Topic: Thoughts about points

[magnum56]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

Much to learn, Grasshopper. Much to learn-

lucky I enjoy learning and am enthusiastic about the topic!

"This too shall pass"   

[BomberMann650]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

Much to learn, Grasshopper. Much to learn-

lucky I enjoy learning and am enthusiastic about the topic!

"This too shall pass"   

Yep, eventually you'll forego the polite manners customary of the northern brethren and pick up a few aussie slurs to hurl around the shop.

[AirCanuck]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

Much to learn, Grasshopper. Much to learn-

lucky I enjoy learning and am enthusiastic about the topic!

"This too shall pass"   

I'm sure the day will come. So far it has been very interesting.

[AirCanuck]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

Much to learn, Grasshopper. Much to learn-

lucky I enjoy learning and am enthusiastic about the topic!

"This too shall pass"   

Yep, eventually you'll forego the polite manners customary of the northern brethren and pick up a few aussie slurs to hurl around the shop.

I'm RCAF, work with Aussie exchange pilots all the time so I got that covered

[PeWe]

I choosed both, Points AND Electronic ignition. Hondaman module
It got condensors (capacitors) today too. Were delivered with the point plate, NOS TEC
I have used it without most of the time. I have had some minor misfires now and then at higher rpm that might be the result of no condensors.

I checked ignition setting today with dwell meter and strobe lamp. Still spot on since  almost one week back!! I was sure that the setting should go bad when I moved point plate a little counterclockwise and then clockwise from my setting to see if dyno result will change. (It did not like more advance at higher rpm, a little bit later OK, but no big deal.
I'll have to adjust again this winter when I lift cam to re-torque the head just  for sure. Maybe I let another cam play around for a while...

Set ignition is a must for me anyway since I remove the ignition when timing the cam, degree wheel is mounted on the advancer.

Alright guys.  I'm biting the bullet of embarrassment.  What is dwell on this system?

The 'dwell' angle is the amount of time the points are closed in one revolution, measured in degrees.
But, cheap dwell meters will yield different readings from those often published here. If the dwell meter you have in use can first be calibrated to points-closed reading (zeroed) and then run, it will give an actual dwell. Most aren't that good, today, being just pulse-width measurement estimation gadgets. I have on old racing meter which IS accurate, but for the sake of not starting another 'oil thread'-like argument, I won't published what the real dwell numbers are from these bikes.
Instead, set the gap and timing to be spot-on for YOUR bike with YOUR dwell meter, and then remember that value, instead.

Thanks for the input Mark. I have a cheap automotive multimeter where dwell is one of the functions. I'll check the gap the old way to verify. I like the dwell meter when I'll get both points equal, measure when running at around 1200-1400 rpm.
It should be at max gap (~0,4mm) since dwell is 23 degrees at 8 cyl setting.

Edit: Measured the point gaps, they were at max as dwell meter shown with 23 degrees. Maybe a little bit more than 0.4mm on 2:3. I changed to 0.35mm on both the old way with feeler gauge. I'll see what the dwell meter will say about that

[BomberMann650]

Anyone remember the A.R.C. Ignition box?

Just saw one on ebay. https://m.ebay.com/itm/1974-79-Honda-CB550-four-CB-550-H253-1-a-r-c-ignition-system-ignitor-/292113340439?hash=item44034fd817%3Am%3AmUrIG-XkR5PcSM4DTHYpyPg&_trkparms=pageci%253A642de65c-9d9f-11e7-82ea-74dbd1801657%257Cparentrq%253A9ccedd5715e0ac8034e160dcfff8dd6c%257Ciid%253A2

[AirCanuck]

Anyone remember the A.R.C. Ignition box?

Just saw one on ebay. https://m.ebay.com/itm/1974-79-Honda-CB550-four-CB-550-H253-1-a-r-c-ignition-system-ignitor-/292113340439?hash=item44034fd817%3Am%3AmUrIG-XkR5PcSM4DTHYpyPg&_trkparms=pageci%253A642de65c-9d9f-11e7-82ea-74dbd1801657%257Cparentrq%253A9ccedd5715e0ac8034e160dcfff8dd6c%257Ciid%253A2

So this is an electric ignition? Anything special about this one?

[HondaMan]

I choosed both, Points AND Electronic ignition. Hondaman module
It got condensors (capacitors) today too. Were delivered with the point plate, NOS TEC
I have used it without most of the time. I have had some minor misfires now and then at higher rpm that might be the result of no condensors.

I checked ignition setting today with dwell meter and strobe lamp. Still spot on since  almost one week back!! I was sure that the setting should go bad when I moved point plate a little counterclockwise and then clockwise from my setting to see if dyno result will change. (It did not like more advance at higher rpm, a little bit later OK, but no big deal.
I'll have to adjust again this winter when I lift cam to re-torque the head just  for sure. Maybe I let another cam play around for a while...

Set ignition is a must for me anyway since I remove the ignition when timing the cam, degree wheel is mounted on the advancer.

Alright guys.  I'm biting the bullet of embarrassment.  What is dwell on this system?

The 'dwell' angle is the amount of time the points are closed in one revolution, measured in degrees.
But, cheap dwell meters will yield different readings from those often published here. If the dwell meter you have in use can first be calibrated to points-closed reading (zeroed) and then run, it will give an actual dwell. Most aren't that good, today, being just pulse-width measurement estimation gadgets. I have on old racing meter which IS accurate, but for the sake of not starting another 'oil thread'-like argument, I won't published what the real dwell numbers are from these bikes.
Instead, set the gap and timing to be spot-on for YOUR bike with YOUR dwell meter, and then remember that value, instead.

Thanks for the input Mark. I have a cheap automotive multimeter where dwell is one of the functions. I'll check the gap the old way to verify. I like the dwell meter when I'll get both points equal, measure when running at around 1200-1400 rpm.
It should be at max gap (~0,4mm) since dwell is 23 degrees at 8 cyl setting.

Edit: Measured the point gaps, they were at max as dwell meter shown with 23 degrees. Maybe a little bit more than 0.4mm on 2:3. I changed to 0.35mm on both the old way with feeler gauge. I'll see what the dwell meter will say about that

My old Borg-Warner racing (high performance) dwell meter shows my 750 at 44-46 degrees between 0.012" and 0.014" gap. That's where I usually run mine.

[HondaMan]

Anyone remember the A.R.C. Ignition box?

Just saw one on ebay. https://m.ebay.com/itm/1974-79-Honda-CB550-four-CB-550-H253-1-a-r-c-ignition-system-ignitor-/292113340439?hash=item44034fd817%3Am%3AmUrIG-XkR5PcSM4DTHYpyPg&_trkparms=pageci%253A642de65c-9d9f-11e7-82ea-74dbd1801657%257Cparentrq%253A9ccedd5715e0ac8034e160dcfff8dd6c%257Ciid%253A2

These were a dwell extender unit (one of many brands) that increased the closed-dwell time on car ignition systems. They worked like this:
the circuit is an SCR, triggered by a short time-delay circuit, which re-closes the ground side of the coil [some short time] after the points open. This reduces the arcing on teh points, making them last longer. While it is of no real value on the SOHC4 bikes, other than reducing the points arcing, they were of value on the family's grocery-getter with a big 8-cylinder engine because it improved the gas mileage about 10%-20% on average. Toyota incorporated them into their 4-cylinder engines, beginning with the 18RC series (2000 cc), calling them "igniter" boxes to avoid patent infringement problems with other companies of the day. If the box fails, most people only noticed that the points once again begin to burn normally: it was very rare for them to short out and die, as the SCR is about as reliable an electronic part as a 1911 pistol.

[PeWe]

.......
My old Borg-Warner racing (high performance) dwell meter shows my 750 at 44-46 degrees between 0.012" and 0.014" gap. That's where I usually run mine.

OK, that is the 0.3-0.35mm area.
Minimum gap will load ign coils more, right?
But need to be adjusted when points wear with reduced gap.

I'll see if the bike will run different with slightly less gap.

[DickL]

HEY Mark,
Ill have you know that my two 1911's are very reliable.

DICKL

[PeWe]

.......
My old Borg-Warner racing (high performance) dwell meter shows my 750 at 44-46 degrees between 0.012" and 0.014" gap. That's where I usually run mine.

OK, that is the 0.3-0.35mm area.
Minimum gap will load ign coils more, right?
But need to be adjusted when points wear with reduced gap.

I'll see if the bike will run different with slightly less gap.

Checked ignition today
My cheap auto multimeter with dwell function showed 24 degrees at 8 cyl setting. I had set the points to 0.35mm (0.01378") the old way with feeler gauge.

I have had problems at low rpms lately that I have blamed the open exhaust and cam combo.
During ignition setting with strobo lamp: Engine idled really smooth when the 3 point plate screws were loosened, erratic idle when tighten them. I could finally tighten them with OK idle after some attempts where F should align case mark correctly too.
I guess I witness the problem with point plate orientation that some use shims to center the plate properly.
I'm rather sure that this problem can be seen as carb problem and  a throttle synch will not help.

Another project then, add shims for correct plate alignment. If wrong, ignition is not possible to set correctly.
Erratic idle, rattling chains  which feels like typical CB750.... when I know better, typical wrong centered point plate. My point plate is a TEC.

[HondaMan]

.......
My old Borg-Warner racing (high performance) dwell meter shows my 750 at 44-46 degrees between 0.012" and 0.014" gap. That's where I usually run mine.

OK, that is the 0.3-0.35mm area.
Minimum gap will load ign coils more, right?
But need to be adjusted when points wear with reduced gap.

I'll see if the bike will run different with slightly less gap.

Checked ignition today
My cheap auto multimeter with dwell function showed 24 degrees at 8 cyl setting. I had set the points to 0.35mm (0.01378") the old way with feeler gauge.

I have had problems at low rpms lately that I have blamed the open exhaust and cam combo.
During ignition setting with strobo lamp: Engine idled really smooth when the 3 point plate screws were loosened, erratic idle when tighten them. I could finally tighten them with OK idle after some attempts where F should align case mark correctly too.
I guess I witness the problem with point plate orientation that some use shims to center the plate properly.
I'm rather sure that this problem can be seen as carb problem and  a throttle synch will not help.

Another project then, add shims for correct plate alignment. If wrong, ignition is not possible to set correctly.
Erratic idle, rattling chains  which feels like typical CB750.... when I know better, typical wrong centered point plate. My point plate is a TEC.

I see this sometimes, too. When I have seen it, I found that the 'foot' of one of the points sets was hitting the points cam at an angle, so only one corner of the 'foot' was pushing open the points. I fixed it by slightly bending the pivot shaft on the points (had to take them all apart for this, slow process!).

[HondaMan]

HEY Mark,
Ill have you know that my two 1911's are very reliable.

DICKL

For all steel-frame 1911 lovers:

Mine is all-steel: Springfield made mine one for just 18 months or so, and it is a wonder! It's a bushingless bull 3.75" bbl, still holds 3" group at 50 ft offhand. I get my father-in-law to bring out his 1944 MIL version every now and then, so we can compare. Oddly, they hold the same group! I don't know how that can be, but paper tells the story.

My next addition will (hopefully) be the ATI 4" with the threaded end. 
If not that, maybe a Baby Rock?

[DickL]

Good video. I like the Hickock ones. Im headed to the range. Taking my Ruger 1911, my Sprinfield Armory Desert Storm Commerative 1911 and a Windham Weaponary AR15.

Your video with Miculek inspired me.

[Deltarider]

Am I the only one that is shocked to see firearms so openly praised? What culture is that, where you can openly promote deadly weapons and where, on the other hand, if you would upload a vid of people just enjoying wonderful sex, you would be excluded rightaway. Strange, isn't? Think of it.

[PeWe]

.......
My old Borg-Warner racing (high performance) dwell meter shows my 750 at 44-46 degrees between 0.012" and 0.014" gap. That's where I usually run mine.

OK, that is the 0.3-0.35mm area.
Minimum gap will load ign coils more, right?
But need to be adjusted when points wear with reduced gap.

I'll see if the bike will run different with slightly less gap.

Checked ignition today
My cheap auto multimeter with dwell function showed 24 degrees at 8 cyl setting. I had set the points to 0.35mm (0.01378") the old way with feeler gauge.

I have had problems at low rpms lately that I have blamed the open exhaust and cam combo.
During ignition setting with strobo lamp: Engine idled really smooth when the 3 point plate screws were loosened, erratic idle when tighten them. I could finally tighten them with OK idle after some attempts where F should align case mark correctly too.
I guess I witness the problem with point plate orientation that some use shims to center the plate properly.
I'm rather sure that this problem can be seen as carb problem and  a throttle synch will not help.

Another project then, add shims for correct plate alignment. If wrong, ignition is not possible to set correctly.
Erratic idle, rattling chains  which feels like typical CB750.... when I know better, typical wrong centered point plate. My point plate is a TEC.

I see this sometimes, too. When I have seen it, I found that the 'foot' of one of the points sets was hitting the points cam at an angle, so only one corner of the 'foot' was pushing open the points. I fixed it by slightly bending the pivot shaft on the points (had to take them all apart for this, slow process!).

Thanks for your observations Mark, I'll check the points and how they have contact with the cam. I have new  spare TEC points if needed.

[Lostboy Steve]

Am I the only one that is shocked to see firearms so openly praised? What culture is that, where you can openly promote deadly weapons and where, on the other hand, if you would upload a vid of people just enjoying wonderful sex, you would be excluded rightaway. Strange, isn't? Think of it.

Apples and oranges. If it were a video of a gun shooting someone that would be a little different.

Yeeeeeehaw!

[calj737]

Am I the only one that is shocked to see firearms so openly praised? What culture is that, where you can openly promote deadly weapons and where, on the other hand, if you would upload a vid of people just enjoying wonderful sex, you would be excluded rightaway. Strange, isn't? Think of it.

Apples and oranges. If it were a video of a gun shooting someone that would be a little different.

Yeeeeeehaw!

And if it weren’t for all those wild guys with their 1911s and M1s, your butt would be speaking Deutsch 

[Tom in Newcastle......Ontario]

Am I the only one that is shocked to see firearms so openly praised? What culture is that, where you can openly promote deadly weapons and where, on the other hand, if you would upload a vid of people just enjoying wonderful sex, you would be excluded rightaway. Strange, isn't? Think of it.

No, not the only one,maybe one of the only that would speak up.........

[Terry in Australia]

.......
My old Borg-Warner racing (high performance) dwell meter shows my 750 at 44-46 degrees between 0.012" and 0.014" gap. That's where I usually run mine.

OK, that is the 0.3-0.35mm area.
Minimum gap will load ign coils more, right?
But need to be adjusted when points wear with reduced gap.

I'll see if the bike will run different with slightly less gap.

Checked ignition today
My cheap auto multimeter with dwell function showed 24 degrees at 8 cyl setting. I had set the points to 0.35mm (0.01378") the old way with feeler gauge.

I have had problems at low rpms lately that I have blamed the open exhaust and cam combo.
During ignition setting with strobo lamp: Engine idled really smooth when the 3 point plate screws were loosened, erratic idle when tighten them. I could finally tighten them with OK idle after some attempts where F should align case mark correctly too.
I guess I witness the problem with point plate orientation that some use shims to center the plate properly.
I'm rather sure that this problem can be seen as carb problem and  a throttle synch will not help.

Another project then, add shims for correct plate alignment. If wrong, ignition is not possible to set correctly.
Erratic idle, rattling chains  which feels like typical CB750.... when I know better, typical wrong centered point plate. My point plate is a TEC.

I see this sometimes, too. When I have seen it, I found that the 'foot' of one of the points sets was hitting the points cam at an angle, so only one corner of the 'foot' was pushing open the points. I fixed it by slightly bending the pivot shaft on the points (had to take them all apart for this, slow process!).

Thanks for your observations Mark, I'll check the points and how they have contact with the cam. I have new  spare TEC points if needed.

Just install an EI Per and get rid of that mechanical crap. Sure, it might be more expensive than points or fail after 30 or 40 years like Danny's Martek did, but by then you'll be too old to remember how much you paid for it!

[Deltarider]

And if it weren’t for all those wild guys with their 1911s and M1s, your butt would be speaking Deutsch 

Are you really that old? How can we ever thank you? BTW... I speak Dutch and German and French and English and Spanish. Besides, I wouldn't go that route if I were you. FYI, it's widely acknowledged that the Soviet Union and it's army made the biggest offer by far in WOII: 10.700.000 deads (military) and another 11.900.000 civilians but, hey, that doesn't make a good holywood film, now does it? BTW, did they ever teach you anything on those numbers when you were in highschool? Oh, btw, when the liberation started (finally) my father and grandpa were still encarcerated for their work in the resistance. What do you think, are they excused? Shall we leave it here or do you maybe wanna discuss those wild guys with their 1911s and M1s in 'Nam? I dont know about you but I suggest we leave it here.

[DickL]

Deltarider,
Your experience with sohc is greatly appreciated by me and your contributions to this board are immense. HOWEVER, I find your choice of avatars to be offensive as well as the video that you reccommend as being funny. I do not think it is appropriate. Generally, Americans would not think of offending any one from another country. We respect others choices and individualism here. Uour poitics are just that...they are our politics

Dickl

[Terry in Australia]

Blessed are the cheese makers!

[calj737]

Blessed are the cheese makers!

I'll have Brie on a warm baguette, please!