Author Topic: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs  (Read 5428 times)

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Offline parm94

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CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« on: October 27, 2017, 01:28:57 AM »
Picked up a 78 CB550K that's been sitting for a couple years. Came with an electronic ignition, dual front discs and whole lotta compression left in the motor. Got it fired up today and I'm in business.



It's running the stock airbox with a mac 4into1. I'm debating whether I should stick with the PD carbs or use the CB550F style 069A/022A style carbs. If anyone can comment, which carbs will give me fewer tuning nightmares and consequently less sleepless nights?

Parm

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 01:34:39 AM »
the early carbs are my choice,consider the pd style as a lean burn smog setup,youll need the manifold runners aswell with the early type,the early carbs have the vac sync ports in the runners,the pd have them on the carb with solid no port runners,i like 069a but any early carbs are fine.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 04:01:11 AM »
Oldstyle carbs are easier to service. On the other hand if your actual set of PDcarbs works fine, I'll keep them for the time being. You have to watch out however for slow jets becoming partially blocked. Best remedy: use your bike regularly and/or maybe add an additive. With an aftermarket exhaust don't expect the standard PD carb setting to work satisfactorily.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 06:38:25 AM by Deltarider »
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"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 04:22:51 AM »
I find the stock settings are fine on my 4-1 system,mind you its a long straight through muffler with decent packing,if you run a short open pipe or short packed muffler youll never get it perfect over the entire rpm range,they need to be long.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 04:34:12 AM »
I find the stock settings are fine on my 4-1 system,mind you its a long straight through muffler with decent packing,if you run a short open pipe or short packed muffler youll never get it perfect over the entire rpm range,they need to be long.
Just for the record, Dave: oldstyle carbs or PD?
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"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 04:37:33 AM »
old style delta,any pd ive come across even in great condition ive just sold on.

just out of interest,heres my 550 powered 500 vs my friends Kawasaki 750 turbo up a hill we ride often,this guy can ride and he easily has the torque all over me,i don't get left too far behind though,stock airbox etc,this shows the value of the stock Honda intake,ill take on any café racer fad 500/550 with pods and suspension modifications,up this same hill.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 04:51:17 AM by dave500 »

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 05:29:27 AM »
and heres the same hill vs a mate on his old ducati pantah,this guy is an instructor,he never backs off!


Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 06:35:56 AM »
Ha, spirited riding. Great vids! Yours sounds well tuned: silky as it should. BTW, I have modified my post above.
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"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Killer Canary

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 06:53:38 AM »
Dave vs Rossi in 2018. ;D
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
Honda MT250, CB400F, CB450K, CB550, GL500, CBR929
Kawi GPz900, H1

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 07:39:07 AM »
I think the PD's are fine. Bigger jets are available for them. If they are in good shape I don't see a major benefit to spending money on replacement carbs.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline 05c50

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 07:42:44 AM »
Great  video, but aren't you guys worried about getting hit head on, riding on the wrong side of the road and all.... ;D

....Paul
Wear a helmet,the life you save may be your own.Ask me how I know.               CB650C,CB550F,GL1000,CB750A

Offline cb_n00b

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 09:16:57 AM »
I have PD carbs on my '77 CB550K. They're a little more complicated and there don't seem to be as many resources on jetting for various setups and maintenance for them, but there's enough for a beginner like me to learn it all and have the bike operate well.

I have stock airbox and a 4-into-1 MotoGP Werks yoshimura style exhaust on it. I raised my needle clip 1 setting (to the 2nd from top position) and put 95 main jets on it and it screams (up 2 sizes from the stock 90 mains). Again, bike runs fantastic and is fast.

As mentioned above, these carbs do run a little lean from factory, so the only additional change I may make it taking the pilot jets up from the stock 38 to 42. It runs fine with them now, but I do get a bit of a small exhaust pop on deceleration.
1977 CB550K
- MotoGP Werks Exhaust / Stock Airbox
- Dyna S Ignition & Coils
- Motogadget M-Unit Blue
- 069A CB550F Carbs
- Beringer front brake kit

Offline cb_n00b

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 09:30:54 AM »
Also worth mentioning that the orange '76 Super Sport you have in the back of that photo is my dream bike. It's just beautiful.
1977 CB550K
- MotoGP Werks Exhaust / Stock Airbox
- Dyna S Ignition & Coils
- Motogadget M-Unit Blue
- 069A CB550F Carbs
- Beringer front brake kit

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 09:45:30 AM »
The PD carbs work well, and provide finely tuned mixture when using the stock 4 to4 exhaust (higher internal pressure) and the stock air induction.  These carbs can be tuned more precisely than the old style carbs.  They had to, in order to meet 1978 US EPA low hydrocarbon idle requirements.

Changing exhaust an intake components with these carbs almost always forces them to provide lean mixtures, due to the smaller fuel metering orifices.
  Correct the metering orifices, and they actually a superior carb type than prior models.

The older style is a "sloppier" carb and they came jetted for more open exhaust types.  So, they need less adjustment to run acceptably, particularly with non-stock intake and exhaust modifications.

In stock form, the PD equipped bike had good street power and got 50MPG or better.
The early carbs can also make good power, but most struggle to get better than 45MPG.
This metric alone would indicates the PDs are actually better carbs when tuned properly.  Tuning properly is something many homebrewers struggle with, so they opt for the older carbs and dismiss engine operational efficiency.

I say use what you have and tune for the mods you make.  But, if you have open exhaust, you are better off with 022A internal parts on the earlier carbs.
My CB550Fs with stock muffler also get 50MPG with the 069A carbs, and they aren't slow, either.  There aren't any US 78 CB550F models, because they couldn't quite make the idle hydrocarbon idle EPA test with the old style carbs.  Finer tuning not available, as on the PD carbs, so model was discontinued rather than retrofit the PD carbs to it.  I'm sure low sales figures also factored into the decision for return-on-engineering-change costs.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline parm94

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 10:43:44 AM »
Felt like I was back on my 550 in July, thanks for sharing the video Dave!

I think the PD's are fine. Bigger jets are available for them. If they are in good shape I don't see a major benefit to spending money on replacement carbs.

I'm going to give these a shot. I've got a couple spare 069A racks and jets but from the sounds of it the PDs may have more finer tuning capabilities. Will need to order gaskets and float needles.

Also worth mentioning that the orange '76 Super Sport you have in the back of that photo is my dream bike. It's just beautiful.

I have to concur, always have the most fun on it.

Offline parm94

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 10:48:19 AM »
The PD carbs work well, and provide finely tuned mixture when using the stock 4 to4 exhaust (higher internal pressure) and the stock air induction.  These carbs can be tuned more precisely than the old style carbs.  They had to, in order to meet 1978 US EPA low hydrocarbon idle requirements.

Changing exhaust an intake components with these carbs almost always forces them to provide lean mixtures, due to the smaller fuel metering orifices.
  Correct the metering orifices, and they actually a superior carb type than prior models.

The older style is a "sloppier" carb and they came jetted for more open exhaust types.  So, they need less adjustment to run acceptably, particularly with non-stock intake and exhaust modifications.

In stock form, the PD equipped bike had good street power and got 50MPG or better.
The early carbs can also make good power, but most struggle to get better than 45MPG.
This metric alone would indicates the PDs are actually better carbs when tuned properly.  Tuning properly is something many homebrewers struggle with, so they opt for the older carbs and dismiss engine operational efficiency.

I say use what you have and tune for the mods you make.  But, if you have open exhaust, you are better off with 022A internal parts on the earlier carbs.
My CB550Fs with stock muffler also get 50MPG with the 069A carbs, and they aren't slow, either.  There aren't any US 78 CB550F models, because they couldn't quite make the idle hydrocarbon idle EPA test with the old style carbs.  Finer tuning not available, as on the PD carbs, so model was discontinued rather than retrofit the PD carbs to it.  I'm sure low sales figures also factored into the decision for return-on-engineering-change costs.

Cheers,

Another quality post by TwoTired. Exactly the info I was looking for, thanks!

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 01:09:27 PM »
069A carbs are so straightforward a cow can work on em!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2017, 01:00:56 AM »
For all those that wonder why they can't achieve the wonderful mileages TT manages, here's some comfort from the archives. Below I represent some mileages that maybe are more realistic. They're not only from roadtests but also from socalled 'rider reports'. IMO especially the latter give a reliable image of what you can expect. Ofcourse mileage varies according to use of the bike. Although I limit myself to the averages measured, they could give you some guidance. I calculated thus: there are 1609 meters in a mile and 3,784 liters in an US gallon. First the roadtests. The average during test periods of a CB550F was 34 miles to the gallon (based on tests in Holland and Germany). A Dutch test of the CB550K3 gave 33-37 mpg. Now these were tests where the bikes were tried out ofcourse. More realistic in my view are the figures past on by riders that actually owned these bikes in 'riders reports'.
Again I limit myself to the averages. For the CB500 with 107 respondents the average in daily use was 40 mpg. For the CB550K3 and CB550F it was 36 mpg. Unfortunately data of F and K3 models were put together. Of the 114 respondents 76 owned a F model, 38 a K3. The K3 I rode, never came even close to 50 mpg but maybe it had tp do with my riding. Into the archives again to see if I could find some more. An article in Classic & Motorcycle Mechanics (May 1996) mentions 49-50 mpg for the CB550K3, but... that's a different gallon. Translated in US gallons it would be 41 mpg. Unclear in this article is, whether they've actually tested it or copied it from some Honda brochure, but it is more or less the mileage that I myself have experienced on a K3. BTW, the K3 was marketed in Europe as the tourer version of the CB550, had somewhat longer intake runners and was leaned out compared to the other CB550s. Warning: as the K3 was already leaned out, I would stick to the OEM airfilter element, to not run the risk of a too lean mixture that some aftermarket airfilters cause. Nothing but praise for the stock silencers that really did what the term says. Unfortunately Honda forgot to provide them with a drainhole like the oldstyle trumpets had, reason why so many would rot prematurely.
From what I've seen and experienced, I cannot say the PDcarb was a 'better' carb and that the oldstyle carbs were 'sloppy'. Far from it. My impression is that with the PD carbs they were mainly focused on less pollution at and near idle.
If you don't achieve the incredible mileages TT has achieved, don't despair. You're not alone.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 11:32:55 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 PD or 069A Carbs
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2017, 02:49:42 AM »
Great  video, but aren't you guys worried about getting hit head on, riding on the wrong side of the road and all.... ;D

....Paul
ha ha,just a little scallywag behaviour,if you look close the last coupla frames show a motorcycle cop going the other way!
theres a lot to be said for the stock induction system,it works fine.