Topic: Starting a rusty '77 CB550K

[Tvag]

Well, one major victory was recorded last night at 9:10pm EST. The carbs are holding fuel, no leaks. Yeah, I got gas everywhere except in the carbs at first but finally I got the contraption to function. The carbs are now completely reassembled (no extra parts  ) and ready to be put back on the bike. I find it difficult to be patient and grow very anxious to put them back on and try to start the bike. I will say this, I've never though of myself as mechanically inclined, but I'm having the best time working on this old rusty dusty heap of a bike. My wife hasn't seen me for 2 weeks as I've been in the basement or in the garage with any spare minute I can find. I asked her if I could wheel the bike into the family room where its warm to reinstall the carbs... sorry I asked !!

I'll keep you posted on more progress and maybe a couple pics of the reinstall if anyone cares. Hoping to try to get her to start by this coming weekend.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Yes!! keep us up to date.  And you only THOUGHT your wife said NO to bringing the bike inside.  GO FOR IT!   

[dagersh]

Keep us up to date Tvag!!!!

Gersh

[Tvag]

WHAT A NIGHT!! To preface this post, my wife told me she had NEVER seen me as happy as I was last night in the 9 years she’s known me.

So, I finish some trim work upstairs in the family room, which I’ve been putting off forever. The idea being I can work on my bike without the missus saying I’m not ‘contributing.’ As soon as it’s done I run down to the basement, grab my newly clean carbs and shoot out the door to my garage. FINALLY, I can put them back in! Three weeks of intensive meticulous labor is about to pay off! It went surprisingly smoother than expected as the rubber boots were not as frigid as I thought they would be. So the carbs went back in easy (easy for carbs that is). I hooked up all the cables and hoses and damn she looked good to be complete again, even if she is all rusty. I finished putting her back together around 10pm. Of course, now I’m anxious to see if I can get her to purr.  Wife is still painting the upstairs bedroom at this time so I figure… I have a few minutes before bed; let me try to start her again. So I put together a makeshift (and leaky) reservoir for the gas and hook up some fuel line. As I’m filling the carbs I hear the sound of liquid hitting concrete. YUP! You guessed it, the overflow hose on the #2 is gushing gas. I’m pist off! I KNOW these carbs hold gas! I TESTED them yesterday! Defeated  , I decide I might as well get them back out tonight while I’m out here in the cold, but before I do I check all the drain screws… TO MY OVERWHELMING DELIGHT I notice the #2 screw had NOT been tightened!! Thank the MAKER ! I screw it in and start pouring gas. Carbs are full, so I detach my (leaky) reservoir. Hook up the jumper cables, ignition on, switch her over to run, choke out and kick her over slowly enough times to toggle the oil light. The starter sounds sluggish and after one attempt I decide I’d rather not burn it out. So I start kicking to high hell. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’ve never kick started a bike in my life… but it feels right enough. It’s COLD so I’m not discouraged after the first 10 attempts when I see no sign of ignition. I open the throttle up FULL give her one solid kick…. RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM –  She’s ALIVE and she’s ANGRY!! Startled, delighted and giddy I let go of the throttle and she cuts out. Open the throttle full again, kick and sure enough RRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMM she’s UP! Trying to ease the throttle out slower this time she still cuts out. Not to worry!! She’s showing signs of life. I start to adjust the stop screw on the carbs and see if I can get her to idle. 3 or four more times I get her up and each time I hold the throttle open a little longer easing her out trying to get her to idle. Suddenly, to my amazement the garage door flies open and my wife comes running out. “What the hell is that NOISE? Did it START?” Well, I don’t think I’ve ever had a bigger, stupider grin on my face in my life. Anyhow, before I could get her to idle the carbs were out of gas. Not to worry… tonight I’ll hook up the tank proper, put some gas in, and see if I can get her to idle. Didn’t get a lick of sleep last night I was so pumped. Small price to pay.

I flash touched all the exhaust pipes and all were hot (hotter than I imagined! Ouch!). What should my next step be after she idles? She won’t be rust free by spring but she can be in riding condition by then. Front brakes are seized up so I guess that’s where I should go next. Chain is very rusty, need to check the sprockets, new tires. What would you move onto next? This bike needs it all.

And, I want to thank everyone for your help. I couldn't’t have done it without this forum. I don’t think I’ve been this proud of something in 10 years!! Can’t wait to RIDE her!! All my gratitude.

[medic09]

Cool.   

And now, the wife's a believer.  Always gotta be careful about pushing wary converts too fast; but I'd try to get the bike in the dining room now...   

[DammitDan]

Congratulations! 

I remember the first time I got that to happen after a top end and carb rebuild...  Everyone said, "Dan you should just give up, you're never gonna get her back together AND running..."  Oh boy, the basement was filled with exhaust fumes that night! 

I know exactly the feeling to accomplishment and elation that you felt last night, my friend.

My only suggestion is, get the brakes fixed as the very next step.  You'd be amazed what you'll leave out just to test ride her...  It's better to have the safety stuff out of the way before you get too excited about riding!

[kuyarico]

Tvag, congrats! I know the feeling. I know that when I am in the midst of trying to figure something out, part of my brain keeps working on it whether I'm at work or sleeping. Anyways, did you change your oil yet? Now that you know she runs, I would get some fresh oil in her. After the brakes, I would address the chain and sprockets. I nor most of the fellas here wouldn't trust a rusty chain. I would take a good look at the tires next. Look for rotting and cracking. The rubber has most likely degraded and hardened, making them no longer safe. Look into new tires. Inspect your front forks for leaks. It's probably a good idea to change the fork oil. After that, I would do a cam chain adjustment, valve tappet adjustment, points adjustment, timing, and carb balance. Those are some of the things that I would look at in the near future, if you plan on working on and riding it. Consider picking up a Clymer manual for your bike. There is a lot of useful info in there. Good luck man. Keep posting.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Woooooo Hooooo!! AWESOME!!!! 

- clean tank
- add in-line fuel filter
- tune, tune, tune (see TTs post below)
- front brakes
- back brakes
- tires
- check wheel bearings
- check swing arm bushings
- chain & sprockets
- fork oil
- M/C safety course
- RIDE!
- make her pretty

*edit for order, human nature is guna wana get her purring first!*

[TwoTired]

I still get a thrill from bringing dead machines back to life.  Warning, it can be addictive.  Note my sig.

Now that you know it will run, do the rest in a methodical fashion.  Or, you will be doing the same work twice.
Don't bother fine tuning carbs until ALL the tune up items are performed.  Carbs are the last things to fine tune.
Points, timing, spark plugs, cam chain tension, valve tappet adjust, new, clean air filter, new oil and filter.  Make sure you don't feed the nice clean carbs with crusty fuel from a dirty, rusty, gas tank.  Vacuum balance the carbs.  Set idle mixture screws.

Get a battery. Check charging system.

Repair front brake.

Chain/ sprockets

Tires

Smile and bask in the admiration of those you care about. 
Not everyone is capable of performing a resurection.   

Well done!

[dagersh]

Bravo TVAG!!!

[medic09]

Well Done!

It's getting pretty cool, isn't it? 

[Klark Kent]

its always precious when they start talking.
congrats
-KK

[Tvag]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. Yeah, it feels really good. Especially since I got her to hold an idle last night! It was wild and irregular and I had to play a lot with the stop screw but eventually she stayed running. Had to keep the choke out most the time and keep her at higher RPM's but hell, she ran. Here are some worrysome observations from the burn though:

- I noticed there was more fine rusting inside the gas tank than originally thought so I didn't use the tank.
- Discovered LOTS of fine rust particles on the floor afterward (rust from inside the pipes?)
- #3 exhaust was cooler than the rest of the pipes
- smoke was seeping from the right side of the engine between #3 and #4 cylinders
- #3 exhaust was making 'popping' sounds

Something is up with the #3 cylinder - What do these symptoms suggests? I guess I'll have to go into the engine...

[TwoTired]

Compare the combustion deposits on all the spark plugs.

A cold pipe and poor idle are indicitive of an idle circuit in a carb that is not clear.  The idle circuits dominate the mixture at idle and also have the smallest metering orifices that are easily restricted. The main and needle jets supply fuel at more open throttle positions which is why your pipes get hot when the engine is revving higher.

Are you absolutely, positively, no mistake certain that the carb insides are squeaky clean?  It only takes particle sizes as small as 0.016 inch to block the idle jets.

Wouldn't hurt to do a valve adjustment first.  And, a compression check can restore (or dash) you hopes for cylinder integrity.  But, it seems likely that #3 carb isn't quite clean enough yet.

Cheers,

Cheers,

[Tvag]

And, a compression check can restore (or dash) you hopes for cylinder integrity.  But, it seems likely that #3 carb isn't quite clean enough yet.

When I first started her up I could hear a 'wheezing' from the right side of the engine like there was liquid and air escaping a small hole. Then I noticed the smoke coming from that part of the engine later... still sound like a #3 carb issue? Hey, I don't know anything... just trying to give all the info I can. If you say recheck the carbs I'll recheck them... but the noise and the smoke from #3 and #4 compartment seemed odd to me... if a carb problem can cause that, I'll pull em back out in a flash.


T

[TwoTired]

Can you post a pic of that "small hole" to which you refer?  There is a crankcase breather tube fitting between 3&4.

At least pull the spark plugs and read the story they tell.

Cheers,

[hcritz]

Hey Tvag:
Great that you got her running...
Now I would go back and do the regular tuneup things...Cam chain...valve adjustment... points...timing...etc.
When I first got mine...I had some popping out the pipes...did the normal tuneup things and synced the carbs and all was well with the world. If you can do the cabs...then the rest of this will be easy. There are lost of post on all of the above...and even the downloadable owner's manual tell you how to do these things...
I'll bet she'll run like a champ when you get that all sorted out.
Make sure you get a fuel filter so you don't clog your freshly cleaned carbs!!!
Also...I'd replace the fuel line...when they get old you might get some debris from the inside of the line..seen a lot of that inside carbs!

[csendker]

And when you do pull those plugs, look here --> http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=5752.msg6138#msg6138 to understand what they are trying to tell you.

[TwoTired]

or here for plug reading:
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

[jensk]

Hi Tvag.
If I where you I would persue the wheesing sound before anything else. You describe it as liquid and air comming out of a small hole. The are a couple of possibilities. I would start by the following checks
- Check that carb 3 (and maybe carb 4) are fitted completely to the cylinder. Ads i remenber you had the headers of the cylinder when dismantlige the carbs. Did you get new gaskets when you remounted the headers to the cylinder.
- Check that there is spark on cylinder 3 - if not you at least have the why the #3 exhaust is cold
- Have you checked that the float in carb #3 are the right way in. You can check this by mounting a piece of clear fueltube on the overflow under the floathouse. Route it upwards along the floathouse/carb. Open the drain screw under the floathouse and se if there is fuel ind the floathouse - the level in the clear fueltube should equal the level in the carb floathouse.

If you suspect the wheesing sound comes from air escaping the engine somewhere you can check this by using the method with athletic powder. This metiod is described in this posting:
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=17132.0

The wheesing sound could be from a leaking head to exhaust gasket combined with a sparkplug not firing ie. cylinder 3 - maybe even if it is firing on cyl 3.

Not to discourage you completely but worst case is if the wheesing sound you describe comes from a blown headgasket.

Again check with the powder. Spray powder liberally around Cyl 3 and 4 where the cylinderhead is mounted on the cylinder, where the carb headers are mounted and where the exhaust is mounted. If there is liquid in what is making the sound you should be seeing it on the powder. If this doesn't show anything use ordinary powder. The leak is where the powder is blown away by the leaking air.

If you are in luck the wheesing sound comes from the breather as TT describes. Check if the breather tube is connected correctly.

Good luck

[jensk]

The link to the powder method is Uncle Ernies post:
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=3458.0

[Tvag]

Sorry this isn't clearer. I'll try and get better shots later. From what I can gather it looks like 1 and 2 are hot while 3 and 4 look cold?? I don't know... but they definately aren't uniform. #3 has less stuff on it than #4 but you can't tell here. What does this tell me?

[nomadwarmachine]

Without first synching your carbs, the plugs are not going to give you very much information (unless of course they are plugged with shredded metal, so you are out of the woods there!).

Now that your bike will start, you want to find out if it will run properly.  To do that, you have to 1) tighten the camchain; 2) adjust the valves; 3) set the gap/timing; 4) synch the carbs.  Apart from the "smoke" coming out of the head, the problems you've described may very likely be resolved with a simple, careful tuneup.  Once you have that done, you can begin properly diagnosing problems (such as idle circuit, low compression in cylinder, blown gasket, etc.)

Get your tune-up variables locked down, and then move from there.  You're making enormous progress!

[TwoTired]

Oh my god I'm going blind...Oh wait the picture is out of focus.
You got a real mean streak in you there Tvag.

What brand and number are those plugs?
One & 2 could be lean or showing high temps due to pulling most of the load out of the four cylinders.  Might also have intake leaks leaning the mixtures or extra air being sucked in from somewhere.  Were these plugs operated while the throttle was below the 1/4 position?  If so, the outer ring shows little deposits indicating clogged or over lean idle circuit in the carbs on those cylinders.  If you couldn't get the throttle below 1/4 then never mind.  The outer ring is always black after idling with these carbs, assuming the cylinder is firing.

Three & 4 could be sooting up from too much fuel in the breathing mix or poor ignition.   Those cylinders could be loafing due to poor carb synch. I can't tell if the dark plugs are shiny indicating oil deposits.

Also not known is the time duration from last run to picture exposure.  If a plug was wet with gas (non-firing) the gas has all evaporated by snapshot time.

Three and certainly 4 will almost certainly carbon foul if run conditions persits in this way.  Get yourself a backup set of plugs.  Blow torch the center insulators or run them in the 1&2 positions for a bit to burn off the deposits.

At the risk of repetition... Get all of the basic tune up list nailed to book values.  Check for equal spark at each spark plug.  A compression check will tell you if future engine tuning is folly or worthwhile.  If compression is decent, then you know that work on the bike will eventually pay off with a good running engine.  You just have to fix the attachment bits about the motor proper to make the cylinders equally happy.

Once I knew that compression and spark were known good, I'd revisit the carbs.

Um... Did you set the Idle Mixture Screws?  Never tighten those.  Only lightly seat to count the turns open.

Step by step... 

Cheers,

[csendker]

A minor and possibly inconsequential observation; your ignition circuits feed #1 & #4 and #2 & #3.  You have issues with #3 and #4 which spans both circuits, so it's probably not a bad ignition circuit.  Maybe a bad plug, cap or wire, but any further back and you'd be seeing similarities where you don't have them.