Topic: For SCIENCE! (weak charging)

[RandomOrbit]

Well there seems to be a theoretical argument brewing that is distracting from the hands on original purpose of this thread to document what is actually going on with my actual bike, but I guess that's pretty normal for forum threads actually. For anyone saying my charging system was working normally, you're just wrong. It was working, but sub optimally. With the amount of riding I've been doing, the battery should never be as low as it has been.  Getting back on track:

I have been getting a cold, so I did no work yesterday, and let the battery charge up for 2 days on a slow trickle type battery maintaner. The voltage did indeed get above 14 Volts and then settled down to 13.2 after I took it off the charger for a few hours.

Took it out and installed it on the bike and tested it again. Results were slightly better than on Friday, but still not within spec:

• Switch and headlight on, and engine not running approximately 12 volts
• Cranking starter motor dropped to 10.something
• Running at idle 12.2
• 2000 rpm 12.3
• 3000 rpm 12.46
• 4000 rpm 12.5
• 5000 rpm 12.6

Unplugged regulator and rectifier and cleaned plug terminals with brass brush and electrical contact cleaner

• idle 12.2
• 2000 rpm 12.5
• 3000 rpm 12.7
• 4000 rpm 12.8
• 5000 rpm 12.9
• 55000 rpm 13

Installed new component temporarily for comparison. Slightly better, but still not quite within spec. This tells me it's probably more about contacts than it is about the regulator or rectifier.

So I cleaned the contacts again a little more thoroughly, and got:

• idle 12.3
• 2000 rpm 12.6
• 3000 rpm 12.7
• 4000 rpm 12.9
• 5000 rpm 13ish

Like I said I'm sick, so I think I'm going to stop here for now. That's a reasonable improvement, and I can go deeper next weekend. I suspect if I installed the new regulator/rectifier I'd be right in spec, but I also suspect I can get the original components working that well.

P.S. I actually did more test runs than I listed. Those are rough averages of multiple tests.

Further note: Starter which sounded sluggish even with the topped off battery in the initial test got better after I cleaned contacts for regulator and rectifier. Guessing resistance in here must have had something to do with that as well.

[BomberMann650]

Close but not quite.

Since you’re seeing improvement from cleaning connections.  Maybe it’s time to take some dayquil and clean more of the wiring harness.
 

[RandomOrbit]

Close but not quite.

Since you’re seeing improvement from cleaning connections.  Maybe it’s time to take some dayquil and clean more of the wiring harness.

Surprisingly my Deoxit grease I ordered from Amazon last week arrived in the mail TODAY (Sunday). So before I put the side covers on I scrubbed the contacts one last time with a little fiberglass contact pen and applied the Deoxit grease to all of them. Final results for the day:

Idle: 12.32
2000 12.76
3000 13.20
4000 13.36

Close enough for now

[BomberMann650]

Warning about deoxit.
Without cleaning away and neutralizing the chemical, the oxidization can return.
It’s the price to be paid for convenience.

Good to see those numbers keep going up.

[RandomOrbit]

Hey, while I'm in there, what's this little guy down here?

[disco]

Starter Diode. Allows Engine to start in gear, but only if clutch is pulled.

[RandomOrbit]

Starter Diode. Allows Engine to start in gear, but only if clutch is pulled.

Thanks!

[evinrude7]

this thread makes me want to go clean all my bike's contacts.

[BomberMann650]

this thread makes me want to go clean all my bike's contacts.

Lmao Right?  I get the feeling trash can is gonna run up a tab with my shop guy just for that.

[Spanner 1]

Ha !.. flamed by TT.  A 40 year old electromechanical regulator may have widely different parameters than the Honda Shop Manual but still get the job done ! Specs from 40 years ago don't always apply to these components now ( however much you want them to ). A battery reading of 12.5v with the bike @idle or any rpms. may be normal until the battery further depletes before switch to full power charging. Owner already reported a charge voltage of 13.5v, cold after an electric start. No report of bike dying or failing to e.start It's entirely unreasonable to  claim that the 10W 10 Ohm ceramic resistor would hold it's stated resistance over thousands of heat/cool cycles in a 40 year period ! It may well hold the switch point to 12. something volts at it's actual unknown resistance !

[Spanner 1]

Correcting a post pointing out the changes with 40 years of use is not correcting a post !... None of our old bikes are within specs .. lol ! Show me one that toggles between 14.5v ( high ) and 13.5v (low ) 40+ years later ! You could try , with expense , to re-create the brand new specs... not my cup of tea .

[RandomOrbit]

this thread makes me want to go clean all my bike's contacts.

I KNOW right?! I was quite surprised obviously, by how much better things worked just from cleaning contacts. All I touched today was those 2 sets of plugs, but seeing the measurable improvement from doing that I fully intend to go through the rest of the harness.

Wish I had someplace to store it where I can work on it over the winter. Sadly I live in an apartment, and it's going to have to go in someone's barn or a rented storage space for the winter.

[evinrude7]

this thread makes me want to go clean all my bike's contacts.

I KNOW right?! I was quite surprised obviously, by how much better things worked just from cleaning contacts. All I touched today was those 2 sets of plugs, but seeing the measurable improvement from doing that I fully intend to go through the rest of the harness.

Wish I had someplace to store it where I can work on it over the winter. Sadly I live in an apartment, and it's going to have to go in someone's barn or a rented storage space for the winter.

i could put it in my basement but riding it out and around the yard to the gate is sort of labor intensive with our dog set up.  also i had a gas leak on it last winter and the hvac blew that thru the household from the basement return.  it was bad.  other than that i have a carport.  i might enclose the carport and install a wood burning stove to take down the nip a bit.

[TwoTired]

A 40 year old electromechanical regulator may have widely different parameters than the Honda Shop Manual but still get the job done !

If it has widely different parameters, IT'S BROKEN and needs adjustment!  That procedure is also in the shop manual.

Specs from 40 years ago don't always apply to these components now ( however much you want them to ).

B.S.  Actually contrived B.S, at that. The physics haven't changed in 40 years ( however much you want them to ).

A battery reading of 12.5v with the bike @idle or any rpms. may be normal until the battery further depletes before switch to full power charging.

Not a reasonable assertion.  And unsupportable with any scientific foundation.   The Honda manual is clear to understand for those that have an inclination to read it.
As to your claim, I say prove it.  Or, at least supply reliable reference material.   

It's entirely unreasonable to  claim that the 10W 10 Ohm ceramic resistor would hold it's stated resistance over thousands of heat/cool cycles in a 40 year period ! It may well hold the switch point to 12. something volts at it's actual unknown resistance !

Speaking of unreasonable claims.  Show me proof that the said resistor actually changed value.  You have measurement data to present?  Have you ever actually measured that 10 ohm resistor?  I have.
An unabused wire wound resistor is molecularly stable, and keeps its value damn near forever, short of physical alteration from a hammer or some such.  This is why the wire element is encapsulated in ceramic material, which has also proven stable for thousands of years.  They find ceramics in archeological digs that are still fully functional.  The ceramic protects the wire core from elemental atmospheric attacks which could alter its properties.  If it's not cracked or scuffed, it's still the same as when it was made.  These are inorganic materials.

Besides that, the 10 ohm resistor is absolutely no factor in the full charge capability of the alternator or the voltage trip point decisions made by the Vreg.  That's done with a bimetallic strip balanced against spring tension (that is adjustable).  The resistor's only function is to reduce the alternator output current, apart from the decision made that it is required.

Oh well, readers, believe what you want.  It's a shame this FUD has to appear here, to further confuse those uneducated in these matters.

Out.

[Spanner 1]

So I see 9 days later ( from original post ) , this issue is not resolved, despite TT's pontificating and Calj737's pile on.
Here's what you do when your bike is not charging. Take it or leave it or waste money as ya want !
1. Take the battery out of the bike ( shine the terminals while yer at it ). Check that each cell is full, especially each end cell. Top up with distilled water.
2. Test the voltage on the White wire from the regulator, should be close to the battery voltage.
3.  Go straight to the 8-way plug ( y,y,y, g, r, w, lg/r,b/r ). Pull it apart and check for corrosion/ overheated terminals/backed-out spades/ melted etc. Clean the #$%* out of it and be sure no terminals 'back out' when you put the two halves back together.
4. Test the rectifier, which takes abuse usually by connecting a 'car charger' to the battery while in the bike, ( rectifier is connected anytime the battery is in the bike ). If 2 of the 6 diodes in the rectifier are kaput ( open circuit ) then 1/3 or the stator coil's output is turned off and the bike will struggle to produce 12.whatever max. These components on your bike very, very rarely fail without a lot of owner help, well known fact. Did ya do any of that OP ?

[PeWe]

Maybe mentioned earlier,
is the ground cable from battery to frame properly connected on the engine hanger bolt and have good contact with both frame and engine?

[RandomOrbit]

So I see 9 days later ( from original post ) , this issue is not resolved, despite TT's pontificating and Calj737's pile on.
Here's what you do when your bike is not charging. Take it or leave it or waste money as ya want !
1. Take the battery out of the bike ( shine the terminals while yer at it ). Check that each cell is full, especially each end cell. Top up with distilled water.
2. Test the voltage on the White wire from the regulator, should be close to the battery voltage.
3.  Go straight to the 8-way plug ( y,y,y, g, r, w, lg/r,b/r ). Pull it apart and check for corrosion/ overheated terminals/backed-out spades/ melted etc. Clean the #$%* out of it and be sure no terminals 'back out' when you put the two halves back together.
4. Test the rectifier, which takes abuse usually by connecting a 'car charger' to the battery while in the bike, ( rectifier is connected anytime the battery is in the bike ). If 2 of the 6 diodes in the rectifier are kaput ( open circuit ) then 1/3 or the stator coil's output is turned off and the bike will struggle to produce 12.whatever max. These components on your bike very, very rarely fail without a lot of owner help, well known fact. Did ya do any of that OP ?

Cool your jets man. Yes it's been 9 days since I started this post, and no I haven't done any work on my motorcycle since my last post in this thread, because I've been working for 8 of those 9 days, and fighting a cold. So maybe cut me a little slack?

Why does it matter anyway? It's my bike, starts first kick for me every time, and I've put 4000 miles on it this summer with the charging system like it is. Yes I'm planning to fix it when I have the time, but it seems to bother everyone else more than it bothers me.

I have in fact done a lot of what you said above, and if you read my posts you'd know that cleaning the contacts made a measurable improvement. Testing, the regulator & rectifier are next, and if they prove be faulty I shall feel properly chastised for having broken them. I put the last 44000 miles on this bike, and have done all the work on it myself, so wether it's from wear and tear, neglect, or bad mechanic work, I'm fully aware everything that's wrong with my bike is my responsibility.

[Spanner 1]

' matter anyway? It's my bike, starts first kick for me every time, and I've put 4000 miles on it this summer with the charging system like it is. Yes I'm planning to fix it when I have the time, but it seems to bother everyone else more than it bothers me. '

That's ^ exactly what I said 9 days ago ! But I got flamed. Also TT needs to be more precise with his name calling; ' FUD' . This is what that means over the Pond where I'm from.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FUD&defid=1221906

[TwoTired]

Makes sense there would be those that prefer slang to acronyms. 
It's consistent with the avoidance of actual science, and the preference for lore instead of facts.

[RandomOrbit]

I tested the rectifier. It seems to give readings on all 6 diodes, but one if them is inconsistent. mostly they are reading around .66, but the one sometimes jumps up and down between 1.2x and zero, seeming to settle back around .66

For comparison readings of the new rectifier are much more consistent but the new one reads more around .15x. I'm not really sure what the readings are supposed to be like, but I'm thinking I have one flaky diode on the old rectifier. Does that sound right? Might also explain why I sometimes got what looked like normal voltage readings even before cleaning the contacts.

[TwoTired]

It does make sense, that a faulty rectifier can reduce charging output.

I'll ask what meter setting you are using.  You can't use a modern DMM on the ohms scale, as they don't provide enough voltage to enable the diode into conduction.  These meters usually have a diode setting on the function knob/button that does provide enough voltage.

As noted in the testing method I provided, the diodes need to show low ohms with one polarity, and near infinity in the other polarity connection with the meter.

Cheers,

[RandomOrbit]

It does make sense, that a faulty rectifier can reduce charging output.

I'll ask what meter setting you are using.  You can't use a modern DMM on the ohms scale, as they don't provide enough voltage to enable the diode into conduction.  These meters usually have a diode setting on the function knob/button that does provide enough voltage.

As noted in the testing method I provided, the diodes need to show low ohms with one polarity, and near infinity in the other polarity connection with the meter.

Cheers,

Yes I used the diode setting on my multimeter.

I swapped out the regulator and rectifier & fabbed up a bracket for the starter solenoid. I like how it cleaned up the electrics under that left side cover, but it doesn't look like it has solved my problem. I'm not really sure where the problem is at this point as I've cleaned all the contacts, and I'm still maxing out shy of 14 volts.

It may just be that the battery is not good. It was new this spring, but one thing I've discovered in all this is that my battery charger (actually a maintainer) takes a really long time to fully charge a depleted battery. Like at LEAST 2 days. I've always sort of felt that 24 hours should be sufficient, but with this charger I don't think it is, and between that and a weak charging system on the bike, this new battery may not be very good anymore.

At this point I've got the battery back on the maintainer, and it'll be there for at least a few days, because there is no good riding weather on the horizon. I'll check it again next time I get a chance, but if it's not giving me 14.5 volts after a few days on the charger, this project may also be on hold until spring, because I have to find a place to store my bike before the snow flies (any day now), and unless I really luck out it won't be a place I can work on it. Most likely once it's in storage I'll have to kiss it good bye until spring.

[BomberMann650]

14volt at what rpm?

[RandomOrbit]

14volt at what rpm?

Currently it's maxing out at less than 14. It's 13.5 at 3000, and maybe 13.7 or 13.8 at 4000. Revving it to 5000 doesn't seem to do anything aside from annoy the neighbors more than 4000.

[BomberMann650]

And you’ve put in new regulator and rectifier?