

Mixture screws -  Set these after all cylinders are firing.  For now, they should be good.

Let us know...