Topic: Sovereign Citizens

[BomberMann650]

Keep the government's hands off of my Medicaid!

WTF? Medicaid is a government funded and managed program. Keep their hands off? Without ”their” hands it wouldn’t exist as it’s funded entirely by tax revenue. 

I think it was a tongue-in-cheek joke cal 🙄

[BomberMann650]

Sigh.  I hope one day to live in a world where state assistance is not stigmatized.  It’s easy for the well-to-do to poo-poo the poor.  Whilst neglecting that they themselves are totally codependent on someone for their livelihoods too.

I grew up in a poor state, in a poor area of that state. It has that stigma here. It has it for good reason. Maybe not a majority, but a lot of them are on assistance by choice. It's like it's passed down generation to generation. The girls want to have babies, and not work. The more babies, the more money. I could name a dozen girls I went to high school with, off the top of my head, under 30, with four kids, never had a job, multiple fathers, none of which are in the picture. They flat out choose that life.

I would argue that a womans drive to motherhood existed well before TANF and other welfare programs existed.  Women who aren’t seeking tax dollars are still becoming anxious over their own biological clocks.  Some believe their identity as a woman is tied to their matriarchal status.  Since I’m a dude, I don’t necessarily understand the rationale.  Might chock up to a darwinian survival mechanism. 
But I digress.
Welfare running thru generations or geography is a valid data point.  While it’s simple to highlight the correlation between some communities (i.e. disconnected rural ones) their lack of economic prosperity, and use of public assistance.  There are still anomalous findings within urban zones.  The projects in downtown new york is an intriguing example.  It’s like an entire community is getting deserted on an economic island.  The social stigma there literally prevents children from being allowed to play with other children.  Like a yuppie caste system.
I still hope one day that everyone can agree social economic welfare programs are a good thing.  Of all the taxpayer money that is distributed.  This is the money that actually comes back to its citizens!

[carnivorous chicken]

I think it was a tongue-in-cheek joke cal 🙄

Yep. I guess if a joke needs splainin' it's not a good one?

It was also a Tea Party-induced meme about 10 years ago, but memories and attention spans seem short these days.

Anyway, cheers Bomber and Gene.

[BomberMann650]

I think it was a tongue-in-cheek joke cal 🙄

Yep. I guess if a joke needs splainin' it's not a good one?

It was also a Tea Party-induced meme about 10 years ago, but memories and attention spans seem short these days.

Anyway, cheers Bomber and Gene.

Awww man, the tea party *eye roll*.
I’m almost certain their patron saint Ayn Rand would be livid with them.  For hijacking bits of her philosophy and generally missing the plot.

[carnivorous chicken]

Awww man, the tea party *eye roll*.
I’m almost certain their patron saint Ayn Rand would be livid with them.  For hijacking bits of her philosophy and generally missing the plot.

I'm surprised they weren't livid with her -- she was revealed to be on social security and Medicaid in her later years after a life of ranting against state assistance and the "parasites" who accept it.

[calj737]

Awww man, the tea party *eye roll*.
I’m almost certain their patron saint Ayn Rand would be livid with them.  For hijacking bits of her philosophy and generally missing the plot.

I'm surprised they weren't livid with her -- she was revealed to be on social security and Medicaid in her later years after a life of ranting against state assistance and the "parasites" who accept it.

Your facts are wrong. She received Social Security and Medicare, not Medicaid. Both of which every person pays into this not making them “handouts” or “social programs”. Medicaid is a program for low income persons who are not yet eligible to receive Social Security. If you happened to look at your pay stub, you’ll see the prior two deductions forcibly withheld from your daily income at a rate set by the Federal Govt annually.

[BomberMann650]

Awww man, the tea party *eye roll*.
I’m almost certain their patron saint Ayn Rand would be livid with them.  For hijacking bits of her philosophy and generally missing the plot.

I'm surprised they weren't livid with her -- she was revealed to be on social security and Medicaid in her later years after a life of ranting against state assistance and the "parasites" who accept it.

I had the impression Rand was anti totalitarian communism?  Had she invested enough points into the social security system to earn the retirement package?  Thanks to her lucrative book deals.  That would be a capitalist win!  If i understand her ideology correct.

[carnivorous chicken]

Your facts are wrong. She received Social Security and Medicare, not Medicaid. Both of which every person pays into this not making them “handouts” or “social programs”. Medicaid is a program for low income persons who are not yet eligible to receive Social Security. If you happened to look at your pay stub, you’ll see the prior two deductions forcibly withheld from your daily income at a rate set by the Federal Govt annually.

Hey buddy, don't know why you're so salty lately. Lighten up. It's the internet.
 
But yeah, Medicare not Medicaid, typed that in a hurry. And yeah, everyone pays into it, but according to Rand herself those who can't make enough money to become wealthy enough not to accept assistance are parasitical. And she condemned accepting it earlier in her life. Some people can perform the mental gymnastics it takes to clear Rand, others find it hypocritical.

Reminds me of elderly people in Sun City, AZ -- a retirement community where there are minimum age restrictions and the population is overwhelmingly retirees -- trying to get out of paying school taxes since there aren't any children who go to school there. 

[calj737]

Actually, once she car to understand that she had been forced to pay that money, it was quite consistent that she then receive it. It’s called “income recovery”.

If a county doesn’t have certain community services, why then should it’s citizens pay taxes to fund them? That’s the beauty of living in any of the 50 different states; vote with your feet.

Sorry if you feel being corrected makes me salty. Perhaps you’re feeling overly sensitive?

[BobbyR]

 The projects in downtown new york is an intriguing example.  It’s like an entire community is getting deserted on an economic island.  The social stigma there literally prevents children from being allowed to play with other children.  Like a yuppie caste system.
I still hope one day that everyone can agree social economic welfare programs are a good thing.  Of all the taxpayer money that is distributed.  This is the money that actually comes back to its citizens!

The development in Manhattan is driven by foreign investment. The luxury apartments are being bought by offshore individuals parking their money here in NY. As Real Estate unlike using banks there are no reporting requirements. Minorities are being displaced by this activities who would normally move to the outer Boroughs, Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx. The problem is the new Millennium knowledge and professional workers are moving into those Boroughs and "gentrifying" them. This is an explanation and not an excuse. 

The public housing will remain intact and will form these 'islands" discussed. People with means will send their children to private schools and daycare. I live in a northern suburb where most of us we escaped to when we were forced out of the Bronx and other parts of the city starting in the 1960's. We have good schools, low crime and green spaces. The bottom line is we will not import here the conditions we moved away from there.   

[carnivorous chicken]

If a county doesn’t have certain community services, why then should it’s citizens pay taxes to fund them? That’s the beauty of living in any of the 50 different states; vote with your feet.

Sorry if you feel being corrected makes me salty. Perhaps you’re feeling overly sensitive?

Well let me help you understand then -- after missing the whole "government hands" joke I can understand why you might need an explanation.

Those seniors in Sun City? Most have already benefited from public schools (those who didn't go to private schools). It's where they got their educations. Perhaps it is difficult for you to see the immorality of benefiting from a public service when you're young paid for by public funds collected through taxes with the expectation that you will then pay back into the system, and then attempting to opt out of it when you are older. That's how public schools work -- those people went to public schools because the generations before them paid what they owed into the system. Perhaps it's difficult to see the benefit of education for future generations when you're close to expiring, especially if you think only of yourself and not about society as a whole. Seems to be one of the problems with Randian thinking and why most people give up that nonsense when they reach adulthood and develop empathy.

[calj737]

If a county doesn’t have certain community services, why then should it’s citizens pay taxes to fund them? That’s the beauty of living in any of the 50 different states; vote with your feet.

Sorry if you feel being corrected makes me salty. Perhaps you’re feeling overly sensitive?

Well let me help you understand then -- after missing the whole "government hands" joke I can understand why you might need an explanation.

Those seniors in Sun City? Most have already benefited from public schools (those who didn't go to private schools). It's where they got their educations. Perhaps it is difficult for you to see the immorality of benefiting from a public service when you're young paid for by public funds collected through taxes with the expectation that you will then pay back into the system, and then attempting to opt out of it when you are older. That's how public schools work -- those people went to public schools because the generations before them paid what they owed into the system. Perhaps it's difficult to see the benefit of education for future generations when you're close to expiring, especially if you think only of yourself and not about society as a whole. Seems to be one of the problems with Randian thinking and why most people give up that nonsense when they reach adulthood and develop empathy.

Hey thanks for that. I’ve had a most stressful day and your joke was just what I needed to clear my headache. Only problem now is my ribs hurt from rolling on the floor laughing so hard.

[BomberMann650]

Seems to be one of the problems with Randian thinking and why most people give up that nonsense when they reach adulthood and develop empathy.

While I haven’t read ALL of Rands’ “virtue of selfishness” - I never considered it a narcissists manifesto.  I could be wrong.  Always preferred her allegorical fiction works.  Either way, there is a bit of truth to the idea of self-care and preservation within “selfishness”.  Firemen are a good example of how prioritizing the self (through physical fitness regiment) benefits others (i.e. carrying bodies to safety). 

[calj737]

All I can say about these “Soveriegns” is that while many of their objectives I’d agree with, they’ve fallen prey to an “Alex Jones” level conspiracy and we should pity their gullibility. There’s an internet conspiracy for every fool-

[carnivorous chicken]

Seems to be one of the problems with Randian thinking and why most people give up that nonsense when they reach adulthood and develop empathy.

While I haven’t read ALL of Rands’ “virtue of selfishness” - I never considered it a narcissists manifesto.  I could be wrong.  Always preferred her allegorical fiction works.  Either way, there is a bit of truth to the idea of self-care and preservation within “selfishness”.  Firemen are a good example of how prioritizing the self (through physical fitness regiment) benefits others (i.e. carrying bodies to safety).

Her ideas just seem elitist and petulant, and her rabid followers equally petulant. Nobody is saying that self-interest shouldn't ever play a role in decision making or how one considers one's relationships with others.

She also held some pretty disturbing ideas about race and history in America, despite attempting to decry racism.

[BomberMann650]

All I can say about these “Soveriegns” is that while many of their objectives I’d agree with, they’ve fallen prey to an “Alex Jones” level conspiracy and we should pity their gullibility. There’s an internet conspiracy for every fool-

Alex Jones is a straight up fraud and legitimately terrible on screen actor.

[BobbyR]

If a county doesn’t have certain community services, why then should it’s citizens pay taxes to fund them? That’s the beauty of living in any of the 50 different states; vote with your feet.

Sorry if you feel being corrected makes me salty. Perhaps you’re feeling overly sensitive?

Well let me help you understand then -- after missing the whole "government hands" joke I can understand why you might need an explanation.

Those seniors in Sun City? Most have already benefited from public schools (those who didn't go to private schools). It's where they got their educations. Perhaps it is difficult for you to see the immorality of benefiting from a public service when you're young paid for by public funds collected through taxes with the expectation that you will then pay back into the system, and then attempting to opt out of it when you are older. That's how public schools work -- those people went to public schools because the generations before them paid what they owed into the system. Perhaps it's difficult to see the benefit of education for future generations when you're close to expiring, especially if you think only of yourself and not about society as a whole. Seems to be one of the problems with Randian thinking and why most people give up that nonsense when they reach adulthood and develop empathy.

Hey thanks for that. I’ve had a most stressful day and your joke was just what I needed to clear my headache. Only problem now is my ribs hurt from rolling on the floor laughing so hard.

There is nothing wrong with his post. Having been a Trustee on a Board of Ed for 6 years, that is how the system works. Few if any pay enough property taxes to cover their children's education. The residents in the district all pay into the system before and after their kids are in the schools. Some of these old coots are miserable. If they don't want to pay for decent schools, they will certainly pay for more cops. 

[calj737]

There is nothing wrong with his post. Having been a Trustee on a Board of Ed for 6 years, that is how the system works. Few if any pay enough property taxes to cover their children's education. The residents in the district all pay into the system before and after their kids are in the schools. Some of these old coots are miserable. If they don't want to pay for decent schools, they will certainly pay for more cops.

You seem to miss my point: he assumes that someone doesn't "understand how things work" which is incorrect on his part (yet again). I know and understand quite well how municipalities are funded. He also makes the presumption that all these retiree residents were educated locally, have lived locally permanently, and are therefore bound to continue to pay into the system that educated them. That is ridiculous on many fronts.

And the allegation that a fiscal policy be driven by empathy is precisely why this country is $20,000,000,000 in debt and confronting an unfunded liability of $128,000,000,000. So please spare me the lecture on civics or the effort to goad people into paying beyond usage for services they no longer receive. Whether they did, and no longer will, is immaterial. Its what they receive NOW based upon where they live, is what should drive their taxes (at a municipal level). Nothing more.

[Duke McDukiedook]

A good chunk of that debt is from the bloated Military Industrial Complex that wages wars across this earth for mostly commercial endeavors and not defense of our own borders. That is a real waste of money in my mind. Books over bombs every day of the week.

[BobbyR]

There is nothing wrong with his post. Having been a Trustee on a Board of Ed for 6 years, that is how the system works. Few if any pay enough property taxes to cover their children's education. The residents in the district all pay into the system before and after their kids are in the schools. Some of these old coots are miserable. If they don't want to pay for decent schools, they will certainly pay for more cops.

You seem to miss my point: he assumes that someone doesn't "understand how things work" which is incorrect on his part (yet again). I know and understand quite well how municipalities are funded. He also makes the presumption that all these retiree residents were educated locally, have lived locally permanently, and are therefore bound to continue to pay into the system that educated them. That is ridiculous on many fronts.

And the allegation that a fiscal policy be driven by empathy is precisely why this country is $20,000,000,000 in debt and confronting an unfunded liability of $128,000,000,000. So please spare me the lecture on civics or the effort to goad people into paying beyond usage for services they no longer receive. Whether they did, and no longer will, is immaterial. Its what they receive NOW based upon where they live, is what should drive their taxes (at a municipal level). Nothing more.

Please spare me the pay for play scenario. Should we pay for Police since we have never called them or Fire protection, or the recreation or highway dept, or any other public service? I think not. You pay to support community services for the benefit of the entire community. This pay per use is some Libertarian wet dream that does not work. I was a Libertarian at one point so I understand it well. You need to trim the actual waste and not cut into underpinnings of society.

[calj737]

Please spare me the pay for play scenario. Should we pay for Police since we have never called them or Fire protection, or the recreation or highway dept, or any other public service? I think not.

But you do use these services irrespective of your lifestyle and neighborhood as they are "On Call" emergency services. Thats comparing an apple to a watermelon. Why on earth would you continue to pay for child care when you no longer have children? Asinine. Do you still have insurance coverage for birth control despite the fact that your wife is beyond child-bearing years? If not, why not? By supporting the ongoing costs of birth control for the community at large you're repaying the benefits you may have derived. Yet you probably don't have that coverage. Hypocrisy on your part.

And under your scenario, paying for education despite maybe never having had children, or always attended private school, or home-schooled is again washed because I, as the tax payer, never received the service.

So, if you honestly accept these points, you can see where "some" Sovereigns object to State-mandated levies. At least I do.

[Gene]

Can't we all just not get along?

[carnivorous chicken]

This pay per use is some Libertarian wet dream that does not work.

Exactly. And compounded by some people who can't understand the difference between public and private goods (such as birth control), nor accept that if we have public education it has to be paid for by those who have already gone through it. Unless we decide that elementary school children should work and pay their own taxes. Or they should essentially be billed later for the services they use when young. Oh, wait -- that's essentially what the taxes do.

Man, some people try to dish it out but they can't take it.

[Lostboy Steve]

There is nothing wrong with his post. Having been a Trustee on a Board of Ed for 6 years, that is how the system works. Few if any pay enough property taxes to cover their children's education. The residents in the district all pay into the system before and after their kids are in the schools. Some of these old coots are miserable. If they don't want to pay for decent schools, they will certainly pay for more cops.

You seem to miss my point: he assumes that someone doesn't "understand how things work" which is incorrect on his part (yet again). I know and understand quite well how municipalities are funded. He also makes the presumption that all these retiree residents were educated locally, have lived locally permanently, and are therefore bound to continue to pay into the system that educated them. That is ridiculous on many fronts.

And the allegation that a fiscal policy be driven by empathy is precisely why this country is $20,000,000,000 in debt and confronting an unfunded liability of $128,000,000,000. So please spare me the lecture on civics or the effort to goad people into paying beyond usage for services they no longer receive. Whether they did, and no longer will, is immaterial. Its what they receive NOW based upon where they live, is what should drive their taxes (at a municipal level). Nothing more.

Please spare me the pay for play scenario. Should we pay for Police since we have never called them or Fire protection, or the recreation or highway dept, or any other public service? I think not. You pay to support community services for the benefit of the entire community. This pay per use is some Libertarian wet dream that does not work. I was a Libertarian at one point so I understand it well. You need to trim the actual waste and not cut into underpinnings of society.

Depends on how ridiculously bloated it is.


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[BomberMann650]

Why attack the public education system?  Flaws in learning model aside; society earns a huge divided from having less ignorance around.  Even a crotchety old grump can enjoy that.  So long as they keep off his lawn.