Topic: Best Electronic ignition?

[dave500]

yeah just get one direct,i got one direct here in Australia,a lot of modern fours fire all at once,boyer have units that will use your factory coils,or get the super duper model that comes with coils to suit it,both systems fire all four at once and use the same pick up plate,the coils on the super duper ones are daisy chained and are hooked to live power full time without the key,they don't get earthed until the unit is switched on and the bike is started,they all produce a spark if the key is switched on and off,ive used a few boyers.
I don't care who uses what but just out of interest and to show anyone who might want to know heres whats in the boyer micro power package,the red box shown is the micro digital unit,they are all the same size and shape.
boyer use a reluctor type,magnet passes coils inducing a triggering signal to the box,the coils are small and the same as used on late triumps and may be made by either gill or pvl,i silicone the box on top of the airbox on 500/550s,theres no mounting brackets,they advise you to simply zip tie it somewhere under the tank?i like it back in the airflow away from rising engine heat

[PeWe]

This will be the best thread about CB ignitions

[dave500]

theres been a few pewe,they just get repeated over and over I think?
like oil threads,ya cant hate electronic ignitions,look back to the 70s with millions of out of ignition tune big American V8s chugging along,imagine if they all had electronic ignitions in the day?the fuel saved and smog not caused?

[Deltarider]

Is B&B a transistor ignition or CDI? Or do they trade both kinds?

[dave500]

transistor switched delta,a lotta guys call any box the "CDI"but it aint,even if a factory ignition module they call it a cdi,but it aint,cdi "CAPACITOR DISCHARGE IGNITION"is pretty old now and not really used anymore,a capacitor is charged up most often by a magneto then triggered to unload into a coil that produces the spark,electronic igniton still has the coils powered then disconnected from that power causing the spark,both use entirely different types of coils aswell.

[dave500]

for the sake of some who may be following and only just barely understand ignitions,point systems have the coils powered when the points are closed,then when the points open and break that circuit(disconnect the coils from earth)the spark happens,transitior systems(electronic) take care of that with no mechanical parts to wear out or adjust as they partially wear out which is what a tune up(set points gap etc) is,making up for the wearing out of mechanical parts,with electronic ignitions magnetic triggers at the right time tell the tranistors to open or close the circuit,or switch on or off as would the points have done.

[flatlander]

if anyone wants to see more pictures of the boyer micro power ignition...

whole kit and coils, wires:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,134863.msg1684770.html#msg1684770

plate and rotor installed:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,134863.msg1681672.html#msg1681672

waterproofing coil connections:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,134863.msg1738469.html#msg1738469
i had trouble in the rain with the ignition cutting out due to the connections getting wet. this fixed it.

[HondaMan]

Which reminds me... I still don't know why condensers have a shelf life.

It's because the 400v high-temperature automotive types use a waxed-paper dielectric material, which decays at the rate of normal Kraft-type paper. When the dielectric dies out from non-heating use (they are not sealed units), the paper becomes more vulnerable to punch-thru from high-voltage kickback form the coils (about 400v). The dielectric paper-wax combination has a very predictable lifetime of about 6 years, after which the voltage rating must be dropped about 25 volts per year thereafter, until they are put to use: that that point, they do not lose voltage rating so long as they are operated above 180 degrees (F) for at least 24 hour per year. This action restores the flexibility of the waxy dielectric by re-saturating the paper: in effect, it "heals" the condensor somewhat if you use them once in a while. This was a design first pioneered by Henry Ford's engineers in the early 1900s (reference-  "Ford: the first 100 years").

So, if you use OEM ones from 1968 on a Hondaman Ignition, they still work...

[PeWe]

theres been a few pewe,they just get repeated over and over I think?
like oil threads,ya cant hate electronic ignitions,look back to the 70s with millions of out of ignition tune big American V8s chugging along,imagine if they all had electronic ignitions in the day?the fuel saved and smog not caused?

I like oil threads!

[PeWe]

Which reminds me... I still don't know why condensers have a shelf life.

It's because the 400v high-temperature automotive types use a waxed-paper dielectric material, which decays at the rate of normal Kraft-type paper. When the dielectric dies out from non-heating use (they are not sealed units), the paper becomes more vulnerable to punch-thru from high-voltage kickback form the coils (about 400v). The dielectric paper-wax combination has a very predictable lifetime of about 6 years, after which the voltage rating must be dropped about 25 volts per year thereafter, until they are put to use: that that point, they do not lose voltage rating so long as they are operated above 180 degrees (F) for at least 24 hour per year. This action restores the flexibility of the waxy dielectric by re-saturating the paper: in effect, it "heals" the condensor somewhat if you use them once in a while. This was a design first pioneered by Henry Ford's engineers in the early 1900s (reference-  "Ford: the first 100 years").

So, if you use OEM ones from 1968 on a Hondaman Ignition, they still work...

So these will work fine?
 

[Deltarider]

Which reminds me... I still don't know why condensers have a shelf life.

It's because the 400v high-temperature automotive types use a waxed-paper dielectric material, which decays at the rate of normal Kraft-type paper. When the dielectric dies out from non-heating use (they are not sealed units), the paper becomes more vulnerable to punch-thru from high-voltage kickback form the coils (about 400v). The dielectric paper-wax combination has a very predictable lifetime of about 6 years, after which the voltage rating must be dropped about 25 volts per year thereafter, until they are put to use: that that point, they do not lose voltage rating so long as they are operated above 180 degrees (F) for at least 24 hour per year. This action restores the flexibility of the waxy dielectric by re-saturating the paper: in effect, it "heals" the condensor somewhat if you use them once in a while. This was a design first pioneered by Henry Ford's engineers in the early 1900s (reference-  "Ford: the first 100 years").

So, if you use OEM ones from 1968 on a Hondaman Ignition, they still work...

Thanks Hondaman, I wouldn't have thought the condensers on our bike are the waxed-paper dielectric type.

[strynboen]

yes elektrolyte kondensatore used in elektronic radios etc...dryes aut..and Loose kapasity...but the dry paper alufoil types ones dont.(.car/sohc types)

[rotortiller]

Surprisingly, someone was interested enough to find actual evidence.  http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/cap_failure/

[Deltarider]

yes elektrolyte kondensatore used in elektronic radios etc...dryes aut..and Loose kapasity...but the dry paper alufoil types ones dont.(.car/sohc types)

So... ours, do they have a shelf life or not? In all those years I had one maybe two condensers that arose suspicion, but I never learned the cause. Did any of you guys cut one open to see what's inside?

[Deltarider]

Surprisingly, someone was interested enough to find actual evidence.  http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/cap_failure/

Nice read. The white modern condensers shown are surely an overkill. I even reduced the original 630V in my module to 400V. The read seems to confirm what I've known intuitively: ideally electronic components should not be located in a spot with high temperatures and vibrations. That's why I choose for my homebuilt transistor ignition module a spot under the rubber strap and against the battery, which itself rests on rubber 'silent blocs'. The condensers inside are of the modern type that never fail, so I'm told. I don't know if the latter is true however.
My homebuilt set allows a firing period of 2000μs. That may not sound like much, but it's more than adequate and so offers a respectable reserve. To give you an idea: for 72^o crank rotation at 100Hz (6000 rpm). In theory ofcourse, you always have to await if nature has understood your calculations. 

[strynboen]

i have cut a lot of stuff open..and at my job..seen some explodet ones..the car types is dry..paper and silver folie rolled up in 2 layers..and then loosly pressed in the metal housing..and glued the end cap inn..start and run kondensators is full of a kind of floting plastic pasta..vho holds the elektrolyte..they are the wet type..the block kondensators you have on Photo..is cast dry and byild in layers..of alu folie against some isalation layer and pressed kompact and cast in plastic(..vork fine on ignision systems..0,22 pf)


i have a brand nev one vho vas defelt..and some 25 years vork fine..dont think they dies of age..but old ones vas better build kvality..

[Deltarider]

Thanks for sharing Strynboen. Amazing site this is: every day we learn something new.

[PeWe]

yes elektrolyte kondensatore used in elektronic radios etc...dryes aut..and Loose kapasity...but the dry paper alufoil types ones dont.(.car/sohc types)

I had a 5 channels amplifier where the capacitors gave up, Thule made in Denmark.

[strynboen]

strange ve use to make kondensators and radio stuff for the wernemacht in 1943  ..they never sav any problems(other vith the rusians)in stalingrad

[dave500]

Honda fours in Russia don't have points!,they use AK47 magazine springs and firing pins.

[Deltarider]

strange ve use to make kondensators and radio stuff for the wernemacht in 1943  ..they never sav any problems(other vith the rusians)in stalingrad

Maybe there was a communication problem (German>Danish) or there were so many condensors failing that communication had become impossible.  Yeah, them Russians gave them a bit of an headache, didn't they?

[strynboen]

yes most of the rusian died in frendly fire...oh nov ve are in off topic...lets go back to ignision..

[Deltarider]

Any of you guys that uses a plasma ignition? For an explanation see:

and following vids.

[PeWe]

High amount of ripple and high temperature are not the capacitors friends. Or "pumping" them as amplifiers and power supplies can. I have seen some that started to grow like pregnant women

[strynboen]

they can explode like a hand granade..if you use a start kondensator as drive kondensator..it vill overheat..and make a damp expoosion. a bit like a Accumulator(vho are ventilated)..but the kond is Sealed..so can build up a pressure..(.most) wet kondenastors is polarised..so need to be konnekted korekt polarity too..

you can start a car vith them..so powerfull are some types..but only for a short blast..så need to start the car in first try.
.have a idea to try to build one in my moped..as it not have a starter..and kills my batteries..as i only rides it 2-5 times at year..think a elektrolyte kondensator vill do better in that ekstreme vay of use...i just have a neutral light and turnsignal..vho not realy need to vork vith stopped engine..