Author Topic: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?  (Read 7624 times)

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Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« on: September 09, 2017, 09:31:32 PM »
Hi guys, I'm rarely in a position where I can take the time to do it the way I want while keeping my transportation functional, so I want to take advantage of it while I got it!

Today, it's brakes. I've got a caliper that sticks, rubs, and squeals like a piggy, plus a caliper that's got a constant slow drip down the lever. It's annoying for a thousand reasons,  but especially because it leaches dye from my gloves and dyed my fingers (plus it's probably toxic for me).

Anyway, I've got a spare master cylinder that came with the bike that's full of corrosion and gross crap, and a pretty good rebuilt caliper that I bought from eBay.

I'd like to rebuild everything and get it all in tip top shape, including paint or powder coat, plus any ideas or suggestions you all have.

We'll start it off pretty open ended... where do you think I should start?
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 09:45:07 PM »
Oh, I should have added that I boiled the master cylinder for one hour, changed the water and boiled it again for another hour. The reservoir is still pretty funky looking, but all the solid white stuff and gelatinous crud is gone. Plus, the Piston now moves quite nicely!

Boiling was done outside with my camp stove in a pot from Goodwill that I bought for $3.
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline 754

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2017, 12:18:44 AM »
Umm don't boil another master cylinder..
Take your other one off, one evening,  clean it out,  put your kit into it..refill, bleed, and use it.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Scott S

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2017, 05:14:40 AM »
 David Silver Spares or 4into1.com for a new master cylinder. Only a few bucks more than a rebuild kit.

 New caliper piston and O-ring.

 New braided stainless lines.
 
 Done.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2017, 08:36:57 AM »
Umm don't boil another master cylinder...

Why no boiling? It seems like a common thing to do?

Also the paint on my new caliper is less than ideal, so I was thinking of stripping it and powder coating it flat or satin black. Anybody here have experience powder coating at home?
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline 754

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 09:25:25 AM »
Actually I never heard if anyone doing that to a bike cylinder.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 09:54:10 AM »
What did you boil it in?

Boiling can make chemical reactions more active.

Where did the boiling idea come from?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 10:23:28 AM »
Boiled in tap water. The white residue on the cylinder body was mineral deposit and dissolved crud in the water, dried on the surface after removing from the pot. It rinsed off easily with tap water.

I read about it on several forums including here, and is a great way to get solidified 40 year old brake fluid out. The Piston was hard frozen, and with almost no work at all, it moves smoothly with hand force and returns easily.

I'd still like to rebuild it (I already bought a kit from 4into1) but I wish I took Scott S's advice and just bought a new MC!

I really like to get in and fix things myself anyway, but is there a big opportunity to improve performance, usability, or maintainability with a new MC? For instance, 4into1 sells these:

http://4into1.com/cafe-style-satin-black-complete-brake-master-cylinder/
http://4into1.com/80s-style-honda-complete-brake-master-cylinder/

One consideration: I've got low Norman Hyde bars (from the PO), which puts the reservoir at a severe angle. Is this what's causing the MC to leak?
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline 754

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 11:27:02 AM »
They can be reused when you anneal them, 5 minutes and you got it installed..faster than Amazon..
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 12:29:27 AM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Stev-o

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 11:34:37 AM »
+1 to the repop master cylinder from DSS.

I paint calipers that look bad with satin caliper paint from the local auto store.

Never boiled anything on the bike....
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 11:15:56 PM »
Okay. I can't tell where the leak is coming from, but it's kinda messy. I'll clean the whole thing off thoroughly, then look for leaks.

I also pulled up an exploded diagram, and it looks like I'm missing the diaphragm. That might be part of the issue.
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 09:47:30 AM »
It's clear that it's leaking from the top of my reservoir, but seeing that I don't have the diaphragm or the plate, it seems like that's a pretty clear problem.

Can you guys help me find a "Master cylinder plate" (part number 14)? None of my MC's have one. I've got a lead on the diaphragm from David Silver Spares, but they don't have anything that fits the description of the plate (that I can find). Even just a part number would help. Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 09:49:09 AM by ilikepinkcrayons »
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2017, 11:01:57 AM »

Never boiled anything on the bike....

Only thing I ever boiled was brake pads. I have heard its a way to get any spilled brake fluid out of them. Stock brakes suck something awful anyway so no clue if it really worked.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2017, 11:08:39 AM »
It's clear that it's leaking from the top of my reservoir, but seeing that I don't have the diaphragm or the plate, it seems like that's a pretty clear problem.

Can you guys help me find a "Master cylinder plate" (part number 14)? None of my MC's have one. I've got a lead on the diaphragm from David Silver Spares, but they don't have anything that fits the description of the plate (that I can find). Even just a part number would help. Thanks.
All the MC parts are still available from Honda. No need to go to DSS.
http://shop.westernhonda.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2450251&category=Motorcycles&make=Honda&year=1975&fveh=131064

Do you have a copy of the parts list?
http://honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/parts-list/parts-list-cb550
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 11:11:31 AM by CycleRanger »
Do you have a copy of the Honda Shop Manual or Parts List for your bike? Get one here:
https://www.honda4fun.com/materiale/documentazione-tecnica
CB750K5        '79 XL250s     CL350K3
CB750K3        '76 XS650      '76 CJ360T

Offline 754

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2017, 11:57:57 AM »
I like your early bicycle catalogue avatar, I have a catalog similar to that.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2017, 12:21:58 PM »
Ranger: Thanks, I'll dig into those and find what I'm looking for.

754: I love old bicycles (two wheels is a common theme in my life), and I love Art Nouveau. My wife bought that poster for me, and for some reason, it's really inspiring for me. It makes me want to get out and work on a project.

All: I'm genuinely surprised that the boiling of the master cylinder isn't more common. I'm in no way saying you should spend hours of work trying to rebuild your old MCs when you can just buy one from pretty much anywhere for $20 more than a rebuild kit, but the boilding trick is a must know for anyone interested in rebuilding MCs.

The Sully's Garage Youtube Video is an oft sighted video to start with on how to rebuild a CB master cylinder. He explains that brake fluid (DOT 3 & 4) is soluble in water. By boiling it in water, it brakes down all the nasty junk that's in there, and can help freeze a stuck piston. If you search for "boil master cylinder" or "stuck master cylinder", you'll find a lot of other people doing something similar. I recommend to remove the rubber boot before boiling, and I also wouldn't recommend reusing any of the parts except for the MC body itself.

If you're concerned about corrosion, try using distilled water. It will not have the mineral deposits that my heavy tap water has, plus, it will reduce the possibility of accelerating galvanic corrosion between the aluminum and steel components. But, even at 212°F (100°C), a few hours in tap water shouldn't hurt anything. My MC looked like the one in this video.

Now that your piston is nice and easy to actuate, it's time to get that circlip out. Again, mine looked something like the one in the video above: heavily rusted and stuck. I gave the circlip a few rinses with vinegar (we should also all know that vinegar dissolves rust on steel), but there is some mixed opinions on what white vinegar will do to aluminum in the real world, so I can't exactly recommend letting it sit in there for too long. I let mine sit for about 1 hour while watching an episode of top gear (i have it on random selection for background noise. this one was the episode where Hamond makes the Malibu Beach Barbie police car out of a Suzuki Vitara...Brilliant!). It's still stuck, but I can actually see it now, and I'm letting some PB blaster soak in there over night. We'll see how it get's along tomorrow.
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2017, 02:20:49 PM »
I got impatient and checked on the circlip, popped out without too much trouble. I ended up using a screwdriver to push the piston down, and a heavy duty jeweler's pick to pull the ring out. The only circlip pliers I have right now just couldn't reach.

Next step: Clean the bore with a bore brush and give 'er a quick hone.
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2017, 03:48:01 PM »
I don't really want to argue too much about the boiling thing because I don't really care what other people do. But for the sake of information, I'll finish off my thoughts about it with this:

- In the real world, it worked excellently for one guy (me). It may or may not have worked well for others, but I've never seen first hand what others are doing, so I cannot vouch for their success. It's possible that I am (and other people who have written about this are) spreading bad advice. Your mileage may vary. Your experience with this (or lack of experience with this) may be different than mine.
- You're taking safety into your own hands if you decide you want to rebuild, modify, or work on (in any capacity) a safety critical system. Please, do not do anything you're not perfectly comfortable with. If you read something on the internet that does not seem logical or comfortable to you, just don't do it.
- As mentioned before, rebuilding MCs may not make much sense. Other's have pointed out: fully built MCs are not much more expensive than a rebuild kit. I'm doing this because I'd like to learn something new, I don't want to throw away something that can be repaired, and I'm dumb.

From a factual perspective:
- DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 are all soluble in water (polyethylene glycol base). Rate of dissolution and total solubility both increase with temperature, but agitation only increases the rate of dissolution (not the total solubility). For similar amounts of build-up, ultrasonic cleaning may have similar results when using water, but may require longer exposure to the water and require more frequent changes of water as the solution will reach saturation more quickly.
- Corrosion of the steel parts may increase in an aqueous environment, especially if it's in contact with an electrolytic solution (e.g. salt water). Rate of corrosion increases with temperature, but I'm not sure how it changes with agitation (my guess it is there's no appreciable increase). I would not recommend reusing any of the steel parts (but you bought a rebuild kit, right? Then who cares what happens to the steel parts as long as they come out.)
- The aluminum body may be damaged by both basic and acidic solutions, so careful selection of your cleaning solution is important. Distilled water will not damage aluminum at boiling temperatures during this amount of time, but tap water may have some residual minerals, salts, or metals, or have an imbalanced PH. This may cause the aluminum to corrode. The alkalinity of some common/popular cleaners (such as Simple Green) will damage uncoated aluminum, and may damage coated aluminum depending on the type and condition of the coating. Be careful what solutions you use to clean your aluminum.
- There may be some galvanic corrosion of the aluminum due to conductive contact between the steel parts and the uncoated aluminum bore of the MC body. This corrosion will be minimized or eliminated with the use of distilled water due to the lack of an electrolytic solution closing the circuit between the anode and the cathode.
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline Stev-o

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2017, 03:59:53 PM »
You're not dumb. 

Got a pic of your MGB?  My good friend had one, we had a blast in that car...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Scott S

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2017, 04:04:00 PM »
It's clear that it's leaking from the top of my reservoir, but seeing that I don't have the diaphragm or the plate, it seems like that's a pretty clear problem.

Can you guys help me find a "Master cylinder plate" (part number 14)? None of my MC's have one. I've got a lead on the diaphragm from David Silver Spares, but they don't have anything that fits the description of the plate (that I can find). Even just a part number would help. Thanks.
All the MC parts are still available from Honda. No need to go to DSS.
http://shop.westernhonda.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2450251&category=Motorcycles&make=Honda&year=1975&fveh=131064


 Western Hills doesn't list part #33 as being available. Aftermarket kits are ~$26-40. A brand new master cylinder is $44.
 And most people don't have the correct hone, snap ring pliers, etc. Unless you're rebuilding a sandcast or something, I don't see why anyone would spend the time rebuilding a master cylinder to save $15-20, at best.

http://4into1.com/replica-kawasaki-complete-brake-master-cylinder-use-on-honda-too-14mm/

 I know for a fact that those masters work great. Braided stainless lines, a new caliper seal and, if the piston is pitted at all, a new piston. I bet for barely over $100-125 you can have a fully rebuilt brake system that will work just about the best you're gonna get with stock components.

http://4into1.com/brake-caliper-rebuild-kit-honda-cb450k-1970-1971-cb750k-1969-1976/

 I found a hydraulic shop near me that makes braided hoses to my pattern for a fraction of the price the "name brand" shops sell, too.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2017, 06:35:55 PM »
Western Hills doesn't list part #33 as being available. Aftermarket kits are ~$26-40. A brand new master cylinder is $44.
 And most people don't have the correct hone, snap ring pliers, etc. Unless you're rebuilding a sandcast or something, I don't see why anyone would spend the time rebuilding a master cylinder to save $15-20, at best.

http://4into1.com/replica-kawasaki-complete-brake-master-cylinder-use-on-honda-too-14mm/

 I know for a fact that those masters work great. Braided stainless lines, a new caliper seal and, if the piston is pitted at all, a new piston. I bet for barely over $100-125 you can have a fully rebuilt brake system that will work just about the best you're gonna get with stock components.

http://4into1.com/brake-caliper-rebuild-kit-honda-cb450k-1970-1971-cb750k-1969-1976/

 I found a hydraulic shop near me that makes braided hoses to my pattern for a fraction of the price the "name brand" shops sell, too.

MC rebuild kits are still available from Honda under this PN:45530-377-305
However the aftermarket kits from 4into1 are cheaper and work just as well.

Personally I prefer to rebuild an original MC if it's practical to do so.
I just rebuilt the MC on my 550 because it was in good enough condition to do so however I won't waste any time trying to rehabilitate an MC that's too far gone.
Aftermarket MC's are perfectly fine, I used one on my XS650 as the original was pitted beyond salvage.
Boiling a MC to clean it should be fine. I've never done it, I usually use carb cleaner or other solvents.
Do you have a copy of the Honda Shop Manual or Parts List for your bike? Get one here:
https://www.honda4fun.com/materiale/documentazione-tecnica
CB750K5        '79 XL250s     CL350K3
CB750K3        '76 XS650      '76 CJ360T

Online jonda500

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2017, 07:04:48 PM »
I also can't bear to throw away an original part if it's rebuildable. I had one master that couldn't be rebuilt so I bought a secondhand original and rebuilt that instead. I had another one I rebuilt that had a problem with the piston catching on something in the cylinder locking the brakes on - I replaced that one with another second hand one which was only $30 and so far hasn't needed rebuilding.
John
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

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Offline ilikepinkcrayons

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2017, 09:04:04 AM »
I bet all of you guys a million trillion bucks that once I'm done with all of this, it's going to leak like an incontinent geriatric, loose all brake pressure, and I'm going to crash and die. When that happens, I'll make sure to update you all.

But I will stubbornly persevere with this against all logic. (Actually, had I even looked at the cost of a new MC before buying an MC rebuild kit, I probably would have just done that.)
1968 MGB
1975 CB550K
1981 Volvo 244 GLT

Offline Stev-o

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2017, 03:06:27 PM »
I bet all of you guys a million trillion bucks that once I'm done with all of this, it's going to leak...

I would not take that bet!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to rebuild my brakes... like a boss?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2017, 07:43:39 PM »
I bet all of you guys a million trillion bucks that once I'm done with all of this, it's going to leak...

I would not take that bet!

Gee, I rebuilt 20 or more Honda Master cylinders and none of them leaked.

I just used Honda kits and for the correct models.  And, I did hone the cylinders.  Did NOT boil them. 

I do so like when I can do miracles.   ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.