Topic: BOTM, will this work for you ?

[Sam Green Racing]

Ok guys, the November BOTM turned out to be something of an embarrassment for the runner up Scott when Eric's bike was flooded with votes.
Several people expressed their concern about which bikes should be put in against one another but don't forget, it is YOUR nominations that put them there in the first place.
So how about this then, Don and myself will group the bikes as and when we see fit and will fall into 4 categories. 350 to 400...500 to 650....750 and then Competition bikes, (IE, Race and drag bikes.)
This means that if you spot a bike and want to nominate it, just let Don or myself know and we will slot it in as and when we see fit. This means you don't have to wait until the next nomination thread comes up.

Normal BOTM rules will still apply. 

Over to you.

Regards Sam. 

[calj737]

Hmmm....

it is my opinion that re-working BOTM so that every suitable candidate can win an award is unnecessary. It’s a substantial honor to be nominated by your internet peers, and really shouldn’t that be sufficient? Is there money involved? Since that answer is “No” then why muck with it to insure “everyone gets a trophy”?

I do see the disparity, and lots of bikes I’ve voted for are run over by other more special builds, but as adults can’t we just enjoy them and be proud that something we’ve built is acknowledged?

Anyone who builds a bike with the expressed intent of a BOTM of BOTY award is missing the point of the forum and journey in my view.

I’ve seen nominated bikes turn into campaigns for votes and that displeases me, personally. Build it, ride it, enjoy it. That’s what it should all be about.

[540nova]

Hmmm....

it is my opinion that re-working BOTM so that every suitable candidate can win an award is unnecessary. It’s a substantial honor to be nominated by your internet peers, and really shouldn’t that be sufficient? Is there money involved? Since that answer is “No” then why muck with it to insure “everyone gets a trophy”?

I do see the disparity, and lots of bikes I’ve voted for are run over by other more special builds, but as adults can’t we just enjoy them and be proud that something we’ve built is acknowledged?

Anyone who builds a bike with the expressed intent of a BOTM of BOTY award is missing the point of the forum and journey in my view.

I’ve seen nominated bikes turn into campaigns for votes and that displeases me, personally. Build it, ride it, enjoy it. That’s what it should all be about.

Well said, I agree 100%

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[flatlander]

i pretty much agree with cal.
additionally, running it in the way you proposes poses extra burden on you and don. i don't know if you want to spend the extra time (you're already doing a lot on volunteer basis!) and potentially deal with the grief if someone thinks they've been put in the wrong category or complains why they are not yet put up for vote.
the system now is totally transparent and, for the most part, runs itself which is kind of nice.

[calj737]

If you wanted to make any change, perhaps a 3 bike limit? We've had months where there were so many the votes became diluted, then only a single bike the following. Now, those single bike months certainly awarded a worthy bike, but I'm sure an uncontested vote is less special than a 2 or 3 horse race. If you weigh the outcome as some type of "extra honor".

But at the end of the day, why change it at all. I'd hate to see folks withdraw from posting their builds, decline the nominations, or finagle their bike for a nomination simply due to their fellow nominees.

Okay, pub is open, drinks are on Terry! 

[sinister902]

Cal really hit the nail on the head IMHO.

in a day and age where everything gets reworked to make sure no one's feelings get hurt and participation trophies exist....I think it should be left alone.

The only thing I could see tweaking is the length of time between being allowed in to BOTM if you lose. what is that now, 3 months? Being in the running is a great honor in itself. It shouldn't be a popularity contest, and there's a ton of us on here so it's easy for votes to landslide. But that's life, and it's surely not the point of building a bike. As Cal said....be honored to be nominated and go ride the damn thing and enjoy it.

[kmb69]

I agree, Cal has hit the nail on the head.

Nothing I can add except I was really disappointed recently when a ho-hum bike IMHO, that the owner didn't even build, won due to the exhortation of moderators in a personal popularity contest.

[FuZZie]

Sorry for the rant in botm guys, I was more venting but thinking about it I'd like to suggest this.     

What if categories are set to months:
Say Dec = "Competition bikes, (IE, Race and drag bikes.)"
       Jan = Contours type builds (putting them back to show room)
       Feb = caffeine based
       march = all about the 750
       ect...

To start the 3 month rule needs a reset to 0, so you'll have plenty of bikes for startup.
Also 12 months for the categories to rebuild and builders know when they they need to finish up for a possible nomination.

Not a big change and really no more work other that working out the month/categories list and making it a sticky.

We could get something closer to fair and more completive as a result provided we can field enough bikes.

[Stev-o]

i pretty much agree with cal.
 

+1.   It's just the luck of the draw when it comes to what particular bike will be up against.

What I am against is having Pro-built bikes nominated, that is not what this forum is about.

[innovativems]

Ya I think leave it as is.  I haven't seen a month flooded with bikes. I say it is what is and have fun with how it is now. 


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[CBGhia]

i pretty much agree with cal.
 

+1.   It's just the luck of the draw when it comes to what particular bike will be up against.

What I am against is having Pro-built bikes nominated, that is not what this forum is about.

Yeah, pro-built bikes are not cool in this instance.  Like taking a professional basketball player to the Y for a pick-up game. 

People on here build some incredible bikes and some of them surpass even what a lot of pro-shops put out, but they usually don't have the same resources and they are doing it as a labor of love rather than for the cashola.


I also like the idea of rotating the theme for the month.  Like one month be cafe/brat bikes, another being crazy custom, another being perfect resto, resto-mod, etc.

[ofreen]

Ok guys, the November BOTM turned out to be something of an embarrassment for the runner up Scott when Eric's ....

I don’t need to say that Scott shouldn’t be embarrassed about the outcome, which takes nothing away from his fine bike and his efforts. I see your point though, Sam, but if it were me I’d keep it simple as it is now. My 750F was first nominated back in 2012 and was outvoted. That was fine with me, just the fact that it was recognised was plenty of tribute for a machine that symbolizes the quality that Honda created. That it won BOTM earlier this year was just icing on the cake. Scott’s bike fully deserves be a contender another time.

[RAFster122s]

I agree with Cal.
No need to theme the months or make any changes, but...definitely not the pro built or shop built bikes where everything is farmed out.
A bike built by someone like tweakin is typically a very complex and expensive build that is top quality as he pours some labor of love into it and it has kickass performance as well as looks and is not some cookie-cutter look alike.  The details and overall build is very layered.  It is built by someone who has the resources to invest plenty of time and money into the build.  The end result is often a $10k bike not including all the labor for tweakin's hours.  It was built to his vision of what he wanted.
tweakin's bikes are equivalent to buying a new bike and they are an example of builds at pro level.

Scott's sweep the floor builds are great as they are a very nice resto/resto-mod approach bringing together things Scott has collected with intention of building a bike and often when gathering things you change your mind on those ideas as the vision changes. His builds are great and typically are not super high dollar builds and a bike that artfully pulls together a great looking bike.  Do I like Scott's bikes, yes...very much.  Do I like tweakin's bikes yes.  But, I recognize that tweakin has opened his wallet very wide and built something he loved without as many constraints on costs, whereas Scott's bikes are an investment of money but the money invested is not in the same range for his builds.  Not everyone can spend as much bringing their bikes to the ideas in their head...so putting a $5k bike up against a 10k bike is not equitable or a fair competition.
  But, that said, this is the breaks and neither builder built them thinking they would be building a BOTM bike...merely a bike they wanted to create.   
 
I realize I will not have the resources to put together a bike like tweakin, does not lessen my respect for his builds. No, does a bike Scott will sweep the floor and come up with a great bike...and I respect his builds as well.
Any bike that makes BOTM is special and is recognizing as a beauty in the eyes of the nominator and those who voted for them.

We all have different tastes and that is often reflected in the builds and voting.
David

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

I agree with Cal.
No need to theme the months or make any changes, but...definitely not the pro built or shop built bikes where everything is farmed out.
A bike built by someone like tweakin is typically a very complex and expensive build that is top quality as he pours some labor of love into it and it has kickass performance as well as looks and is not some cookie-cutter look alike.  The details and overall build is very layered.  It is built by someone who has the resources to invest plenty of time and money into the build.  The end result is often a $10k bike not including all the labor for tweakin's hours.  It was built to his vision of what he wanted.
tweakin's bikes are equivalent to buying a new bike and they are an example of builds at pro level.

Scott's sweep the floor builds are great as they are a very nice resto/resto-mod approach bringing together things Scott has collected with intention of building a bike and often when gathering things you change your mind on those ideas as the vision changes. His builds are great and typically are not super high dollar builds and a bike that artfully pulls together a great looking bike.  Do I like Scott's bikes, yes...very much.  Do I like tweakin's bikes yes.  But, I recognize that tweakin has opened his wallet very wide and built something he loved without as many constraints on costs, whereas Scott's bikes are an investment of money but the money invested is not in the same range for his builds.  Not everyone can spend as much bringing their bikes to the ideas in their head...so putting a $5k bike up against a 10k bike is not equitable or a fair competition.
  But, that said, this is the breaks and neither builder built them thinking they would be building a BOTM bike...merely a bike they wanted to create.   
 
I realize I will not have the resources to put together a bike like tweakin, does not lessen my respect for his builds. No, does a bike Scott will sweep the floor and come up with a great bike...and I respect his builds as well.
Any bike that makes BOTM is special and is recognizing as a beauty in the eyes of the nominator and those who voted for them.

We all have different tastes and that is often reflected in the builds and voting.
David

David,

I DO understand the sentiment behind your post, but it is difficult to draft rules that make it easy to distinguish and DQ professionals from non-professionals.  Some guys build bikes out of their home garage and sell them; if they are compensated, then that might constitute being a professional.  I've seen people extoll "Built not bought" but most of them buy certain aspects of their builds.  Almost ALL builders (professionals and amateurs alike) outsource certain services or parts (most are not casting pistons, etc.).  Some "builders" even like Roland Sands are primarily designers and have fabricators and other talent execute their vision.

I will be happy to enforce any new approved rules, but I would caution those would be draftspeople to prepare rules that ARE NOT subject to ambiguity and disputes.

[Scott S]

Ok guys, the November BOTM turned out to be something of an embarrassment for the runner up Scott when Eric's ....

I don’t need to say that Scott shouldn’t be embarrassed about the outcome, which takes nothing away from his fine bike and his efforts. I see your point though, Sam, but if it were me I’d keep it simple as it is now. My 750F was first nominated back in 2012 and was outvoted. That was fine with me, just the fact that it was recognised was plenty of tribute for a machine that symbolizes the quality that Honda created. That it won BOTM earlier this year was just icing on the cake. Scott’s bike fully deserves be a contender another time.

 I'm not embarrassed at all. Heck, any other time and *I* would have voted for Eric's bike, too!
 I've been nominated five times with four different bikes, and that's cool.
 I'm just a hobbyist, building stuff out of my garage. Cal's seen my work space. I learn a new skill with every build. If I could weld, I'd REALLY be dangerous!

 That said, other than the machine work for the fork swap, the exhaust (obviously), mounting the tires and painting the body work, EVERYTHING else was done by me (sometimes with help from my Dad or girlfriend) at home. I'm pretty proud of that.
 And if nothing else, I have vision. Just working on acquiring the skills to build what I see in my head.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Only suggestion I might make would be 2 categories: original and modified with parameters set up for both. Rotate monthly? 

I applaud both bikes!!    but could only vote for one unfortunately.

[edwardmorris]

My 2c.

+1 to keeping it simple as it is now, agreeing with what Greg expressed above. Big budget builds don't automatically secure a win. Ron's Phaedrus has more (high end, expensive) chrome work than anything else on the forum and it didn't win the first few nominations (in fact I don't know if it has won at all yet, I need to check) despite it winning several trophies at VJMC and other events. Same goes for budget builds, no guaranteed wins. And same for class, there have been 400s that have beat 550s and 750s handily in the past. Campaigning for a build, yours or one you like ins't bad. It takes several posts from Don in various forums to get a decent turn out as it is. There have been months where voting was severely lacking and Don has been doing great keeping the turnout from dwindling. I've nominated and renominated many bikes because I, and possibly many others felt they were done well, but in the end it was what the voters liked best. Tom's beautiful 550 resto was up against my admittedly big budget 750, but I and many others knew it (Tom's 550) deserved to be BOTM and it became one when I renominated it as soon as it became eligible. +1 again, for the current simple set of rules. I've campaigned for Tige's builds in the past because they were a great inspiration for me, and by making more people know about it meant (to me, at least) that more will be inspired by the workmanship. I've campaigned for my own bike when it was nominated, but that wasn't what I built it for. I wanted to build it right the first time so I can keep it on the road, and thankfully that's where its been since its first run. Winning wasn't bad, and if that brought attention to the wealth of info in the build thread from so many great people here, I'm happy.

Nothing is permanent except change, so if there is to be a new way to do this, I agree with Don's point on ambiguity and disputes.

[magnum56]

I agree with most, that a change is not required.

Anyone should be thrilled just to be nominated by his peers in this playground.

 

[Sam Green Racing]

Ok Scott, perhaps I should have said down hearted and not embarrassed but thanks for your input.

The majority seem to think leave it as is and if it's OK by edwardmorris, then it's ok with me.

As you all know, I've been pretty poorly of late and might have missed some postings but can someone tell me when this so called Pro build was entered. There is a chance I did see it but it might have slipped my mind, a lot of things do these days.

Sam. 

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That said, other than the machine work for the fork swap, the exhaust (obviously), mounting the tires and painting the body work, EVERYTHING else was done by me (sometimes with help from my Dad or girlfriend) at home. I'm pretty proud of that.
 And if nothing else, I have vision. Just working on acquiring the skills to build what I see in my head.

That is one of the reasons why your builds are so admired, Scott.

[calj737]

That is one of the reasons why your builds are so admired, Scott.

Personally, I am only friends with him because I admire his Dad so much, and you can't get to spend time with Pops unless his bratty kid is around 

[Camrector]

I will add my 2cents because I feel somewhat responsible for my comment about last month being unfair towards Scott.
While i feel it’s hard to compare a “high dollar bike” to a “home build” sometimes,  as in this month, that’s how the cookie crumbles. Don, and others , do an amazing job scouring the forum looking for multiple completed projects to even nominate.
At the end of the day just putting the old ladies back together and better than they were is reward enough. The nomination by your peers is icing.
Diluting the BOTM with different categories would make Dons job damn near impossible month to month, and BOTM would suffer.
One suggestion/idea would be to take every nominated bike and do a 3-4 category BOTY. That would be fun.
I apologize if my comment started any turmoil.
Cam

[seanbarney41]

One suggestion/idea would be to take every nominated bike and do a 3-4 category BOTY. That would be fun.

That's brilliant!

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

One suggestion/idea would be to take every nominated bike and do a 3-4 category BOTY. That would be fun.

That's brilliant!

There's definitely some appeal to this idea.

[Camrector]

I would definantly help sort, and categorize Don.
Anyway I can