Author Topic: Thoughts about points  (Read 41249 times)

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Offline 754

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #250 on: October 06, 2017, 08:37:50 PM »
 There is a song and it goes,
Points all her own sitting way up high, way up firm and high.....
Now change that to hall effects pickups, and it just loses its meaning..

 I rest my case..
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #251 on: October 06, 2017, 10:34:20 PM »
POINTer Sisters sang well too, almost like a Pointer Honda. Again, things must have a point to have a meaning to work.
I hope I can take my points out for a ride this weekend ;) There is a risk that I have to go with my pointless car to a forest for picking mushrooms.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #252 on: October 07, 2017, 09:22:17 AM »
Can we please keep it to the POINT here?!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Gene

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #253 on: October 07, 2017, 10:06:24 AM »
Me and my Arrow, a song from "The Point" by Harry Nilsson.
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Online Don R

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #254 on: October 07, 2017, 10:23:33 AM »
 Oblio knows, he didn't have a point until he did. ^ I didn't know Arrow was a dog.

 I once had a set that would not be set no matter what, I tried a different points set and all is good. Same plate, I assumed it was just too worn.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #255 on: October 07, 2017, 11:16:13 AM »
.....when this thread have all facts, ideas, thoughts and experiences about points and also other ignition systems for a CB....
..... time for an oil thread to enlighten ourselves about what to feed our CB animals with.... :)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Gene

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #256 on: October 07, 2017, 11:29:07 AM »
.....when this thread have all facts, ideas, thoughts and experiences about points and also other ignition systems for a CB....
..... time for an oil thread to enlighten ourselves about what to feed our CB animals with.... :)

It's up to the reader to extrapolate the facts, opinions, and suggestions while sifting through our silliness. :D
*1973 CB750K3 (Bow)

AirCanuck

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #257 on: October 07, 2017, 02:14:35 PM »
.....when this thread have all facts, ideas, thoughts and experiences about points and also other ignition systems for a CB....
..... time for an oil thread to enlighten ourselves about what to feed our CB animals with.... :)

It's up to the reader to extrapolate the facts, opinions, and suggestions while sifting through our silliness. :D

Definitely a challenge for the uninitiated lol

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #258 on: October 07, 2017, 05:36:40 PM »
Do I smell beer?
:D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Online Don R

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #259 on: October 08, 2017, 11:08:08 PM »
 Well, since I contributed to the silliness, I'll add something usefull.
  Today I used a dwell meter for the first time on a 750 with success. It's an old sears almost new in the box tach dwell meter. I checked my previously set points on an evil running big bore K2 750. The numbers were 27-28* so I dialed back to 23* on both sets and re-set the timing. It did idle better although leaving a lot to be desired.

   I gave her a dose of fresh no alcohol gas with some techron carb cleaner in it, drained the carbs, changed to a set of used -7 plugs on a whim, changed out the two center plug caps since the outers already had new ones. At idle now, it does heat up all four pipes, that's a nice change. Tomorrow I'll see if I make it more than a block or two running on all four.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 11:11:04 PM by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #260 on: October 08, 2017, 11:21:21 PM »
 As far as the points vs electronic debate,
  I'm an old drag racer that remembers using a different set of plugs driving to the lanes, then put in the race plugs and run, go to the end of the track and swap back to the pit plugs and repeat. Since we've gone to MSD, I've run the same ngk's for two seasons and will change them this winter just because it seems right to do it rather than risk a failure.
  I run a way better carb (1150 holley) now and it was jetted on a dyno so that may be a big part of the difference.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #261 on: October 09, 2017, 02:47:21 AM »
This thread is a good thread with much experiences and thoughts. Fun with some ironic posts. Too boring without funny comments and facts only.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #262 on: October 09, 2017, 03:05:21 AM »
As far as the points vs electronic debate,
  I'm an old drag racer that remembers using a different set of plugs driving to the lanes, then put in the race plugs and run, go to the end of the track and swap back to the pit plugs and repeat. Since we've gone to MSD, I've run the same ngk's for two seasons and will change them this winter just because it seems right to do it rather than risk a failure.
  I run a way better carb (1150 holley) now and it was jetted on a dyno so that may be a big part of the difference.

Yeah, it's probably just a coincidence Don, but Ron (MCRider) and I were chatting via PM about our Yamaha FJR1300's on the weekend, both bikes were fitted with pretty basic electronic ignitions and non-iridium spark plugs from the factory, anyway, I told him that my bike (which has done 146000 miles without so much as a clutch replacement, gotta love modern-ish bikes for build quality) has done just over 35000 miles on it's current set of spark plugs, and Ron told me that up until his crashing his bike and writing it off, he'd done 22,000 miles without doing a plug change. I bought a new set of plugs for mine in 2016, but haven't gotten around to changing them yet, it starts at first press of the button and returns better than 50 MPG (imperial) so I haven't seen a need as yet? Cheers, Terry. ;D 
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #263 on: October 09, 2017, 04:56:10 AM »
Those bikes have Fuel injection right?
The Air/fuel ratio can be perfecty mapped for all throttle openings, rpms, no need of too rich pilot to be able to react on a sudden WOT without hesitation as a carburetor.

Last time I did a Dyno with my K6 the dyno guy showed me an A/F chart from a modern fuel injection bike, more or less a straight line within the perfect area.

CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #264 on: October 09, 2017, 01:54:27 PM »
Yeah mate, EFI is fantastic, my VFR750 is similar though, it's still on it's original plugs (according to the 72 year old PO) and it's done 40,000 miles, with 4 CV carbs. Not sure if they're iridium or not, I've never looked at them. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #265 on: October 23, 2017, 08:06:54 AM »
As far as the points vs electronic debate,
  I'm an old drag racer that remembers using a different set of plugs driving to the lanes, then put in the race plugs and run, go to the end of the track and swap back to the pit plugs and repeat.

It's funny but with the GTO I used to do this too, and re-timing the distributor after each run. I'd drive the car to the track, see what fuel is available, retime the distributor, change the plugs out for the specially gap-ed "race plugs", check it after every run, then at the end of the day I'd put the street plugs back in and usually retard the timing for the crappy jersey pump gas I would have to fill up with on the way home. If I couldn't get 101 octane at the track and had to make passes on 92 it was a completely different timing setup than if I could get the good stuff (most of the time I was advancing it because street fuels in the 90's were crap - just by different amounts). Checking after each run was a necessity because pontiac distributors like to walk under WOT, sometimes as much as 5 degrees during a run.

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #266 on: October 23, 2017, 06:25:46 PM »
One of the cool things about EFI is the ability to run lean, which makes the engines and plugs last longer. It goes richer for Start cycle on all EFI units, then switches to  match throttle requirements. I did something similar with my carb'd Fairmont Ford when I rebuilt it in 1995 (1 bbl Holley) with a re-cal, have now received over 375k miles from it. When a freeze plug cracked last winter and I pulled the head (thought it was a blown head gasket!) I was astonished to see NO ring ridge in the engine, whatsoever. Amazing how running it at 16:1 can do that...the valves are in perfect condition, too, and the temperature gauge runs half of what it did when at factory calibration. And the MPG went up from the factory 14 to 18 in town, and from 16 to 20+ on hiway, at the same time (and of course it climbs high mountains easier). I'm about to try this with my 750 this winter, switching to a leaner-burn setup to see how it does next season. I'm going to try for 16:1 above 2500 RPM (it needs more like 12:1 to start and idle well, though).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #267 on: October 24, 2017, 01:54:55 PM »
One of the cool things about EFI is the ability to run lean, which makes the engines and plugs last longer. It goes richer for Start cycle on all EFI units, then switches to  match throttle requirements. I did something similar with my carb'd Fairmont Ford when I rebuilt it in 1995 (1 bbl Holley) with a re-cal, have now received over 375k miles from it. When a freeze plug cracked last winter and I pulled the head (thought it was a blown head gasket!) I was astonished to see NO ring ridge in the engine, whatsoever. Amazing how running it at 16:1 can do that...the valves are in perfect condition, too, and the temperature gauge runs half of what it did when at factory calibration. And the MPG went up from the factory 14 to 18 in town, and from 16 to 20+ on hiway, at the same time (and of course it climbs high mountains easier). I'm about to try this with my 750 this winter, switching to a leaner-burn setup to see how it does next season. I'm going to try for 16:1 above 2500 RPM (it needs more like 12:1 to start and idle well, though).

you aren't worried about the barrier layer and burning a hole in the piston?

EFI's consistency is what made running leaner possible. Carbs are really crude as measuring and metering devices when you really think about them. Bringing this back to our points vs electronic spark that's the benefit - consistency over life of component that contributes to longevity.

My GTO ate through 2 packs of plugs a year, my EFI jeep has had the same plugs in it since 2005. My Dyna S CB750 has had the same plugs in it since 2009. I'd change them but why? they still work fine.
Maintenance Matters Most

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #268 on: October 24, 2017, 05:56:22 PM »
Here I was laughing to myself this week thinking this thread had gasped its last...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #269 on: October 26, 2017, 09:01:29 AM »
One of the cool things about EFI is the ability to run lean, which makes the engines and plugs last longer. It goes richer for Start cycle on all EFI units, then switches to  match throttle requirements. I did something similar with my carb'd Fairmont Ford when I rebuilt it in 1995 (1 bbl Holley) with a re-cal, have now received over 375k miles from it. When a freeze plug cracked last winter and I pulled the head (thought it was a blown head gasket!) I was astonished to see NO ring ridge in the engine, whatsoever. Amazing how running it at 16:1 can do that...the valves are in perfect condition, too, and the temperature gauge runs half of what it did when at factory calibration. And the MPG went up from the factory 14 to 18 in town, and from 16 to 20+ on hiway, at the same time (and of course it climbs high mountains easier). I'm about to try this with my 750 this winter, switching to a leaner-burn setup to see how it does next season. I'm going to try for 16:1 above 2500 RPM (it needs more like 12:1 to start and idle well, though).

you aren't worried about the barrier layer and burning a hole in the piston?

EFI's consistency is what made running leaner possible. Carbs are really crude as measuring and metering devices when you really think about them. Bringing this back to our points vs electronic spark that's the benefit - consistency over life of component that contributes to longevity.

My GTO ate through 2 packs of plugs a year, my EFI jeep has had the same plugs in it since 2005. My Dyna S CB750 has had the same plugs in it since 2009. I'd change them but why? they still work fine.

No, I'm not concerned about that, at least not like Honda Warranty was in the 1970s. The gas today is far more consistent than it was back then. We used to see stuff like bromide and lead accumulating on the plugs when rich, shorting the plugs entirely. Now, it is just the occasional overly rich mixture that collects carbon on them, to short the spark out. This stuff cleans off easily with a sandblast o even wire brush, in most cases. But, the slow burn speed of ethanol-laced and ethanol-accepting fuel mixes today acts as if it is higher octane when it is not, and if the carbs are set to normal 1970s mix rates (like 12:1 A/F below 2000 RPM), the plugs get wet during heavy traffic idling. If you don't then get a change to immediately blow them clean with a high RPM blast, they slowly foul with the carbon. It doesn't much matter which kind of ignition the bike has then: the wetness and carbon stay on the plug and foul the tips. A good example is my own commuting: if I stay on the freeways I can ride all summer on the same set of plugs (I change them at every season, clean them, and put the old set in the tail trunk for the next year), but if I get stuck on the surface streets in typical Denver traffic, it can idle 20 minutes on a 30-minute commute, and the plugs will foul after a few weeks of this riding. The idle circuit is easily adjusted to stop this with the air screw, set to 3/4 turn instead of 1 turn to lean it out, but the off-idle-to-2500 RPM range is too wet (5-to-20 MPH in 1st gear stuff) and this slowly loads the plugs up wet. Dropping the needle or lowering the float levels can help here, but then the mainjet must go up a bit for the midrange comp, and then you're pulling the carbs to do it. Painful stuff then! So, it becomes an off-season project, lest the nice days get away. :)

These engines can run at 20:1 A/F mixture with today's fuels, as they are knock-resistant in order to cope with auto EFI systems, which can be slow to respond to sudden driver's foot requests. This was not the case when they were first designed, so the carbs were set conservatively rich to prevent warranty claims: sparkplug replacements were cheap as compared to pistons. And yes, you can get more torque with richer mixtures, a racer's favorite carb tweak - but racers go to the track with boxes of sparkplugs handy!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #270 on: October 26, 2017, 12:02:27 PM »
The idle circuit is easily adjusted to stop this with the air screw, set to 3/4 turn instead of 1 turn to lean it out...
Here I'm lost. What bike are you referring to? I have airscrews on my carbs, but setting them to 3/4 turn instead of 1 turn would certainly enrichen the mixture and not lean it out.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:20:57 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline Gene

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #271 on: October 26, 2017, 01:00:14 PM »
The idle circuit is easily adjusted to stop this with the air screw, set to 3/4 turn instead of 1 turn to lean it out...
Here I'm lost. What bike are you referring to? I have airscrews on my carbs, but setting them to 3/4 turn instead of 1 turn would certainly enrichen the mixture and not lean it out.

Depends on the carb and which side the screw is on (air or engine)
*1973 CB750K3 (Bow)

Offline PeWe

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #272 on: October 26, 2017, 01:14:32 PM »
About air screws...like a paint gun, less air will bring less paint to the nossle and spray. I finally understood it when Hondaman explained it. The pilot circuit will work like a paint gun, more airflow, more fuel will flow here.

I got it verified on my carbs with fuel screws. I got similar bangs on throttle decelerations as my old Honda stock carbs with air screws wich I thought was too lean back in the days and closed the air screws.
I finally understood that the bangs I heard was too rich mixture, closed the fuel screws a little and fixed it. Rich smelling idle was another thing.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #273 on: October 26, 2017, 01:23:54 PM »
This is an airscrew and I know what it does ...
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Thoughts about points
« Reply #274 on: October 26, 2017, 01:28:30 PM »
... and this is a pilot screw (found engine side) which meters the already mixed air/fuel. That's why I asked which bike Hondaman referred to,
CB500K2-ED Excel black
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