Topic: Antigravity 4 or 8 cell vs lead acid (bonus Ricks Reg/Rec placement question)

[AirCanuck]

Right. So I've got a cafe 1978 Cb550k and this seems to be an issue still under debate. (Various threads here loving or decrying the use of lithium ion)

It has a ricks Reg rec combo unit. Currently it has a lead acid battery under the seat (along with an Munit).

The issue of course is that the lead acid sits on its side to fit under the seat which I'm told will kill it in fairly short order. Apparently the antigravity 4 or 8 cell is the way to go given that I've got the upgraded ricks. Links at bottom for both batteries.

I know nothing about electronics. How do I know what amp-hour and voltages I need? What is the significance of this? It's how many amps it can provide for how many hours, ya? But someone told me it's also related to how long it can crank the engine?

Second bonus question: ricks Reg/Rec is under the seat as well. Apparently this is common in cafe builds. Worried about heat as it won't have airflow. Anyone else done this with theres? Alternative ideas?

All help and advice is appreciated.

https://m.ebay.ca/itm/Antigravity-Batteries-Small-Case-8-Cell-Lithium-Ion-Battery-AG-801-AG-801-/232125851051?hash=item360bc765ab%3Ag%3APCkAAOSw44BYEfU2&_trkparms=pageci%253A662eab19-8ec7-11e7-8a98-74dbd180831e%257Cparentrq%253A3b873c7015e0a86705b861dffffa51dd%257Ciid%253A1

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B00COSNMSI/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504238997&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=4+cell+antigravity&dpPl=1&dpID=51hd5-vak7L&ref=plSrch

[Bodi]

I would use an AGM lead-acid battery that can go in any orientation, rather than a lithium one. The charge characteristics are very similar to the wet cell original and - although damaged as with a normal bike battery - it won't be destroyed by full discharge like lithium cells are. The bike has no protection against full discharge.

[lrutt]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I would allow the reg/reg unit to get some airflow.  As for Lithium based batteries, I would only recommend Shorai or Speedcell.  I have had 2 others fail.  NOTE: if a lithium-based battery falls under a specified voltage (enumerated in the manual), IT WILL NOT COME BACK -- unlike gel mat or lead batteries. 

If space and weight are not hypercritical (eg. racebike), go with a gel mat battery.  They are still way lighter than a lead acid battery.

[AirCanuck]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

Do you have photos of your ricks rr rig? Is the rest of the wiring under your seat? I have Pods as well so your rig may work for me..

[AirCanuck]

I would allow the reg/reg unit to get some airflow.  As for Lithium based batteries, I would only recommend Shorai or Speedcell.  I have had 2 others fail.  NOTE: if a lithium-based battery falls under a specified voltage (enumerated in the manual), IT WILL NOT COME BACK -- unlike gel mat or lead batteries. 

If space and weight are not hypercritical (eg. racebike), go with a gel mat battery.  They are still way lighter than a lead acid battery.

How do I know what shorai I should use for my 550?

[innovativems]

I second sohc cafe racer fan on speedcell.  I can get you one of you chose


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[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

Do you have photos of your ricks rr rig? Is the rest of the wiring under your seat? I have Pods as well so your rig may work for me..

I don't have any photos handy.  My wiring is about to say "adios" next week as I replace the stock wiring for Motogadget.

[AirCanuck]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

Do you have photos of your ricks rr rig? Is the rest of the wiring under your seat? I have Pods as well so your rig may work for me..

I don't have any photos handy.  My wiring is about to say "adios" next week as I replace the stock wiring for Motogadget.

Is that an Munit? Mine has that. Pretty slick.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

Do you have photos of your ricks rr rig? Is the rest of the wiring under your seat? I have Pods as well so your rig may work for me..

I don't have any photos handy.  My wiring is about to say "adios" next week as I replace the stock wiring for Motogadget.

Is that an Munit? Mine has that. Pretty slick.

It's getting one.

[AirCanuck]

I don't have any photos handy.  My wiring is about to say "adios" next week as I replace the stock wiring for Motogadget.

Is that an Munit? Mine has that. Pretty slick.

What is this Munit of which you speak? 

I can't tell if you mean it or not due to my absolute newbiness 

[AirCanuck]

Hmmm so it would seem that there is no real "consensus" amongst the community on batterie, eh?

My options seem to be...

AGM lead acid
Speed cell (LI?)
Shorai (not LI?)
Antigravity (LI)

That about sum it up?

[AirCanuck]

I second sohc cafe racer fan on speedcell.  I can get you one of you chose


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How does speedcell compare to antigravity? Why do you recommend it? It's still a lithium ion right? 

Are you saying you've got one for sale or have a good source on them or something, or are they hard to get on eBay/amazon etc?

[innovativems]

I second sohc cafe racer fan on speedcell.  I can get you one of you chose


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How does speedcell compare to antigravity? Why do you recommend it? It's still a lithium ion right? 

Are you saying you've got one for sale or have a good source on them or something, or are they hard to get on eBay/amazon etc?

Well I've been very impressed with speedcell and absolutely love the quick disconnect all of their batteries use. 

I'm a dealer for speedcell.  I don't get a whole lot of a price cut but I can help out if you go that route.  Alot of the big ama superbike teams are running speedcell now.  Their quality is top notch. 


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[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Shorai is running a 20% off discount SUMMER20 until this coming Tuesday September 5th.

[AirCanuck]

Shorai is running a 20% off discount SUMMER20 until this coming Tuesday September 5th.

Would you mind telling me which battery you recommend by them and why you do? I have a charging issue right now but a new lead acid, so I would keep that battery in until I knew the charging was bullet proof.

What are the pros and cons of this battery?

[AirCanuck]

I can't tell if you mean it or not due to my absolute newbiness 

I mean it.

Best explanation I can give you is that it's to replace the original wiring harness. Even better, here is the website...

https://motogadget.com/shop/en/m-unit-digit-tastersteuerung-u-sicherung.html

[AirCanuck]

How do I know what shorai I should use for my 550?

LFX-14A2 is all you need.

Going on the shorai site, they recommend the LFX14A5 battery for my bike. Thoughts?

[AirCanuck]

The A5 is a larger frame battery, more comparable to your stock size. The A2 is a small frame battery, about the size of 4 packs of cigarettes.

That would definitely be better for fitting in the space under the seat!! Will it have enough juice for what I need on a 550? I think the bike runs pretty light on draw, all lights have been replaced with LEDs.

I really don't know anything about batteries... what is important? The voltage? The amp-hours? Why?

[AirCanuck]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

Apologies if this is a silly question from a newbie, but you said shorai is a good alternative to ion - I thought shorai was lithium ion as well??

[AirCanuck]

The Shorai I posted has all the power you need, and it is used by many folks. The Shorai is a Lithium-Iron not Ion. The AntiGravs are Ion. The Shorai is still vulnerable to over-discharging as Bodi stated early on.

Oh geeze - so much to learn! Ok thanks very much. I'll have a look at that site. Wonder if they ship to Canada!

[AirCanuck]

Use a Shorai, safer alternative than ion types. Mount anywhere, any angle, small and light. I've had a Shorai in my XR650l now for 8 years.

As for Ricks RR, I've got mine mounted bottom side of an AL plate under the seat. It barely gets warm it seems. There is plenty of air circulating but then I'm running pods so it's wide open.

Can anyone comment on why the shorai is safer than an ion type? 

I'm so impressed by how helpful and patient this community is.

[AirCanuck]

The Shorai I posted has all the power you need, and it is used by many folks. The Shorai is a Lithium-Iron not Ion. The AntiGravs are Ion. The Shorai is still vulnerable to over-discharging as Bodi stated early on.

https://shoraipower.com/lfx14a2-bs12-p66

all I can find is the lfx14a2-bs12 is that what you're recommending?

[przjohn]

This thread is probably the most informative on the internet regarding batteries. The OP is very knowledgeable on the subject. Yes, the thread is huge but he gives a Readers Digest version a few posts in.


http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/motorcycle-batteries-agm-gel-wet-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.757934/


If you don't want to read through his explanations, here's the story spoiler. Buy an AGM if mounting and weight are not an issue.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

They are all relatively safe if you use a solid state regulator/rectifier. 

[AirCanuck]

They are all relatively safe if you use a solid state regulator/rectifier.

What do you mean by "safe"? Yep I have a solid state ricks rr

[AirCanuck]

This thread is probably the most informative on the internet regarding batteries. The OP is very knowledgeable on the subject. Yes, the thread is huge but he gives a Readers Digest version a few posts in.


http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/motorcycle-batteries-agm-gel-wet-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.757934/


If you don't want to read through his explanations, here's the story spoiler. Buy an AGM if mounting and weight are not an issue.

I'll be reading that for sure. I really want to learn. The issue for me is that the battery will be mounted on its side in the small space under the cafe seat.

[AirCanuck]

After all the advice I've received, I feel kind of lost.

The options are AGM, lithium iron (shorai) lithium ion (speedcell).

Seems that the best option is shorai,downside being If I have a charging issue it's dead. Also more expensive.

AGM would be next, downside is it's not as small? Cheaper, can be oriented in any direction.

Almost seems like AGM is just as good of an option. Are they the same size? Can someone give me a rundown of these three options and which might be best for my 1978 Cb550k cafe to fit under the cafe seat? It may seem silly but I feel totally lost on this battery issue.

[AirCanuck]

I don't know of an AGM that fits beneath a cafe seat. Most lithiums will.

Ha which I suppose brings us back to the Shorai lithium iron ya? What is its advantage over a lithium ion battery?

Thank you for all your responses, I really appreciate it. I was hoping to get the shorai site to ship to me with that discount... they ship to Canada but for some reason won't ship to me in Nova Scotia. Guess I'll have to try that other source you mentioned should i use this battery

[AirCanuck]

So can anyone explain the advantage of lithium iron over lithium ion?

[TwoTired]

Lithium ion has a tendency to burst into flames when mistreated by improper charge measures.
Lithium iron phosphate doesn't.  But, it can still die an early death if you discharge it too deeply.  It's a whimpy death, though, rather than attempting to drag you and all your possessions to hell.

Cheers,

P.S. The voltage per cell is different, too.

[scottly]

It's a whimpy death, though, rather than attempting to drag you and all your possessions to hell.

Dammit, that's the second time this evening I've snorted beer out of my nose.

[AirCanuck]

Lithium ion has a tendency to burst into flames when mistreated by improper charge measures.
Lithium iron phosphate doesn't.  But, it can still die an early death if you discharge it too deeply.  It's a whimpy death, though, rather than attempting to drag you and all your possessions to hell.

Cheers,

P.S. The voltage per cell is different, too.

Wonderful, thank you iron it is, then.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That's also the reason you want a solid state R/R. A short with the stock reg/rec and a lithium ion battery can result in a runaway charge. No pretty.

[AirCanuck]

Makes sense. Got that covered!