Author Topic: New Carbs Funny Running  (Read 3310 times)

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Offline MountainCBguy

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New Carbs Funny Running
« on: October 30, 2017, 02:09:29 PM »
I got a refurbished carb bank from a 77’ cb750F from eBay and installed today. I’m going to completely restore the original set from my bike (77’ 750k). I’ve been trying to get this bike running right since day 1 (4 months ago), bit by bit. I have 4-1 pipes, had a learning curve there about crush gaskets, a cb500T tank, an aftermarket petcock (small leak here, either the line or the petcock), stock airbox (rubber seal trashed from previous carbs leaking gas into box), most everything else is stock.
After new carb install, it has a little trouble running coming out of a stop. It kicks up fine once I pick up speed and open the throttle but the exhaust pops. I messed with the idle screw because it was idling too high but otherwise haven’t messed with any other adjustments because I’m not sure what does what yet. With the funny running, popping exhaust, and trouble starting even with enrichener pulled all the way, would this be lean-condition or, and I suspect this is it, did I not get my stuff seated in right? My only knowledge of all this comes from these past 4-months and this forum, which is why I post so much. As always, thank you guys for being super helpful.
Here are some pictures:


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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 02:24:32 PM »
Yep, you’re too lean.  Have you gotten to the max adjustment on the mix screw?

Nice tank mural

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 02:30:28 PM »
Which one is the mix screw? Is that the one on the underside?


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Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 02:35:16 PM »

This one?


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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 03:18:54 PM »
yes, that is the mixture screw.  Don't move it until you have determined where its at now.  Did you confirm that the accelerator pump is working?
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline ekpent

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 03:21:05 PM »
 Be a good idea to start your new life with new carbs with new spark plugs so you can get a little read on what's going on inside the engine.

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 03:25:34 PM »
I will get some new spark plugs. How do you determine if the accelerator pump is working?


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Offline Ridem32

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 04:22:21 PM »
With the air box cover off looking into the rear of carbs motor not running twist the throttle and see if it squirts gas.  If so it’s working


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Offline evinrude7

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2017, 05:02:09 PM »
wouldn't the jetting be different on F carbs than K carbs of same year even if it's the same carb setup? 
cb750 k6 - ugly

Offline TwoTired

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 05:17:17 PM »
wouldn't the jetting be different on F carbs than K carbs of same year even if it's the same carb setup?
yes, this is true.  But, once you change intake ducting components and exhaust pressure parameters, neither will be "correct".

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Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2017, 05:28:57 PM »
These were “leaned out” a little stock, weren’t they? Also, the screw that I’ve indicated in the other photo DOES control the accelerator mix, right? If I turn them to seat (all together?) should I do 1/4 turns out until it runs right?


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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2017, 05:45:08 PM »
Plug chops mate  ;D

Gysot

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2017, 05:54:54 PM »
I just read through Houndog750’s Q&A on Plug Chops. So, run for a few minutes, kill power and pull clutch and stop, pull plugs?


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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2017, 06:16:34 PM »
Yep 15 minutes at idle on a previously warmed motor.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2017, 07:55:22 PM »
These were “leaned out” a little stock, weren’t they?
No, they weren't.  They were tuned precisely for the engine's needs using stock components and not laying a soot coating inside the exhaust system.  If you make alterations to the intake and exhaust components without telling the carbs to alter their output, and guess what, they don't provide proper fuel mixtures.  Is that really a surprise?

Also, the screw that I’ve indicated in the other photo DOES control the accelerator mix, right?
Nope, it doesn't.  It controls the mixture ratio at idle.  Which is tuned to ideal mixture for idle operation  (Max idle speed increase).

The idle mixture isn't enough to overcome the loss of fuel jet suction when you lift the mechanical slides.  It would naturally stumble unless you add some fuel for the air inrush.  That's where the accelerator pump comes to bear.  It shoots raw gas into the carb throat as there is an inrush of fresh air.  Viola!  No more stumble off idle.

You will need to pay attention to that accelerator pump.  It's really a useful device on these carbs.  Just needs attention if it's been neglected.

It's a diaphragm at the bottom of float bowl two.  Is also has two check valves to control fluid direction.  They need to pass fuel in only one direction.  I've always gotten them to work right with lots of carb cleaner flushing.  Never had to dismantle those.  The diaphragm has two holes in the surrounding "gasket", that must be widened to the same diameter as the holes they seal.
There are also inline restrictors on the tubing the links the carbs.  These are important to make each carb position squirt the same amount.

Finally the posts at the cab entrances must have clear exits.  It took me three tries to fully understand how to make the pump system work properly, but once that was sorted, wow, what a difference.  The IMS can be set for minimum delivery, yet anytime you twist the throttle, instant power.

Watch out for replacement diaphragm parts.  Some had a rod that was too short.  So, compare its length with the old one if you believe it is original.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2017, 07:59:12 PM »

This one?
Those are Idle Mixture Screws (IMS) or pilot screws as depicted in the Honda shop manual supplement chapter 24.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2017, 07:22:36 AM »
Okay, thank you for clearing all that up. This may have been something I messed up a little. Float bowl #2 was missing an overflow stem, and a took it off to replace it with my original but changed my mind because I realized that may have been one of the screwy parts on mine, so I put the bowl from the new one back. Now that I’ve got some daylight, I’ll check for fuel squirting from the pump.


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Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2017, 12:04:03 PM »
It’s definitely the pump. When I operate the throttle, the other parts work as they should but the little plunger (not sure what the term is) isn’t being pressed down. Is this what pushes the fuel through the accelerator bowl and out into the carb throat? Tried it on both bowls, still didn’t press. There’s too much space between the knob and plunger.


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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2017, 12:23:05 PM »
How would either of those two circled brass bits get fuel from the bowl?  I don’t see a pathway in the casting.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2017, 02:24:52 PM »
It’s definitely the pump. When I operate the throttle, the other parts work as they should but the little plunger (not sure what the term is) isn’t being pressed down. Is this what pushes the fuel through the accelerator bowl and out into the carb throat?

Yes that is the mechanical rod.

Have you filled the bowl with gas and operated the rod by hand to see it pumps?
[/quote]
Tried it on both bowls, still didn’t press. There’s too much space between the knob and plunger.

That's a problem.

Did you look at the Honda manual yet?

S/B Zero to .008" clearance between rod and actuator arm.  And 9.5 to 10.5mm between pump arm and carburetor stay.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 09:46:19 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2017, 07:26:17 PM »

Bomberman, I think this hole allows fuel to flow into a separate, tiny bowl for the accelerator pump, which the mechanical rod, when pressed down on by the actuator arm, plunged and sends fuel shooting along the connecting tubes and out of the needles inside the carb throat. (Please correct me if I’m wrong but I think I get it now.)


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Offline BomberMann650

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2017, 10:03:58 PM »
Oh that was a hole in the casting?!  Looked like a piece of schmutz at first.

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2017, 09:59:29 AM »
The spring was all worn out. I’ve got it rigged to pull through but it seems like it’s only spraying in #2, dribbling a little in #1, and nothing in 3 or 4. It’s running better, but still a little lean.


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2017, 10:46:29 AM »
The spring was all worn out. I’ve got it rigged to pull through but it seems like it’s only spraying in #2, dribbling a little in #1, and nothing in 3 or 4. It’s running better, but still a little lean.

Were the linking tubes between carbs replaced?
There are supposed to be restrictors in those tubes for evening pressure among them.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MountainCBguy

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Re: New Carbs Funny Running
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2017, 10:50:20 AM »
They look really clean, like they’ve been replaced. I’ll pull them off to check when I can.


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