Topic: Bad news from Las Vegas

[Duke McDukiedook]

I guess this is the blood that must be shed to refresh the tree of liberty, or something...

[carnivorous chicken]

A firearm is an inanimate object, nothing more. They sit about, minding their own business until someone picks them up and chooses to operate them. Why blame the tool? If that is your logic, then;

We should ban all alcohol because people drink and drive and kill people.
We should ban all alcohol because people become addicted to it and suffer medically.
We should limit all privately owned vehicles to the State speed limits, not an MPH more since speed contributes to environmental issues, and property damage, and personal injury and crime.
We should require a background check for anyone wishing to purchase or make or sell a knife.
We should require a background check for anyone wishing to purchase a hammer.
We should require a background check, personality test, and financial review for anyone wishing to become a parent (Lord knows, there are too many rotten ones out there and perhaps a regulatory commission might wean them out).
We should suspend the (or at least amend) the 4th amendment to allow the police to perform at-will, no discretion or justification search and seizure upon persons they think might be a danger to society.

You want to sign up for these things? Certainly any reasonable person can see the merit in these new regulations thinning the herd of violent acts. And perhaps the 1st amendment needs to be tweaked to prohibit uncomfortable, politically incorrect speech (written, spoken, or frosted on a cake) so that it does not provoke violence. And let’s tear down all monuments, flags, historical references, and rename all buildings, currency, stamps, streets, schools, and libraries that reference someone who did anything unpopular in their life.

There’s your slippery slope...

Yes, I'm ranting and whining and grapevining.

Not sure how I am spreading rumors (grapevining) but a gun is designed to kill first and foremost. This is the kind of knee-jerk ridiculous argumentation that prevents any possible rational discussion of the issue. It's going to lead to a slippery slope and complete authoritarian dictatorship in the US! No -- we are talking only about firearms, let's keep the discussion there.

Looking at isolated terrorist attacks -- a different kind of problem -- in Spain, England, France or any other country isn't the same as looking at mass shootings in those countries. But since you brought them up, what are the incidents and death tolls and frequency of mass shootings in those countries, since that is what we are supposed to be talking about?

Nobody is saying the guy in Las Vegas used an automatic weapon. He used a device to make a semi-automatic weapon fire similarly to an automatic weapon.

Remind me again, since you've read the Second Amendment, what well regulated militias did these guys belong to?

[Lostboy Steve]

People kill people. It really doesn't matter what tool they use. Why is THAT so hard to understand? This guy could have used a helicopter and napalm. With an ied thrown out the window he probably could have killed and maimed even more people. He was a millionaire, there isn't much money can't buy, except sanity, and happiness. There is no regulation to stop this. We should really just make murder illegal, that would solve all of our problems.


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[carnivorous chicken]

But why limit your knee jerk reaction to mass murder to firearms? That’s the hypocrisy. Since most of Europe has very strict firearm laws for private citizens, evil doers still find methods for murder. That’s the rational discussion. I’m not opposed to common sense legislation or background checks at all. But WHAT is it that you’re proposing that would have prevented this? Simple question that you seem unable to answer.

Read my previous posts.

And how is this incident any different than a terrorist action? Murder is murder when the victims are all nameless, innocent victims.

Absence of a discernable ideological driver, for one, at least so far. Absence of links to any kind of organization. Absence of a discernable political goal. But say you're right -- it's terrorism. When an act of terror occurs, the US responds. Currently, one of those responses is to implement a ban on people coming in from countries from which terrorists originate, supposedly. If you think that's reasonable, how about a ban on all white American men from owning firearms, because they kill far more Americans that foreign terrorists do?

Remind me again of domestic mass shootings in those European countries (since that's the topic), and the well regulated militias American perpetrators have belonged to.

Honestly, this is ridiculous. Best of luck.

[BomberMann650]

Cal has a point.
The wickedness within the heart of man has existed since time immemorial.
Yet we deny its presence so fervently.  Even when something so tragic and obvious forces our attention to it.  Yet we still cannot bear ourselves to accept this darker side of the human psyché. 

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I don't believe that all guns need to be banned.  If you live in a rural, sparcely populated area, a rifle is a good thing to have. 

That said, here's some food for thought and civil discussion.  I am not calling out anyone as wrong.

The guns don't kill people, people kill people rhetoric has its limits with respect to:
- chemical and/or biological weapons
- certain explosive compounds
- nuclear weapons.

These types of weapons, without humans, do not kill other humans. So WHY do we restrict such weapons?  Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Is it the danger of inherent killing power if placed in the wrong hands?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

[madmtnmotors]

Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

I have asked this question as well. A lot of the discussion has been about "assault rifles", but what about an RPG? Isn't that just a rifle with a bigger, albeit explosive, bullet? What about a tank?

A tank would be cool...

[Lostboy Steve]

I don't believe that all guns need to be banned.  If you live in a rural, sparcely populated area, a rifle is a good thing to have. 

That said, here's some food for thought and civil discussion.  I am not calling out anyone as wrong.

The guns don't kill people, people kill people rhetoric has its limits with respect to:
- chemical and/or biological weapons
- certain explosive compounds
- nuclear weapons.

These types of weapons, without humans, do not kill other humans. So WHY do we restrict such weapons?  Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Is it the danger of inherent killing power if placed in the wrong hands?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

The chemicals and other compounds needed for those are well controlled because they can be unstable in some circumstances. If we were talking about radioactive ray guns, I'd be on board with you.




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[Lostboy Steve]

Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

I have asked this question as well. A lot of the discussion has been about "assault rifles", but what about an RPG? Isn't that just a rifle with a bigger, albeit explosive, bullet? What about a tank?

A tank would be cool...

I've been known to build pretty impressive potato cannons back some time ago.


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[Lostboy Steve]

Having lived in NJ my whole life, I can tell you that a lot of gun laws here make more upstanding citizens criminals overnight than they do limit any sort of tragedy like was had in Vegas. We have the strictest gun laws in the nation and there are still everyday shootings.


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[Duke McDukiedook]

I think everyone that wants them should have unfettered access to nuclear weapons or any kind of weapon they wish if they have the moolah.
It is unuhmericun to say you can't. 

[BomberMann650]

I think everyone that wants them should have unfettered access to nuclear weapons or any kind of weapon they wish if they have the moolah.
It is unuhmericun to say you can't. 

There are some Hanaford workers that may beg to differ

[Davez134]

Back to the beginning original topic, I returned to work today and 2 of my coworkers were off duty in the middle of the crowd in front of the stage. To hear their accounts of what happened was absolutely disturbing and sad. After getting their family and friends to a supposed safer place (nobody had any idea where the shots were coming from and thought they were surrounded by gunfire) they ran back in to drag those out who were down/injured. I'm so proud of the people I work with, as this is the type of character I am surrounded with daily. I knew this would turn into a gun control thing. This is a society issue where a crazy psychopath killed and affected the lives of hundreds of people. Crazy to hear what was going through the minds of those that were there. I wish I could have been there to help as well, but was ignorantly passed out in bed at 8:30 PM just 5 miles away while all this was going down

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Back to the beginning original topic, I returned to work today and 2 of my coworkers were off duty in the middle of the crowd in front of the stage. To hear their accounts of what happened was absolutely disturbing and sad. After getting their family and friends to a supposed safer place (nobody had any idea where the shots were coming from and thought they were surrounded by gunfire) they ran back in to drag those out who were down/injured. I'm so proud of the people I work with, as this is the type of character I am surrounded with daily. I knew this would turn into a gun control thing. This is a society issue where a crazy psychopath killed and affected the lives of hundreds of people. Crazy to hear what was going through the minds of those that were there. I wish I could have been there to help as well, but was ignorantly passed out in bed at 8:30 PM just 5 miles away while all this was going down

And we lost sight in the original post, Dave.  The bravery of your off-duty coworkers cannot be understated.  To run back into a situation putting your life at risk to save others is the definition of heroic.  How truly selfless.

[Gene]

Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

A tank would be cool...

A guy in San Diego some years back swiped one and went on a mini-rampage with it. No live fire but he crushed a few vehicles.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

A tank would be cool...

A guy in San Diego some years back swiped one and went on a mini-rampage with it. No live fire but he crushed a few vehicles.

He ended up getting it caught on the concrete center divider of the freeway close to the Mexico border. The CHP opened up the hatch and fired into tank, killing him.

[754]

When the crap comes down, a few people will always help and do what they can do ..without hesitation..
 And others just lose their freaking heads..I mean just sometimes cant even help themselves.

I was sure grateful that there were ex medics and people used to serious injuries around when I almost lost my leg in Sturgis..

[Stev-o]

I don't believe that all guns need to be banned.

Even it they did ban ALL guns, do you think everyone is going to go to their local cop shop and turn em in? No way, I wouldnt and I am a law abiding citizen for the most part [I'm a speeder, big deal]

It's too late, I do not see a solution. Just like the ol' saying:

"If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"

[Gene]

Where is the line drawn as to which types of weapons?  Where should the line be drawn if at all?

A tank would be cool...

A guy in San Diego some years back swiped one and went on a mini-rampage with it. No live fire but he crushed a few vehicles.

He ended up getting it caught on the concrete center divider of the freeway close to the Mexico border. The CHP opened up the hatch and fired into tank, killing him.

Yeah, just a single shot. Dude wouldn't walk away from the controls.

[ekpent]

In case you did not ever see the tank story

[Terry in Australia]

My condolences to the victims, families and friends of this horrible act. I read that the shooter's father was once on the FBI's "10 Most Wanted" list and was diagnosed as a psychopath, so I guess it's true that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Back in the day before we banned ownership of military style weapons, we had 3 gun massacres. I knew a guy who was a prison guard where one of the mass killers still resides (no capital punishment here, sadly) and he told me that when the last mass shooting occurred (21 years ago, 35 killed) the prisoner who had killed 7 in our first mass shooting went berserk for several days  because his "record" had been broken. 

These horrific events will continue to occur of course, and I can't help but wonder how many other psychopaths are planning something even bigger, with much greater casualty rates. I think a tank would be an excellent choice of daily transport. Cheers, Terry.

[eigenvector]

I rarely like chiming in on these threads - generally they go no where.

But here is an article by the Atlantic that I found very interesting.
I myself am very pro-2nd Amendment, having been a competitive rifle shooter.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/whats-the-solution-to-gun-violence/462537/

The part I found interesting was the absolute cratering of violence, ALL violence statistics over the past 20 years or so.  I believe the media is largely responsible here for making a problem, and it is a problem, into one of exaggerated proportions.  I don't watch or listen to the news anymore - I am not a fan of politics.

[BomberMann650]

The AR is basically the Toyota Hilux of the rifle world.
You can bolt as many accessories you want on the thing.
But it's still powered by a comparatively small package.

[Davez134]

When the crap comes down, a few people will always help and do what they can do ..without hesitation..
 And others just lose their freaking heads..I mean just sometimes cant even help themselves.

I was sure grateful that there were ex medics and people used to serious injuries around when I almost lost my leg in Sturgis..

That's why, I believe, most people that stay around and help are either police/fire/military. We are just more conditioned to seeing horrible stuff so maybe that's why our heads are more clear. But many civilians did help out by piling people in their vehicles and dropping off at hospitals.

[BomberMann650]

FBI releases evidence of possible secondary target @ Life is Beautiful Concert w/ Chance the Rapper.
They are now investigating possibility that this was organized by a group of people.