Author Topic: 400F sputtering/rich at idle  (Read 7899 times)

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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2017, 01:47:54 PM »
you have to heigh fuel level..if some jets also is Loose the fuel vill sump the vhole carburettor..but try to start the engine vith closed fuel tap..and fresh plugs..or heat them all up use a gas burner..it vill help them burn dry..and blow kompressed air dovn through the plug holes..so all is relative dry..and klean..and then try to start the engine..and hold it going..and turn the fuel on..and see if it help
strynboen, I think has the correct diagnosis, and his suggestion to start the engine while dry, with the fuel tap off, corroborates this. When you turned on the tap, the fuel level then went back to its too high mark, and you are now sooting up the plugs again. I would lower the fuel level in the float bowls, and see if that doesn't cure your problem.

Definitely the best results yet. It also appear that we got fire across all cylinders that time.
Pulled the plugs (burned the carbon off) and I can see that 3-4 had sign of slight wetness but not wet-wet like before. Should I back out the air-mix screw say another 1/4 turn on 3-4?

Try the float levels lower.
Charlie


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Offline Tim2005

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2017, 03:04:40 PM »
Hi again. If the above doesn't cure it fully, In order to eliminate any suspicions of ignition problems, you can swap HT leads around between 2 and 3,  and  between 1 and 4. If the current cylinder symptoms remain unchanged then it's not your ignition. 

What's the history of the engine? Many miles on it? Has it been standing a long while? Have you checked the compression?

Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2017, 03:17:18 PM »
Hey, Tim. The bike had been sitting for at least over a year, outdoors yet under one of those cheap motorcycle covers. Very low miles at 17,500. It sat so I popped the carbs off to find that the bowls were well varnished and the floats were on the sticky side so an ultrasonic bath and some TLC was given to them...
Doing the ol’ thumb over the spark plug socket hole and cranking the engine bit, I can feel that there is compression across all four cylinders.

I haven’t tried swapping the plug wires but now that I’m this far down the rabbit hole I suppose that might be worth trying. Thanks!


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2017, 11:00:06 PM »
Just a crazy thought maybe but are you sure you have connected the fuelline correctly and not accidentely to the vent tube?
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Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2017, 11:01:00 PM »
Hmmm


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Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2017, 11:03:48 PM »
I kinda wish that were the case


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2017, 11:43:37 PM »
If the floats are hung in correctly and you have no fuel coming out of the overflow tubes, well... this is a tough one. Fuel level in 1-3 seems perfect, 4 a bit high maybe. BTW, does the oil (dipstick) smell of gas? There is the theoretical possibility that the tips of the needles don't fit well in the conical topside of the main jets, but I haven't heard of that one yet.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 07:59:55 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2017, 10:43:21 AM »
I do get a tinge of gasoline smell on the dip stick.


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Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2017, 07:05:07 PM »
I decided to give this a shot, Tim. Well, I think we can rule out the ignition system. I swapped 1-4 and 2-3 (actually had to swap coil positions to make the wires reach) and I’m getting the same soot to build up as I’ve been getting, from rich to lean on 1 to 4.

Well, looks like it’s gonna be carb removal time.

Hi again. If the above doesn't cure it fully, In order to eliminate any suspicions of ignition problems, you can swap HT leads around between 2 and 3,  and  between 1 and 4. If the current cylinder symptoms remain unchanged then it's not your ignition. 

What's the history of the engine? Many miles on it? Has it been standing a long while? Have you checked the compression?



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Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2017, 07:38:56 PM »
Should the rubber boots on all the air box parts be sealed with a silicone-type adhesive or gasket material? Is that important or do these look fine so long as they are not cracked, which they are not (they just have the ability to spin around but they are tight):


Frankly, I’m a air pods kinda guy myself and haven’t had this much issues with the carbs like on this bike. Sheesh.



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Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2017, 12:59:43 AM »
Huge leaps and bounds tonight! It’s now hopefully up to a little tweaking and carb sync here and there and this bike will be safely back on the road soon. I hope.

Because it’s gotten quite late tonight I’ll quickly go over some of the wild findings; all carb related:

1) Throttle valves were not all oriented correctly - the cutouts were not all facing the choke valves. This was uncovered upon checking the...

2) Needle heights were not consistent. #2 and #4 were on the 5th from the top groove (now correctly adjusted back to stock third groove from the top), #3 and #1 were on the stock 3rd groove from the top.

I’m excited to finally get somewhere with the issues. I’m not sure what the previous repair person was going through (not even the #3 main jet was consistent with the others), but they were trying to make something work somehow? I’m just happy to feel all the pipes get hot.

Thank you all!

We are not done yet though. Got some more tweaking around to do so I will check back. Good night.


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2017, 01:22:57 AM »
The things people do to carbs... Glad to hear you discovered it. Now here's an observtion I wanted to post long time ago. It always strikes me that so much messing with the carbs is going on in US and so little in Europe. Maybe the users of Clymer manuals should read the Haynes manual (used more in Europe) on carbs for a change. That could explain why so few here go at the needles at all.
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Offline AndyH

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2017, 02:18:14 AM »
The things people do to carbs... Glad to hear you discovered it. Now here's an observtion I wanted to post long time ago. It always strikes me that so much messing with the carbs is going on in US and so little in Europe. Maybe the users of Clymer manuals should read the Haynes manual (used more in Europe) on carbs for a change. That could explain why so few here go at the needles at all.


Or the genuine Honda Shop Manual (which you steered me towards, a while back DR!  ;) )
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Offline strynboen

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2017, 02:38:06 AM »
The things people do to carbs... Glad to hear you discovered it. Now here's an observtion I wanted to post long time ago. It always strikes me that so much messing with the carbs is going on in US and so little in Europe. Maybe the users of Clymer manuals should read the Haynes manual (used more in Europe) on carbs for a change. That could explain why so few here go at the needles at all.
..can be becorse ve only are 100 cb sohc drivers in Europa  and 1000 in us...så they have-%... a lot more problems...but the battery/tender loader problomatic is pure a us symptom/syndrom..in euorpa all batteries hold power night over vitaut extra suply..
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:40:10 AM by strynboen »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2017, 03:13:10 AM »
The things people do to carbs... Glad to hear you discovered it. Now here's an observtion I wanted to post long time ago. It always strikes me that so much messing with the carbs is going on in US and so little in Europe. Maybe the users of Clymer manuals should read the Haynes manual (used more in Europe) on carbs for a change. That could explain why so few here go at the needles at all.


Or the genuine Honda Shop Manual (which you steered me towards, a while back DR!  ;) )
Ofcourse the Honda Shop Manual is supposed to show everything in detail to demonstrate how to reach any part possible. The people that composed the Haynes - although they made mistakes - knew from experience - be it a little - what would be likely causes and what not and shared this. Clymer just shows anything without mentioning the likeliness of an occuring problem. And then you have the 'experts' that echo what they've found in manuals and schemes, proud as a horse with two dicks that they at least managed to copy something right.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:21:18 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2017, 03:30:53 AM »
Huge leaps and bounds tonight! It’s now hopefully up to a little tweaking and carb sync here and there and this bike will be safely back on the road soon. I hope.

Because it’s gotten quite late tonight I’ll quickly go over some of the wild findings; all carb related:

1) Throttle valves were not all oriented correctly - the cutouts were not all facing the choke valves. This was uncovered upon checking the...

2) Needle heights were not consistent. #2 and #4 were on the 5th from the top groove (now correctly adjusted back to stock third groove from the top), #3 and #1 were on the stock 3rd groove from the top.

I’m excited to finally get somewhere with the issues. I’m not sure what the previous repair person was going through (not even the #3 main jet was consistent with the others), but they were trying to make something work somehow? I’m just happy to feel all the pipes get hot.

Thank you all!

We are not done yet though. Got some more tweaking around to do so I will check back. Good night.


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Glad to hear you found the root of your problem. It sounds like the PO was tweaking the carbs, but did it partially, and might have forgotten what he had done, and never finished the job. IMHO there should Never be different needle settings across the carb bank, and definitely not different jets, either. As for the throttle valves not being oriented correctly, are you referring to the slides? If so, most carb slides can't be turned around backwards unless they were swapped from opposing carb bodies, as in twins that have mirror image carburetors... hmmm.
As for manuals, I like a well-rounded approach, so I get as many as I can, for each one has stuff the others neglected to tell you, or didn't think you needed to know lol... Kinda like translations of the Bible, except different translations tell you the same thing, with different wording... You can never have too many, and if you don't understand one, try the same passage in another to give you the right understanding of what is being said.
Charlie
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2017, 04:25:44 AM »
Cool, glad you got into the needles! Yeah, some carbs have the ability to have the slides spin around, most not. Seems like you're on the home stretch.

Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2017, 08:15:41 AM »
Thanks, Y’all! Yes, feels like I’m finally on the home stretch.

As for the “throttle valves”, yes, I was referring to the slides (and that’s terminology coming straight outta the Honda Shop Manual, the pdf one stamped with “www.ClassicCycles.org”. Now I’m wondering if this is a good source to be using). The cut outs on these slides were not all facing the choke valves consistently, like they’d been turned around. Somebody has definitely been in the carbs before, for sure.

It got pretty late last night and I started tuning the carbs a bit to get them in a closer range as they were wildly mismatched. Well, I ran out of fuel and I think the float on #2 got stuck because now it seems to be leaking from the overflow. Argh! I tried tapping it around and shaking the bike around to no avail; the float would not release itself. So, I gotta pop off the carbs again to get it unstuck.

There are these tiny tabs on the floats that are supposed to prevent them from traveling down a certain distance, either up or down toward the bottom of the bowls, I forget. Can those tabs be adjusted? Not advisable? I was thinking if I bent them just slightly a certain way then I wouldn’t run into this issue of stuck floats when running on low fuel.


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« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:19:38 AM by minimo »

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2017, 08:25:01 AM »
Can you just pop the bowl off? If it won't release with tapping from a screwdriver handle you might have a dimple in the float tang. Pretty common but sometimes it's enough to really keep it down, acting like a detent in a helmet visor. Some people solder a brass strip on it to give it more life, but then you'd have to readjust float height obviously.

I think I know the tang you're talking about if you can adjust it where it doesn't hang too low then that could help.

Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2017, 08:27:45 AM »
#2 bowl is pretty darn difficult to get to while still on the bike - I also don’t have the luxury of a moto lift to get the bike up in a more comfy position. Unless, there’s a trick to somehow get up in there to reach #2 bowl...


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2017, 08:53:58 AM »
#2 bowl is pretty darn difficult to get to while still on the bike - I also don’t have the luxury of a moto lift to get the bike up in a more comfy position. Unless, there’s a trick to somehow get up in there to reach #2 bowl...


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Sometimes opening and closing the fuel tap (couple of times) with the drainscrew out, helps. Maybe you could try to lift the float a bit with a toothpick through the drain opening. Floatproblems like after hibernation I address from below leaving the carbrack in situ. But I have replaced  crossheads by little allen screws long time ago and 500 carbs are a bit bigger (not much).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 10:42:53 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Redline it

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2017, 09:44:03 AM »
hi minimo, if you're taking the carbs out again, i'd be checking the needle valve operation if you still have the aftermarket needle and it's seat installed, just that alone will give you intermittent nightmares, and if that new set works well, you might be 1 remarkably lucky person, because they are very rarely ok. to check them in the carbs (i know you know this,) on the bench can add 15 more complete removals of the bowls to try again, so take them out, the needle and the seat, put the seat in the end of a plastic tube and then put the needle in so that you can at least test the amount of any failures based on the needle position (as it may spin around in the bike.)  wet the jet first with some spit works alright, hold the needle in place w/tip of your finger, into the seat and with the tube in your mouth create a slight vacuum while touching the needle spring tip and released positions, and rotate the needle to various positions. you don't nor shouldn't have to inhale to do this, like drinking a chocolate malt out of a straw. if any one has trouble being consistent and you have tried rewetting it i'd take them out, along with any other aftermarket jet in the system (it should hold a vacuum with no effort at all, by just  barely touching it, no slight leaks allowed.)

i didn't see in the post if you got the ignition set right on, if you did cool, if not, and the advancer looks good, cleaned and dry (no grease on the pickup blocks and if any on the inner advancer shaft, make sure it's very little, i run it dry,) and after you place the plate over the shaft with it's screws in place but not tight, to put the special nut on  with the long 6mm bolt you can kick over the motor or use the starter with the kill switch in the off pos,  to see if the bolt doesn't oscillate, if it does move around up and down or whatever, loosen it (by the way when making these ignition adjustments never bear down and try to tighten bolts and nuts tight, just a snug fit until you get it right then only a little snug more,) and reposition the big special nut to try to get it to run straight, if you have trouble with that, bolt might be bent and has to be straight. if it is, cool, be careful torquing that long bolt. the plate: if your bike is relatively new with under 5k miles, following the directions to time the ignition would probably be the way to go. if not, and your symptoms are showing that, following the settings instructions can be troublesome, either this time or times down the road, if you ride the bike daily, then every 6
 to 12 months you'll be doing this again and it's good to know alternative ways to adjust that plate and points. because of play in the plate in it's housing moves it'll throw off dwell, and advance every time you move the plate for both sets of points. it'll have a mind of it's own, but getting this part set is the easiest to get to and get it right to rule out any thing to do with it. your symptoms again sound like ignition problems. iv'e used the same plug caps since early 80s, same plug wires and coils. same ignition. plugs last about 10,000 miles.

i was going to send the examples of problems you might run into following the manual directions, it's too complicated, but what i did to dial it in so easy that it surprised me. if you have problems with the f marks getting lined up using a strobe while the points dwells are set, then watch how far off the F mark is and which way the f mark moves or comes into range by adjusting the dwell while running, you might get the concept of the 2 relationships in a used bike. so to make it easy to start with is adjust the points 1-4 not to spec but off in the direction opposite of which way the f mark was moving, because what you want is to finish the timing adjustment by dialing in the dwell last, if you know what i mean, because going back and forth and timing the plate last will always throw off the dwell, so watching the f mark with the strobe while making the final dwell adjustment on the points, and if it doesn't line up the mark, move the plate again first in the range it was off, finish with the dwell settings.  if you can get that then you don't have to move the plate again, then points 2-3 have no excuse to cause any problems that's a 2 minute operation. i've heard about making micro shims to keep the plate from having play, and or slightly peening the plate holder tabs to result in less play. both to me are only adding another part to have hold in and drop and can't find to have to work with. I know the plate is loose and this method i'm describing eliminates all worries and headaches. probably confusing, but it works like a champ. it's much harder to grasp the idea, than if i were able to show you, you'd be like trippin out. it's that easy. but it has to be nearly perfect to run like a 400f should. i forgot the advance check, they normally function right and if not bending the tabs on them or changing spring tension is a shot in the dark again. putting another advancer on it is better.

I wrote about it before and of course it didn't go over well with anybody that i know of, and if it is because of running a motor with far advanced ignition timing will damage a motor, so their remedy to prevent that means to follow the order of the manual's system of timing, they have a point, if the motor is bucking from way too far advanced shut it off then back the plate up a bit,  the whole idea to my weird fix is to get the plate set with the dwell right on, without having to loosen the plate after setting the points correctly on. to me that's backwards, when you can't get the f mark to come into view the moment you loosen the plate screws. when you can't get it into view, then note which way it moves when adjusting the dwell and when you know which way it's moving, then you can start with the points but don't set it on .016, set it off the opposite direction so that when you set the "timing" of the plate (that couldn't hit the f mark) by guessing the distance off you need to set it, to have the dwell be the final adjustment that brings both together at one that dwell adjustment.  hope i didn't step on anybody's toes, i'm not assuming anyone isn't experts at this, except me, and that's after over 35 years riding the same bike. I do all the work myself. just luck. never crashed it, and i ride it without babying it at all. they're built to run crazy high rpm. never throw any parts away (except maybe those jets.) 4 into 1 claimed they've never had anyone complain nor have had any problems with the thousands they sell. I was like, then here take em back and sell them to someone else, or at least look at them from the desk and try to get 3 out of 4 of the needle jets to even come close to sealing, I couldn't. they told me to assemble them and then test it. if i can't get get a seal even without a tube just put the seat in my mouth and put the needle in, i can tell immediately if it's ok or not. they were offended. 3 out of 4 couldn't seal by all attempts, even pressing very hard. why put them in? and the other jets looked extremely off from one to the other in visual orifice light that bore through. a pilot jet is so small that the light coming through distorts the actual circle on good jets, 4 into 1's were so large the hole was visible, the were stock sizes 40 and 75 mains and pilot. the mains looked like they were hand drilled. i asked them to check them and let me know if i was the one that was not right, i asked 2 times they wouldn't do it.   

Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2017, 10:40:42 AM »
Thanks, RedLine it. I did get the ignition set as best as I could and even put a dwell on the gaps and I set each of them to around 47.5 and fingers crossed they stay. After a short ride around I was planning on taking the strobe back on to examine the F marks on both sides to see if they moved any.

It sounds like it is best to try and maintain the original carb parts or stick with Keihin. Should a Honda parts dealer still be able to source Keihin parts for these bikes? Or, is jetsrus.com about the only resource out there these days?


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« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:21:55 AM by minimo »

Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2017, 11:17:20 AM »
Oh, and I decided I'd reuse the OEM float valve/seats. I didn't like how the springs on the aftermarket ones felt stiff and I couldn't get a decent polish on the flutes/edges of the needles even after a generous ultra fine sanding and a buffing out of the seats (of course a meticulous clean up with carb cleaner followed). So yeah, I decided that the only aftermarket parts that I felt was generally "fool proof" to use were the size 40 pilot jets. Seems to be working ok at the moment.

I did manage to remove the carb rack again and set #2 carb float free. The float needle seemed to be stuck open in the seat as I tried to maintain the carbs in its upright position. I took out the float needle and gave it a light polish on the flutes, being careful of course not to scrape the needle point at all, cleaned it up and oiled it with MMO and voila; stuck no more. Hope this maintains.

Going out for a short ride in a bit to get the bike warmed up for a final carb synch and strobe test. Get this bike back to its owner and out of my stinky garage!

Thank you all!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:24:00 AM by minimo »

Offline minimo

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Re: 400F sputtering/rich at idle
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2017, 02:46:28 PM »
Final strobe test and carbs all tuned. Pipes are hot across the board and that makes me happy.

Thank you all so much!



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