Topic: Absolute best fuel for 76 CB550F

[BomberMann650]

Makes sense. Engine knock... how does one identify that?

There is a certain rapping on a chamber door and an annoying raven.

[AirCanuck]

Makes sense. Engine knock... how does one identify that?

There is a certain rapping on a chamber door and an annoying raven.

Gotcha. Never more.

[DaveBarbier]

Something to think about: US car manufacturers in the 60's snd 70's advertised that their high performance engines made a "magic" one horsepower per cubic inch of displacement. For example the Chevy small block 350/350HP engine. Those engines all required high test. Well, the 750 sohc made 67  HP with only 45 cubic inches, or 1.488 HP per cubic inch. Do we not consider this high performance? Today's high perf. Engines use computers and knock  sensors to control detonation and preignition...and the ignition timing is set. You can't even set the idle. Now, let's look at the typical CB...do you know where your ignition timing is REALLY set to? Do you know where, and when you reach full timing advance? How many degrees of advance are you running full on? Dwell settings? Or what your mixture truly is? Do you have any, even tiny, vacuum leaks? How many KV are required to fire your plugs? Your engine could be slowly self destructing...and you wouldn't even know it. What's my point? I think non-ethanol high test is the cheapest insurace you can buy.

This is a bunch of very interesting points. What does everyone think? Also, does anyone know if you can get non-ethanol fuel in Canada?

ALSO, what is the point of non ethanol fuel anyway? Less varnish and such? Prevent Breaking down seals?

I think you're thinking about it too much. Either way you go you'll be fine. I use and will continue to use E10 lowest rating I can get except on my 674cc build because the compression has increased from stock. These bikes are very well engineered but they're not precision aerospace equipment, they won't explode killing hundreds if you put a drop of the wrong liquid in there. They're built like a brick sh*t house and I would venture the longevity of the motor is more determined by your wrist, oil change regimen and air filter replacing.

Just make sure you don't have engine knock. Save your hair pulling for something else.

Makes sense. Engine knock... how does one identify that?

It sounds like high pitched rattling like a couple rocks being shaken in a coffee can. Similar to how a diesel sounds but more...frantic. Of course describing sounds is subjective, I was trying to find a sound bite online but couldn't find anything.

[evinrude7]

i've read, you guys have already wound your way in a different direction.  all great discussion but to bring it back to something that bugs the hell out of me, the effects of gasoline containing ethanol.  i haven't greatly noticed the ill effects of it on the 750 (most likely because i'm just now getting into riding it regularly) however i have strongly noticed it in my mower and my truck (daily driver/work vehicle).  yes i'm teetering on needing to voice this in the "open forum".  the mower runs horribly on this stuff unless i use a stabilizer of some sort.  my truck runs like absolute garbage on this stuff.  once i fill it with non-enthanol fuel it returns to normal performance after a bit.  there is a station with non-ethanol a mile down the road.  i filled up the 750 with this last week.  took the bike on a 100 mile jaunt saturday.  it seemed to run pretty nice. 

[AirCanuck]

i've read, you guys have already wound your way in a different direction.  all great discussion but to bring it back to something that bugs the hell out of me, the effects of gasoline containing ethanol.  i haven't greatly noticed the ill effects of it on the 750 (most likely because i'm just now getting into riding it regularly) however i have strongly noticed it in my mower and my truck (daily driver/work vehicle).  yes i'm teetering on needing to voice this in the "open forum".  the mower runs horribly on this stuff unless i use a stabilizer of some sort.  my truck runs like absolute garbage on this stuff.  once i fill it with non-enthanol fuel it returns to normal performance after a bit.  there is a station with non-ethanol a mile down the road.  i filled up the 750 with this last week.  took the bike on a 100 mile jaunt saturday.  it seemed to run pretty nice.

How old are the mower and truck?

[Deltarider]

There's theory and there's practice. It's difficult for other bikes than my own to determine what is best, so I can't give advice in detail. I therefore attached an article translated by me (don't shoot me if there's an error) that deals with all aspects of ethanolgas more or less. The article compares the behaviour of several gasolines, explains phase separation that can happen under certain conditions, informs you on the possible effects on O-rings and tries to make an estimation of the possible difference in mileage. It even has some words about classics like ours. I selected this article because it's frank, open, balanced and unbiased. You can determine for yourself what applies to you and your specific bike because you are the one that knows how often you ride, under what conditions and where and how long your bike will be parked, etc.
An advice in general concerning mowers. If it is feasable to mow electric, do it! In my teens I used to do the mowing and I remember with horror the awful smell of that horrible thing that couldn't be escaped. I hate to think how much lead and other poisonous chemicals I have inhaled in those years.

[PeWe]

Just to avoid ethanol, I run Shell premium in old bikes and engines. The octane rating is too high but ethanol has caused a lot of issues with carb seals for me, and getting all Viton seals is not so easy. Shell premium is the only ethanol free commonly available fuel in Ontario.
I do advance timing a bit to get some performance improvement with the high octane. Stock full advance is designed for a knock safety margin with the old 87 octane rating. Setting with a few degrees more full advance is safe with high octane ethanol free modern fuel. And the performance boost is noticeable.

Good information!
I had a feeling about more advance needed  than the marks on advancer for full power.

[MRieck]

 I run VP Small Engine Fuel. 94 octane and ethanol free. I don't ride my CB that often and got sick of rebuilding carbs twice a year. It smells like the old Testor's orange/white tube model cement. Only weird thing is I get a good A/F reading but the plugs are spotless....like no deposits.

[evinrude7]

i've read, you guys have already wound your way in a different direction.  all great discussion but to bring it back to something that bugs the hell out of me, the effects of gasoline containing ethanol.  i haven't greatly noticed the ill effects of it on the 750 (most likely because i'm just now getting into riding it regularly) however i have strongly noticed it in my mower and my truck (daily driver/work vehicle).  yes i'm teetering on needing to voice this in the "open forum".  the mower runs horribly on this stuff unless i use a stabilizer of some sort.  my truck runs like absolute garbage on this stuff.  once i fill it with non-enthanol fuel it returns to normal performance after a bit.  there is a station with non-ethanol a mile down the road.  i filled up the 750 with this last week.  took the bike on a 100 mile jaunt saturday.  it seemed to run pretty nice.

How old are the mower and truck?

mower is a 4 or 5 year old model.  truck is 2007. 

[Gene]

Delta . . . just for fun a hearty FU and a giggle for the Avatar. You're always good for a laugh. I mean that with respect. And I will never ride my bike less than 200K at less that 4K on the tach

Sorry for interrupting, I couldn't help it.

Bomber, thank you for the Poe. Perhaps we are kindred poets.

[Airborne 82nd]

I stopped reading when foundational comments acquired obvious flaws.

As soon as alcohol contacts water, it begins making alkali compounds at a rate consistent with the densities involved and other impurities present.  Labs cannot account for all the variables, so they pick the most likely or most predominant.  The definition of "short" therefore revolves around the exposure time and the quantity build up in strength of the alkali compounds.  We know that it happens, regardless, because the chemical process in known.  How long does acid take to dissolve human teeth?  How many sodas/ lemons are consummed?  And with what food that is counteractive to its acetic activity?  Too many variables to make a relevant prediction. Yet we know that it does take place.  And some of the populace loses teeth.  If they are old, who cares?  They aren't relevant to a vibrant economy.  Just as vintage bikes aren't.

Further, if the test reports only include the most modern or most likely, and overlooks sound science, the test instantly becomes subjective and biased by the choice of assumptions made for the tests.

Why bother to read in detail a report that makes assumptions that do not apply to vintage motorcycles or the storage periods that many undergo routinely on a seasonal basis? 
People are not machines and it is so very unlikely to uniformly top up their tank when variable weather makes useage iffy and then get distracted by other life happenings.
Perfect maintenance is hardly ever performed, despite well intentioned.  Gasohol is another nail in the coffin, to shorten the useful life of our vintage vehicles where engineers had no notion of the routine injection of alchohol into the fuel supply.

Hey its good for the economy if people spend more money on repairs or vehicle replacement.  What do the gas companies care?  You are gonna buy more fuel whether in your vintage machine when repaired or replaced.  Best to ausuage the buyer to feel better about their continued purchase.  That's good marketing strategy.
Gas companies behave as successful parasites, that don't outright kill the host (consumer), just make them suffer somewhat tolerably, to continue on.

Unless, we do our own chemical analysis and service life studies, we just pick and choose other's work that we favor, and live with the consequences of that choice.
Not much in life is guaranteed. Societal imperitives rule over science, right?

Cheers,

Damn TT you have to write like this just as I get a hurt tooth and have to go to the dentist. I'm stressed enough. But I'm old so who cares. Now what were we talking about.

[AirCanuck]

i've read, you guys have already wound your way in a different direction.  all great discussion but to bring it back to something that bugs the hell out of me, the effects of gasoline containing ethanol.  i haven't greatly noticed the ill effects of it on the 750 (most likely because i'm just now getting into riding it regularly) however i have strongly noticed it in my mower and my truck (daily driver/work vehicle).  yes i'm teetering on needing to voice this in the "open forum".  the mower runs horribly on this stuff unless i use a stabilizer of some sort.  my truck runs like absolute garbage on this stuff.  once i fill it with non-enthanol fuel it returns to normal performance after a bit.  there is a station with non-ethanol a mile down the road.  i filled up the 750 with this last week.  took the bike on a 100 mile jaunt saturday.  it seemed to run pretty nice.

How old are the mower and truck?

mower is a 4 or 5 year old model.  truck is 2007.

Surprising that a 2007 would suffer much from it... my 06 Mazda 3 always ran beautifully on regular.

[Sandy650]

My experience in recent years has been mostly with dirt bikes (I'm not entirely corrupted I now also have a 1980 CB650C).
I think for most of us the question of ethanol or no ethanol is worth considering. Where I live in BC Canada the only way to avoid ethanol is to use 94 octane. Over the years I have revived a fair number of dirt bike carbs and since the addition of ethanol many carbs that I have taken apart were damaged beyond repair. My non-scientific conclusion is that the ethanol is responsible for the damage which consists of rock hard deposits as well as severe corrosion. This is likely more of a problem for dirt bikes which are often left to sit with gas in the carb.
Based on my experience I won't use gas containing ethanol in any of my bikes.

YMMV,
Sandy

[Deltarider]

Yesterday I filled my tank with Shell's V-Power. I noticed that on the pump it now says 95 (octane) where it said 97 before. Strange. Could this be an indication of now added ethanol? Any of you Dutchmen know more? I've tried to find out on Shell's site, but there's the usual mist of 'Dynaflex Technology' bla bla, etc. It also says: Benzine: Standaard benzine (Euro 95 en super) die geschikt is voor alle benzinemotoren mag tot 5% ethanol bevatten. Deze wordt ook wel E5 genoemd. In translation: "Gasoline: Standard Gasoline (Euro 95 and super [= premium] that can be used in all gasoline engines may contain 5% ethanol. Also known as E5." Not a word about V-power but the now decreased octanenumber from 97 to 95 makes me suspicious. IMO gasoline suppliers should be open about the % of ethano and should not be allowed to hide behind: 'for competition reasons we cannot reveal the composition...' Yes, to some extent they may, not where it concerns ethanol. More on this soon, I hope.

[robvangulik]

For some time now i have been filling up all my bikes with BP excellium, that is the only brand in the neighborhood without ethanol, and starting and range both have improved, the pricing is between Shell euro95  and Vpower.
While on the road i will still get any fuel i can get, but when i expect a bike not to be used for some time i make sure there is BP in it.

[Geeto67]

Yesterday I filled my tank with Shell's V-Power. I noticed that on the pump it now says 95 (octane) where it said 97 before. Strange. Could this be an indication of now added ethanol? Any of you Dutchmen know more? I've tried to find out on Shell's site, but there's the usual mist of 'Dynaflex Technology' bla bla, etc. It also says: Benzine: Standaard benzine (Euro 95 en super) die geschikt is voor alle benzinemotoren mag tot 5% ethanol bevatten. Deze wordt ook wel E5 genoemd. In translation: "Gasoline: Standard Gasoline (Euro 95 and super [= premium] that can be used in all gasoline engines may contain 5% ethanol. Also known as E5." Not a word about V-power but the now decreased octanenumber from 97 to 95 makes me suspicious. IMO gasoline suppliers should be open about the % of ethano and should not be allowed to hide behind: 'for competition reasons we cannot reveal the composition...' Yes, to some extent they may, not where it concerns ethanol. More on this soon, I hope.

Ethanol is an octane booster (it typically  behaves like 112 octane gasoline) so lowering the octane at the shell pump is not an indicator of E10. Usually the tag saying E10 is an indicator as ALL pumps dispensing ethanolated fuel have to be labeled.

I think a lot of Shell stations are switching from 97 to 95 because of availability and pricing. The gulf between regular and premium used to be as little as 10-15 cents a gallon but in the last 2 years it has jumped to 50cents a gallon or more depending on the octane. It's a hard sell to people, even if their car/bike requires it. My wife has switched to mid-grade in her turbo audi because of the price difference. I still put it high test in my bmw but I try to look for 93 rather than 95 or 97 because 50 cents a gallon more money is cheaper than 65cents or 80cents.

In terms of E10, the solution is to ride more and store less. It hurts stuff when sitting, doesn't hurt it when it's being burned and churned.