Topic: Thoughts about points

[Terry in Australia]

No worries mate, I'll look forward to it!

[scottly]

The Dyna I learned about from Hondaman.  IIRC it has a duty cycle of about 270 degrees out of 360.  Meaning each coil is powered 270/360 or about 75% of the time, this is more than a points cam allows the points to be closed, which is 190/360, or about 53%.  The difference is that the dyna feeds power to the coils 22% more than what the points cam dictates.
So, the dyna trigger device is actually 22% less efficient than the stock system. 

Even the stock system draws more than necessary to light the fire at lower RPMS, so it can still provide a decent spark at higher RPMs, where the TIME of dwell gets smaller, even with the same DEGREES of dwell. A coil has inductance, and requires a certain amount of time to saturate, or store a charge. A stock CB points ignition draws about 2.5 amps at idle, which decreases to about 1.5 amps in the higher RPM ranges.
My only point specific tip is to use an oil-stone, rather than a point file to dress the contact faces, as I've had much better results. I learned this trick about 40 years ago, after honing a lathe bit ground from a piece of high speed steel in a machining class.

[PeWe]

I choosed both, Points AND Electronic ignition. Hondaman module
It got condensors (capacitors) today too. Were delivered with the point plate, NOS TEC
I have used it without most of the time. I have had some minor misfires now and then at higher rpm that might be the result of no condensors.

I checked ignition setting today with dwell meter and strobe lamp. Still spot on since  almost one week back!! I was sure that the setting should go bad when I moved point plate a little counterclockwise and then clockwise from my setting to see if dyno result will change. (It did not like more advance at higher rpm, a little bit later OK, but no big deal.
I'll have to adjust again this winter when I lift cam to re-torque the head just  for sure. Maybe I let another cam play around for a while...

Set ignition is a must for me anyway since I remove the ignition when timing the cam, degree wheel is mounted on the advancer.

[AirCanuck]

I choosed both, Points AND Electronic ignition. Hondaman module
It got condensors (capacitors) today too. Were delivered with the point plate, NOS TEC
I have used it without most of the time. I have had some minor misfires now and then at higher rpm that might be the result of no condensors.

I checked ignition setting today with dwell meter and strobe lamp. Still spot on since  almost one week back!! I was sure that the setting should go bad when I moved point plate a little counterclockwise and then clockwise from my setting to see if dyno result will change. (It did not like more advance at higher rpm, a little bit later OK, but no big deal.
I'll have to adjust again this winter when I lift cam to re-torque the head just  for sure. Maybe I let another cam play around for a while...

Set ignition is a must for me anyway since I remove the ignition when timing the cam, degree wheel is mounted on the advancer.

Alright guys.  I'm biting the bullet of embarrassment.  What is dwell on this system?

[754]

Regarding post 65, I wrote in haste, as I wanted to go riding
What I really meant was a lot of them bikes  that are set up "better" than mine, owned by riders that are better prepared for road emergencies,  are not being ridden very far anyway.. that is what I meant.
 So rather than runa component , that will, end my holiday if it fails, I just keep grinning and riding these bikes with an oem style ignition.

[madmtnmotors]

I just keep grinning and riding these bikes with an oem style ignition.

FTFY 

I've been to Ohio and back multiple times (3000 miles round trip), North Carolina and back multiple times (1300 miles round trip), Savanah Georgia and back multiple times (500 miles round trip, one time was a day trip just for lunch), Valdosta Georgia and back multiple times (500 miles round trip), along with untold miles locally, all without having to check my (Dyna) points even once...

But I would have no reservations doing the same miles with a stock points and condensers set up. 

[754]

No doubtvtge e ignitions work well, and will continue to.
But what's the backup plan should it fail, 1000 miles from home. How will you get up and running what wil, it cost.  What timeframe do you think you need to implement such a fix.?
This is tt
He concern for my personal situation. 
Now in my case, add the fact that you are in a different country not allowed to work if you are stuck somewhere.. not helping the situation.

[AirCanuck]

Regarding post 65, I wrote in haste, as I wanted to go riding
What I really meant was a lot of them bikes  that are set up "better" than mine, owned by riders that are better prepared for road emergencies,  are not being ridden very far anyway.. that is what I meant.
 So rather than runa component , that will, end my holiday if it fails, I just keep grinning and riding these bikes with an oem style ignition.

Makes sense

[madmtnmotors]

But what's the backup plan should it fail, 1000 miles from home?

A spare Dyna or a loaded points plate in the saddlebag along with a dime store multimeter and a couple of JIS screwdrivers.. Either one would be tested, known good working condition, regardless of the ignition that is installed in the running bike. Would not venture more than a couple hundred miles from home without. 

Get your original points plate dialed in before installing a Dyna (or your e-ignition of choice) and you can use the original points plate as your backup plan. This is part of my bike's "First Aid Kit"

What timeframe do you think you need to implement such a fix.?

Twenty or thirty minutes, can be done on the shoulder of the road. 

[754]

 Your post makes a lot of sense.  Close to my line of thinking..

[Terry in Australia]

Ya know, in the 40 years that I've been riding, in thousands of miles across one of the least populated countries on earth, I've never had a breakdown caused by an ignition failure? I've had a tyre blow out and an engine seize which both required the bikes (both CB750's) to be towed to the nearest town (and in the case of the engine seizure, a train ride home) but I've never had an ignition let me down.

The only time I've seen an ignition fail was on the way back from the Bathurst Motorcycle TT in 1983, when one of the point arms on my mate Pete's new OEM points plate broke in half. If it wasn't for the fact that he made me carry my old points plate because he didn't trust my new Martek electronic ignition, he would have been stuffed, and his bike would have been towed home. When he got home, he bought a Martek too.

[madmtnmotors]

Ya know, in the 40 years that I've been riding, in thousands of miles across one of the least populated countries on earth, I've never had a breakdown caused by an ignition failure? I've had a tyre blow out and an engine seize which both required the bikes (both CB750's) to be towed to the nearest town (and in the case of the engine seizure, a train ride home) but I've never had an ignition let me down.

The only time I've seen an ignition fail was on the way back from the Bathurst Motorcycle TT in 1983, when one of the point arms on my mate Pete's new OEM points plate broke in half. If it wasn't for the fact that he made me carry my old points plate because he didn't trust my new Martek electronic ignition, he would have been stuffed, and his bike would have been towed home. When he got home, he bought a Martek too.

LOL, fate is definitely fickle! 

Better to have it and not need than to need it and not have it. 

Your post makes a lot of sense.  Close to my line of thinking..

What's that they say about "great minds"? 

[HondaMan]

I choosed both, Points AND Electronic ignition. Hondaman module
It got condensors (capacitors) today too. Were delivered with the point plate, NOS TEC
I have used it without most of the time. I have had some minor misfires now and then at higher rpm that might be the result of no condensors.

I checked ignition setting today with dwell meter and strobe lamp. Still spot on since  almost one week back!! I was sure that the setting should go bad when I moved point plate a little counterclockwise and then clockwise from my setting to see if dyno result will change. (It did not like more advance at higher rpm, a little bit later OK, but no big deal.
I'll have to adjust again this winter when I lift cam to re-torque the head just  for sure. Maybe I let another cam play around for a while...

Set ignition is a must for me anyway since I remove the ignition when timing the cam, degree wheel is mounted on the advancer.

Alright guys.  I'm biting the bullet of embarrassment.  What is dwell on this system?

The 'dwell' angle is the amount of time the points are closed in one revolution, measured in degrees.
But, cheap dwell meters will yield different readings from those often published here. If the dwell meter you have in use can first be calibrated to points-closed reading (zeroed) and then run, it will give an actual dwell. Most aren't that good, today, being just pulse-width measurement estimation gadgets. I have on old racing meter which IS accurate, but for the sake of not starting another 'oil thread'-like argument, I won't published what the real dwell numbers are from these bikes.
Instead, set the gap and timing to be spot-on for YOUR bike with YOUR dwell meter, and then remember that value, instead.

[TwoTired]

The Dyna I learned about from Hondaman.  IIRC it has a duty cycle of about 270 degrees out of 360.  Meaning each coil is powered 270/360 or about 75% of the time, this is more than a points cam allows the points to be closed, which is 190/360, or about 53%.  The difference is that the dyna feeds power to the coils 22% more than what the points cam dictates.
So, the dyna trigger device is actually 22% less efficient than the stock system. 

Even the stock system draws more than necessary to light the fire at lower RPMS, so it can still provide a decent spark at higher RPMs, where the TIME of dwell gets smaller, even with the same DEGREES of dwell. A coil has inductance, and requires a certain amount of time to saturate, or store a charge. A stock CB points ignition draws about 2.5 amps at idle, which decreases to about 1.5 amps in the higher RPM ranges.

I was trying to compare the points to the Dyna.  Dyna also has fixed dwell AFAIK, and will therefore draw more power at idle than at high RPM.  You saying the DYNA Dwell is dynamic relative to RPM?

So, while your point is certainly valid.  The DYNA is still a huge power hog by comparison.

Cheers,

[TwoTired]

Ya know, in the 40 years that I've been riding, in thousands of miles across one of the least populated countries on earth, I've never had a breakdown caused by an ignition failure? I've had a tyre blow out and an engine seize which both required the bikes (both CB750's) to be towed to the nearest town (and in the case of the engine seizure, a train ride home) but I've never had an ignition let me down.

Last month Bankerdanny's Martek quit on two cylinders during the reunion ride.
In desperation, he removed the cover to force the martek to cool more.  This kept the cylinders working.  We changed it back to a points system while he was here in AZ.  The rest of the ride back to IL was uneventful, regarding ignition, according to his reports.

Anything mankind makes can fail.  Electronic devices are no exception.

I've had the adjustment slip on a point set once while out riding.  Down two cylinders.  Limped home.  Had to replace the buggared screw head so it could be properly tightened.
The screw was significantly less expensive than any electronic ignition I've encountered.
The exorbitant prices have always kept me away.  Especially when the points I have just keep working.

Now, if the E ignition could deliver on HP or MPG increases, the expense might be amortizable.  Alas...

Cheers,

[Terry in Australia]

Well I wouldn't be too upset if I was Danny Lloyd, Martek stopped production of their ignitions 30 years ago, so I reckon he (and all of that bike's PO's) got their money's worth, whereas Pete was less than happy that his brand new OEM ignition sh1t itself before it'd done it's first 1000 miles, (and our local Honda dealership refused to replace it under warranty because he installed it) but like you say, anything can fail.

Cost-wise, I can buy a new electronic ignition for less than I just paid for a new Michelin rear tyre for my K2, so the cost really isn't an issue. Cheers, Terry.

[MRieck]

 After reading this entire post I gutted the ignition system on my Hayabusa and installed points......finally peace of mind not having to worry about pesky ECU's, Coil-on-Plugs, various sensors etc. Check this out.....after countless hours of development it runs perfect even with Daiichi points! In fact....better than with TEC pieces!! Talk about a grand slam home run!
 Next I will be removing the liquid cooling system.....God only knows what could go wrong there.

[AirCanuck]

After reading this entire post I gutted the ignition system on my Hayabusa and installed points......finally peace of mind not having to worry about pesky ECU's, Coil-on-Plugs, various sensors etc. Check this out.....after countless hours of development it runs perfect even with Daiichi points! In fact....better than with TEC pieces!! Talk about a grand slam home run!
 Next I will be removing the liquid cooling system.....God only knows what could go wrong there.

What were you running before you switched back to points?

[TwoTired]

After reading this entire post I gutted the ignition system on my Hayabusa and installed points......finally peace of mind not having to worry about pesky ECU's, Coil-on-Plugs, various sensors etc. Check this out.....after countless hours of development it runs perfect even with Daiichi points! In fact....better than with TEC pieces!! Talk about a grand slam home run!
 

Had me worried for a minute there, I thought you were converting to a Dyna.   Whew!
 

I didn't know the busa would fit the SOHC4 frame.  350 or 400?  Don't you have to remove a cam, too?
 

Cheers,

[BomberMann650]

After reading this entire post I gutted the ignition system on my Hayabusa and installed points......finally peace of mind not having to worry about pesky ECU's, Coil-on-Plugs, various sensors etc. Check this out.....after countless hours of development it runs perfect even with Daiichi points! In fact....better than with TEC pieces!! Talk about a grand slam home run!
 Next I will be removing the liquid cooling system.....God only knows what could go wrong there.

What were you running before you switched back to points?

Get rid of that gawd awful swing arm and monoshock too.  What that 'busa really needs is a pair of non-adjustable fixed spring shocks and a nice round tube swinger.

And for fcuk's sake put the forks on RIGHT SIDE UP!!!  Kids these days sheesh.

[754]

Well then , you are  nearly  ready for the  "Touring on a Budget Ride,"  leave your credit cards, cell phone, and GPS behind.  It will be fun..

[MRieck]

 You guys are funny. I figured some levity couldn't hurt.

[AirCanuck]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

[calj737]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

Much to learn, Grasshopper. Much to learn-

[AirCanuck]

All I can hear is the wooshing as jokes pass ove rmy head 

Much to learn, Grasshopper. Much to learn-

lucky I enjoy learning and am enthusiastic about the topic!