Author Topic: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system  (Read 4280 times)

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Offline cshanek

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Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« on: October 04, 2017, 04:26:56 PM »
Greetings SOHC friends,

I have a 73 CB500 that I have put a lot of time and effort into (see attached) that has been giving me battery issues. I couldn't start my bike with the starter switch due to what I assumed was a crappy battery after testing everything else. I took the battery in to an auto parts store, they tested, it, told me it was fine, though it was only putting out 8v, they charged it to about 12.7 v I think, and sent me on my way (apparently my trickle charger thought the battery was an 8v so wouldn't charge it anymore). I headed home with optimism, put the battery in, hit the starter butting and it turned over for about 2 seconds before going back to the familiar grind. So I tested just about everything else I could think of again, and eventually went back to the store for a new battery. They could not find the original battery I had been using, but they did find one of a shelf, that was slightly smaller, and had the poles in the correct location/orientation. So I filled it up, charged it overnight, and headed out for a ride the next day (she seemed to be fine then). About 5 minutes into my ride I just lost power and began coasting. I pulled over to try to start the bike, and I had next to no power. So now on to the questions:

  • What could possibly drain a brand new fully charged battery in 5 minutes?
  • How do I test my rectifier and or alternator to make sure they are working
  • Should I worry that the battery the unsure Autozone employee gave me is the problem? I was told if it fired up, the battery is fine.
  • Shouldn't something be running hot from all of that discharge?
  • Somewhat related, should I bring my batteries in over the winter or hook up the trickle charger every few days to maintain them and prolong their life?

Two things of note here:
  • I have an aftermarket headlamp that *could* be causing problems though it seems to just work)
  • The rectifier is new, and everything actually worked well before (had to rebuild bike after paint job)
  • I notice when my battery is a little low, and I hit the start button, the headlamp dims a little


« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 08:24:37 AM by cshanek »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 04:52:51 AM »
Quote
5.Somewhat related, should I bring my batteries in over the winter or hook up the trickle charger every few days to maintain them and prolong their life?
Once every 5-6 weeks is enough. A charged battery is best kept in a cool place like a barn or garage to slow down the chemical proces that's going on in the battery. By doing so my battery lasted 8 years.
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Offline cshanek

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2017, 08:19:45 AM »
It seems that over winter here (Colorado Springs), we can get down below 0 F a few times a year, and it just destroys my batteries. I moved here about 7 years ago from San Antonio, where my batteries seemed to do a lot better. Some of the locals just advised bringing them into the house for the winter.

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 10:47:49 AM »
Have you checked the voltage drop during start since the store tested it?

Offline Gene

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2017, 12:24:44 PM »
When you switched out your headlight - all connections the same? Or, is it pulling a lot more power now?
*1973 CB750K3 (Bow)

Offline nuwonder

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2017, 01:10:32 PM »
What kind of headlight bulb you're running in that aftermarket light? Some halogen ones might draw too much juice.

Offline cshanek

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 03:03:26 PM »
Have you checked the voltage drop during start since the store tested it?

The store tested it, said it was fine, and it wouldn't even turn over, so I went back in and got a new battery. I charged it, and then my bike started right up as if there was no problem. After riding it around for a few minutes I stalled out and was dead. I have not tested it since (I actually recharged the battery). I can certainly test it over a few days to see if I am losing power.

Offline Sprocket75

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 03:14:12 PM »
-Have you tested it with a "known" good battery?
-Have you checked it with a volt meter?
-Have you validated that you have the correct output from the stator wires while the bike is/was running?
-What is the voltage before the reg/rectifier?
-What is the voltage after the reg/rectifier?
-Try completely disconnecting your headlight.
-What you are describing sounds like your stator is either not putting out the correct voltage or your regulator/rectifier is not passing the correct voltage through
-It sounds like your bike is running off of the battery alone, thus discharging quickly as you ride...
Just my two cents, but I had the very same issue on my 550. Turned out to be a bad stator. Replaced it and all was well again...

TwoTired, a member here, once gave me a really good checklist to completely and thoroughly go through the charging system. It was a tremendous help. Try a search here to see if you can find it, otherwise I will look through previous posts to see if I can locate it.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 03:42:03 PM »
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
    • What could possibly drain a brand new fully charged battery in 5 minutes?
    High system loads or low capacity battery.
    • How do I test my rectifier and or alternator to make sure they are working
    See prior post.
    • Should I worry that the battery the unsure Autozone employee gave me is the problem? I was told if it fired up, the battery is fine.

    • Shouldn't something be running hot from all of that discharge?
    Depends on battery capacity/charge level.

    • Somewhat related, should I bring my batteries in over the winter or hook up the trickle charger every few days to maintain them and prolong their life?
    Cooler temps actually prolong battery life, due to slower chemical activity.
    However, some chargers don't compensate for the lower voltage a cold battery achieves and overcharges it.  I don't know of many (can't think of any) trickle or maintenance chargers that do this anymore.  So, you can't just leave them connected overwinter. However, the bike's stock regulator actually does do the temperature compensation adjustment.


    Two things of note here:
    • I have an aftermarket headlamp that *could* be causing problems though it seems to just work)
    Find out its wattage rating.  Stock is 40/50, I think.  Higher draws can out draw alternator output at idle speeds, which is only 30-40% of max output when its revved up.
    • The rectifier is new, and everything actually worked well before (had to rebuild bike after paint job)

    Did you scrape the paint off where the battery NEG connects to frame, and/or where the wire harness green wires attach to frame?

    [/list]
    [li]I notice when my battery is a little low, and I hit the start button, the headlamp dims a little[/li]
    [/list]
    The bike came stock with a headlight switch...which you are supposed to turn off during starting operations.
    Later models integrated a function in the starter button to turn off the headlight during e-start.
    To keep the voltage up for starting, reduce system loads.  Battery won't sag its voltage as far.
    Starter loads are 5 or more times the standard electrical load for the bike's systems.
    Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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    Offline Deltarider

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #10 on: October 06, 2017, 12:27:14 AM »
    The only thing I can add to TT's 'Charging system methodical verification checks' is, if you happen to have an analogue Voltmeter, I'd prefer it over a digital one with the engine running. The needle dampens spikes where digital meters sometimes, supposedly due to some inbuilt 'hold' program, can present funny readings. Or am I the only one that has witnessed this?
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    Offline AndyH

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #11 on: October 06, 2017, 01:51:29 AM »
    The only thing I can add to TT's 'Charging system methodical verification checks' is, if you happen to have an analogue Voltmeter, I'd prefer it over a digital one with the engine running. The needle dampens spikes where digital meters sometimes, supposedly due to some inbuilt 'hold' program, can present funny readings. Or am I the only one that has witnessed this?

    Agree.  Many's the time I've reverted to my very old analogue multimeter when wanting to observe non-step changes in voltage or current.  Back in the early days of our SOHC4s, digital stuff was mainly a future event!!  ;)
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    Offline TwoTired

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #12 on: October 06, 2017, 03:00:55 AM »
    I'm not opposed to analog meters.  But, unless you have an expanded scale type, it is tough to differentiate between 12.5 and 12.6 v.  I think that differentiation is a desireable benefit.

    Yes, some digital meters have aliasing due to slots in the sampling rate, and/or the display update time cycles which either make it blind to transient spikes, or focus on the spikes due to synchronous sampling intervals.
    On the other hand, analog meters won't inform of a noisy power line due to the slugish meter movement averaging the measurement.

    Always best to know tool capabilities and appropriate application.

    Cheers,
    Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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    Offline jamesk

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 03:24:23 PM »
    This is really good info, guys.  Thanks for posting all this.

    Offline Sprocket75

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #14 on: October 08, 2017, 07:04:15 PM »
    Were you able to resolve this CShanek?
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    Offline cshanek

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 07:03:14 PM »
    I have not even had time to start yet. I am working on an even more frustrating electrical issues with my 76 750. As this point I am tired of #$%*ing around and I will probably just move on with my life and find somewhere to take it.

    I will post updates when I get to un-#$%*ing the 500.

    Offline HondaMan

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #16 on: October 09, 2017, 07:15:29 PM »
    I have not even had time to start yet. I am working on an even more frustrating electrical issues with my 76 750. As this point I am tired of #$%*ing around and I will probably just move on with my life and find somewhere to take it.

    I will post updates when I get to un-#$%*ing the 500.

    Which 750 is it?
    And, what are the troubles? Many of them simply have bad fuseholders, because the chromate plating on the clips is now falling off, which heats up the fuses and melts them. Then it looks like it "blew" a fuse.
    See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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    Offline cshanek

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #17 on: October 09, 2017, 07:25:54 PM »
    The situation/progress/insanity/headache was posted here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168680.0.html

    Offline Gene

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #18 on: October 09, 2017, 07:28:52 PM »
    Trust NO ONE else with your bike, cshanek. I know it's frustrating, I've been there and made that mistake. If you must, you must, but I would advise against it. This forum has more info than most garages and will actually help instead of throw a band-aid on it. Maddening as it may be, sometimes it just takes time.
    *1973 CB750K3 (Bow)

    Offline cshanek

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    Re: Issues with 73 CB500 battery/charging system
    « Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 07:33:45 PM »
    Yeah that is the battle I am fighting. So one of the reasons I am not riding my bike, is because I wanted new rings and the header milled while I was recovering from a knee surgery a couple of years back. I took it to a dude in town who said he could do it for about 6 hundred (dropped it off in November, so I was hoping it would be done by March, when I would be recovered). He did not even start it until April, lost my gasket kit, lost other #$%*, had it laying on some other bike in his garage at some point, left it out in the snow, and said it would cost him $1600 to put everything back together (I also got the swing arm and rims powder coated). I basically got it back in pieces with missing parts and now foobar carbs (which I have since rebuilt). I had to threaten him to get my bike back (about a year after I dropped it off) and I have not ridden it outside of my neighborhood since (going on 2 years).