Topic: Sovereign Citizens

[vfourfreak]

I've been a bit unwell recently so to occupy myself I've spent rather more time than is healthy on Youtube learning weird things. I've stumbled for the first time upon the "Sovereign Citizen"phenomenon.
Goodness, are all the things the bang on about actually real ? Like speeding is not illegal in Texas unless you are driving a commercial vehicle or you can charge a law enforcement office for "contracting" with you ? Why for example do they insist they only have to open their car window by about one inch, yet routinely end up getting their windows smashed after a copper spends 20 minutes insisting they must exit their car.
Where do their "notions" come from ? Are they correct ? Are they nuts ?

Kev

[BomberMann650]

It's a complex philosophy.
Starts with the idea that country of birth is a genetic lottery ticket.
Since no one ever consented to being born, societal standards are moot.
It's one big cosmic joke.  Nothing is real and everything is permitted.

[TwoTired]

Mankind is not a rational animal.  They are rationalizing animals.

With freedom comes abuses. Society wrestles with prevention vs. correction.  Both restrict freedoms and limit opportunities.  Good or bad depends on viewpoint (rationalizing).

Subterfuge is fairly common in the entire human population to one degree or another.  Quite prominent in media outlets, imo.
It will end with genetic code mastery/manipulation by the elite or extinction of Homo-Sapiens.   Possibly both at the same time.

Have a nice day!   

[Gene]

Once had a "sovereign Citizen" try to pay his invoice with a hand-written note saying he was basically good for it. "It's Legit! A real method of payment!" Um, no . . . no it's not, sir. Sorry to piss on your parade.

[carnivorous chicken]

The Sovereign Citizen movement is considered by US law enforcement to be the most serious threat in the US, including Islamist extremist terrorism. I was on a research project that covered extremism and we looked at the Sovereign Citizen movement in the US as a research project. We were funded by the ONR and they were the first to warn us off of it, along with other people in our research community. As soon as you start asking questions or looking into them, you become a target. And if you look at enough videos of them you'll soon find that these are the guys who sometimes get pulled over, get out of their cars and open fire, killing cops. They rely on misinformation and weird interpretations of the Constitution and other laws to claim they don't have to pay taxes, have a driver's license, obey the rules of the road, pay child support if ordered by a court, etc. 

[Ichiban 4]

Since this is essentially a Honda/Japanese bike forum..I'm married to Japanese myself..and have practiced various forms of Buddhism (Zen and Tibetan mainly) since the 1970's..figured I could weigh-in on this one.

Nothing is permanent.  Everything changes.  And what we take for 'sovereignty' is but another of ego's illusions borne from attachment and a misperceived notion of personal identity/solidity.

When we all learn to live without strong expectations of gain (or loss) or being right versus wrong..then such concerns such as sovereignty..left versus right..or good versus bad..become mainly 'grist-for-the-mill'..or in other words..stuff that we can process and find solutions to..without so much hassle.  This can be done..as shown by the 2500 year old teachings of Buddha..through meditation practice largely.

Not proselytizing on this perspective here..just presenting an alternative to what most of us have concerns about in the West..which took me 45 years..and coming out of/processing my experiences from the Viet Nam war to appreciate.

Peace brothers and sisters..

Ichi

[BobbyR]

They reject Federal Authority in all things. They believe the Sheriff is the only valid law enforcement officer since they are elected in their State. They file false liens against judges and police to screw up their credit ratings. They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal. Some use this sovereign status to try to game the system. They reject the 14th amendment to the Constitution as invalid.Some try to renounce their US  citizenship and claim to be Citizens of a particular State.

It is a movement not confined to the US. They are active in Canada and Australia.   

[Gene]

They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal.

I was very much behind these same ideas as a younger, irresponsible man - at least I grew out of it.

[BomberMann650]

They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal.

I was very much behind these same ideas as a younger, irresponsible man - at least I grew out of it.

Or rather; You grew to fit the statist mould

Washington’s vehicle licensing practices are vomit inducing.  Especially their new Off-road vehicle standards.  A buddy spent $500 “licensing” his two sons kx80’s.  He says he told the clerk “AWWW COME ON!  THESE ARE KIDS TOYS!”

[Gene]

They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal.

I was very much behind these same ideas as a younger, irresponsible man - at least I grew out of it.

Or rather; You grew to fit the statist mould

Yeah - but the mould has better health care.

And, BTW, for the record, there is a difference between this Sovereign Citizens movement and Anarchists. Frankly, I prefer the Anarchists, what few are left.

[BomberMann650]

They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal.

I was very much behind these same ideas as a younger, irresponsible man - at least I grew out of it.

Or rather; You grew to fit the statist mould

Yeah - but the mould has better health care.

And, BTW, for the record, there is a difference between this Sovereign Citizens movement and Anarchists. Frankly, I prefer the Anarchists, what few are left.

There may still be hope gene.

[BomberMann650]

Once watched a courtroom video of a man trying to invoke maritime law - asserting that his home is the sea.  While the judge didn’t argue, he still had to pay the fine for a misdeed done while he was on shore leave

[vfourfreak]

They never "drive" , they "travel"

They don't have a "car", it's a "vessel"

They don't have a "name", it's an "appellation"

They don't answer questions, but ask a lot of them.

They don't have a driver's licence because it was suspended. Cue window getting smashed, dragging from car and the sound of Tzzzzzzzt

Endless fun for a rainy evening.

Kev

[Lostboy Steve]

They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal.

I was very much behind these same ideas as a younger, irresponsible man - at least I grew out of it.

Or rather; You grew to fit the statist mould

Washington’s vehicle licensing practices are vomit inducing.  Especially their new Off-road vehicle standards.  A buddy spent $500 “licensing” his two sons kx80’s.  He says he told the clerk “AWWW COME ON!  THESE ARE KIDS TOYS!”

At least you have "off-road vehicle standards". In NJ they call those "illegal" like everything else.


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[BomberMann650]

They feel income taxes, car registrations, driver licenses and too many things to list here are illegal.

I was very much behind these same ideas as a younger, irresponsible man - at least I grew out of it.

Or rather; You grew to fit the statist mould

Washington’s vehicle licensing practices are vomit inducing.  Especially their new Off-road vehicle standards.  A buddy spent $500 “licensing” his two sons kx80’s.  He says he told the clerk “AWWW COME ON!  THESE ARE KIDS TOYS!”

At least you have "off-road vehicle standards". In NJ they call those "illegal" like everything else.

Wow, nj killin the action sports industry.
No wonder the kids are bored.

[scunny]

Here in my little slice of paradise, we have sovereign claimers, the law doesn't apply to them, they are against laws, taxes etc, etc, but they all seem to be on a benefit of some sort, how does that work ?(they don't)
Our public off road facility's require your vehicle to be road legal, no one is, but if you make an arsehole of yourself, then they will do something about it. good rule in my book.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, I love how most of these anti-government hoopleheads are on some type of government support (disability usually). Seemed most of the Bundy-boobs were on the gubment disability cheese train. 

[BomberMann650]

Sigh.  I hope one day to live in a world where state assistance is not stigmatized.  It’s easy for the well-to-do to poo-poo the poor.  Whilst neglecting that they themselves are totally codependent on someone for their livelihoods too. 

[carnivorous chicken]

Yeah, I love how most of these anti-government hoopleheads are on some type of government support (disability usually). Seemed most of the Bundy-boobs were on the gubment disability cheese train. 

In the past two or three years there have been analyses done that prove just that: a strong correlation between a population's desire to end government assistance (and leaning right) and disproportionate use of state funds. For example, in Washington state the regions generally east of the mountains decry government spending on social programs, yet they rely disproportionately on government funds from taxes collected in progressive big cities west of the Cascades such as Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia and Vancouver, where populations are bigger, the economy is centered, and where fewer funds are distributed, proportionately.

Keep the government's hands off of my Medicaid!

[Duke McDukiedook]

Sigh.  I hope one day to live in a world where state assistance is not stigmatized.  It’s easy for the well-to-do to poo-poo the poor.  Whilst neglecting that they themselves are totally codependent on someone for their livelihoods too.

I have no qualms with people that legitimately need temporary or permanent government aid. Just don't #$%* too much on the hand that feeds ya on a daily basis. It might get poopy.

[J-Rod10]

Sigh.  I hope one day to live in a world where state assistance is not stigmatized.  It’s easy for the well-to-do to poo-poo the poor.  Whilst neglecting that they themselves are totally codependent on someone for their livelihoods too.

I grew up in a poor state, in a poor area of that state. It has that stigma here. It has it for good reason. Maybe not a majority, but a lot of them are on assistance by choice. It's like it's passed down generation to generation. The girls want to have babies, and not work. The more babies, the more money. I could name a dozen girls I went to high school with, off the top of my head, under 30, with four kids, never had a job, multiple fathers, none of which are in the picture. They flat out choose that life.

[calj737]

Keep the government's hands off of my Medicaid!

WTF? Medicaid is a government funded and managed program. Keep their hands off? Without ”their” hands it wouldn’t exist as it’s funded entirely by tax revenue. 

[calj737]

In the past two or three years there have been analyses done that prove just that: a strong correlation between a population's desire to end government assistance (and leaning right) and disproportionate use of state funds.

That would stand to reason from many perspectives. As a generalization, most “right leaning people” tend to prefer less government involvement and regulate over their lives than “left leaning people” seem to vote for. Social programs as an example are funded by tax payer revenue and depend upon more regulation and taxes being levied. Contrast that with those who prefer Free Market economies and you’ll see a fairly obvious distinction between voting blocs. Again, as a generalization.

[Gene]

Keep the government's hands off of my Medicaid!

WTF? Medicaid is a government funded and managed program. Keep their hands off? Without ”their” hands it wouldn’t exist as it’s funded entirely by tax revenue. 

this was a joke.

[calj737]

Keep the government's hands off of my Medicaid!

WTF? Medicaid is a government funded and managed program. Keep their hands off? Without ”their” hands it wouldn’t exist as it’s funded entirely by tax revenue. 

this was a joke.

You’re right, his statement is a joke.