Author Topic: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle  (Read 4299 times)

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Offline Kawahonda

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CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« on: January 06, 2018, 01:35:49 PM »
Hi all,

There was a thread that I posted to recently and there was a great response by a member, but now it seems to be gone?

Anyhow, after letting the CB750 warm up for several minutes, if you twist the throttle at medium velocity, or hell, even "gently" the bike will sputter and die. From my experience, it seems like a lean sound. The previous reply on the other tread said that the problem is probably still my carbs, which have been recently rebuild completely. This problem only started recently. I agree that it's probably something with the carbs, being that I rechecked the timing (didn't use the dwell method, just the strait up FSM method) and made sure there were no fuel clogs in the system.

So today I took off the airbox. I can confirm that all four throats are receiving an equal amount of squirts.

What I did however notice, is that it doesn't squirt during the first partial turn of the throttle, about 3mm of travel will pass before squirting when measured up at the handle grip. This 3mm does not include cable slack, this is from when the pistons start the travel to where the accelerator pump is squirting the throats, and by that time, the pistons have well already started travel, since they begin travel immediately.

This may, or may not be the issue, but if I had to guess, I would guess that the accelerator pump should be squirting the throats immediately and there shouldn't be any delay. This seems to align with how the bike is behaving, because that "initial" twist is during the first part of the travel, and it's simply not getting the fuel it needs at first.

What could this mean? Is it as simple as my throttle needing to be adjusted?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 01:42:14 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
Have you checked the accelerator pump adjustments per chapter 24 of the Honda CB750 Shop manual?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2018, 02:44:58 PM »
That's pretty much my next step. I'm assuming that the carbs need to come off for this, correct?

Just measured the clearance. It's about .110mm.

That's technically "in spec", but I feel like it wouldn't hurt to bend the tang more.

Shouldn't need to remove the carbs to adjust this...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 03:22:10 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2018, 04:29:21 PM »
Adjusted the tang to where there was effectively no clearance. Didn't seem to solve the issue.

I have the carbs on the bench. I took the bowls, emulsion tubes, jets, floats off. I inspected all the jets and found no clogs. Pretty clean internals.

I'm not going to to fool with the slide assembly unless I don't have to, so I left the top caps on.

Aside from cleaning jets, emulsion tubes, and checking the "arm to carburetor" spec, what else can I do with this? Is there a good picture-by-picture guide on these carbs so I know what to go over and focus on? I’d like to also know what areas I can spray with carb cleaner.

These were rebuilt 3 years ago, with about 150 miles on them. Trying to not having to overdo things that were already done

I found this video on YouTube, and this is exactly what’s happening to mine:


« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 04:40:38 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2018, 05:29:30 PM »
Are the holes in the diaphragm clear and wide open?

Have you proven that the accel pump check valve both seal closed and fully open properly?

Are the restrictors inside the couplings between carbs still there?  These make all the squirters spit equal amounts into each carb throat.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2018, 06:16:30 PM »
don't get any carb cleaner on that diaphragm.  It is easily ruined and I am not even sure they hold up to ethanol adequately.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 10:01:50 AM »
Thanks all. I'll take a look at the diaphragm today and the check valve. I'll also inquire about the restrictors.

Is the diaphragm the only thing to keep the carb cleaner away from?

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2018, 10:14:48 AM »
Generally good practice to keep carb cleaner off any rubber or plastic parts but some rubber and plastic is more resistant than others and some carb cleaner is stronger than others, so the safe thing to do is be careful.  Don't let rubber and plastic parts soak in it. 
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2018, 12:22:28 PM »
I'll take a look at the diaphragm today and the check valve. I'll also inquire about the restrictors.

Just for clarification, the accel pump has two check valves.

The restrictors often get tossed because they make the rubber seem very hard, and is interpreted as too aged.  New rubber is nice. It's not always better, if the baby was tossed with the bathwater.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2018, 05:54:01 PM »
On the bottom pump accelerator "bowl",  this must be one passage way to the valve, since I'm able to blow hard on it and allow air to pass, I'm assuming it's good. The other valve is located on the casing of the bowl, and that valve works the same way. So I'm assuming the valves are good.

The accelerator pump restrictors have gotten new hoses, looks like. All hose connections have a hard piece inside. I haven't dissembled that part yet. I didn't notice any single carb throat getting more of a squirt that the others, so I'm not sure if it's worth a lot of effort to take it all apart. Does doing so require disassembling the carbs completely?

The mickey mouse ears look clear...

The picture below are WITHOUT cleaning...you can tell it's pretty clean already.

The last picture shows the fuel hose inlet (bottom) and the top, which isn't capped or anything. It appears to be a valve that allows fuel to come out when the carbs are tilted upside down. :)

Next step?






« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 06:01:06 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2018, 07:23:03 PM »
On the bottom pump accelerator "bowl",  this must be one passage way to the valve, since I'm able to blow hard on it and allow air to pass, I'm assuming it's good. The other valve is located on the casing of the bowl, and that valve works the same way. So I'm assuming the valves are good.
Details.
It's a one way valve.  You can blow air both ways?  Actually I usually use caned aerosol carb cleaner to prove fluid can only go one way.

The accelerator pump restrictors have gotten new hoses, looks like. All hose connections have a hard piece inside. I haven't dissembled that part yet. I didn't notice any single carb throat getting more of a squirt that the others, so I'm not sure if it's worth a lot of effort to take it all apart. Does doing so require disassembling the carbs completely?
Yeah.  You happy with/trust a prior persons work?  If so, live with it, I guess.

The last picture shows the fuel hose inlet (bottom) and the top, which isn't capped or anything. It appears to be a valve that allows fuel to come out when the carbs are tilted upside down. :) 

You talking about the vent for all the fuel bowls?  Its essential for atmospheric pressure to apply force to the top of the fuel in the bowls.

Next step?

Look at the spark plug deposits.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2018, 08:11:17 PM »
Well, I do know that air can only pass one way with those valves after mouth testing...

Jets are 110/35. I'm at about 2800ft altitude. I also have a k&n filter in the air box.

I'm happy enough with the last person's work to not have to disassembly the carbs completely.

So far, I guess we're not finding much amiss?

The carbs were also sync a couple years ago with a motion pro gauge.

I can certainly pull the plugs and take a look.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 08:31:39 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline rotortiller

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2018, 10:03:09 PM »
Play with the choke blocking amount while operating the throttle and see if it improves would be my first move. My second would be to drive it doing the same. Stock mains are 115 so 110s are in the ball park. Mixture screws turn the opposite direction to other carbs (CCW is richer I believe, but check the book). They all do what you are experiencing to a degree, depending on how fast and far you open the throttle.

Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 09:19:53 AM »
I remembered trying this with the choke on and still had the same problem.

I'll take pictures of my plugs today.

Otherwise, I think I'm going to measure the arm clearance, clean it up, and put it all back together unless there's anything else I need to check?

Should I got back to a stock air filter, and ditch the K&N? Any reason I should be re-jetting slightly? If the K8 came from the factory lean, then the K&N will just lean it more...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:25:06 AM by Kawahonda »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 11:48:54 AM »
The spark plug deposits give direct evidence of mixture conditions.  I does take a bit of fun out of guesswork, though.

Has the spring in the pump diaphragm been replaced?  Does the spring on the pump actuating arm still seem firm and installed correctly?

I wonder if changing spring forces is delaying actuation.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 02:09:45 PM »
The re-builder said that he's fairly sure he replaced the accel pump spring; it was a kit.

Keep in mind, it was doing this before the rebuild. After the rebuild, this issue lessened in severity. I played with the timing to completely eliminate it, so as far I know, it was a combination of the carb rebuild and the timing that solved it for me in the past. But only recently, it reared it's ugly head back up.

First thing I did was go to the timing, and found that it was off. So, I set the points gap is set in the dead center of the tolerance range on 1-4 and 2-3, and my test light lead comes on EXACTLY at the right time, so I know timing is very spot on, by the book. OEM points/condenser, and those also don't have very many miles on them. I confirmed that the advancer seems very tight with a strobe...no oscillation or anything. Of course if I "mildly" wrap the throttle with the strobe, it only advances half way while it sputters until I back off and slowly bring it up. Anyhow, the advancing mech seems tight. So I'm pretty sure I ruled out everything with the timing system.

I noticed on the carbs a week ago that the air mix screws were 2-3 turns from all the way in, which is way out of spec. It's been that way for a few years, so hopefully it doesn't confuse what the plugs show. I backed those down to 1.5 turns from all the way in, but didn't impact this issue. I think those were originally set by a 40-50 year old exhaust analyzer (a "Heathkit"), and I've only recently started to question its accuracy. Also as I've mentioned, I removed all clearance between the pump rod and the "tab", which didn't have any impac (yes, you can do this while the carbs are still installed). I also tightened up the air boots (some screws were lose) which didn't have any impact either.

It's about 30F here. I let the bike warm up for several minutes (7 minutes or so). Perhaps I should let the bike warm up for much longer before trying to twist the throttle grip? When it's able to idle perfectly and smoothly without choke, I've been deeming that as "good to twist the throttle!"

Thanks for the continuing help! Nope, I don't expect it to "wrap" like a new bike, but I don't feel that I have to be "careful" with the throttle if I wanted to rev it!

I'll post pictures of the plugs tonight. I'll also run a drill bit through the mouse ears to clean them up a bit. We'll go from there!

I've noticed on previous threads that "lucky" recommends a larger pilot jet, like a #40, but my bike is bone stock (accept for the K&N filter)...so not sure.  Hopefully tonight you can help me determine a list of what to order so I can slap it all back together.

One thing that I found interesting is that when I obtained the bike long ago, it had individual filter pods. The bike ran pretty darn good with them (no wrap issues), except for on windy days at high speed. Interestingly enough, the jets were all stock for the bike. So I wonder if the jets have been drilled or tampered with so that it could run good with the pods, which is causing running issues when I got the bike back to "stock" with the airbox? I remembered awhile back when I put the airbox on, I didn't touch the carb, and the bike immediately ran even better (more consistant acceleration and more low end) so not sure...

Anyhow, just shooting the breeze here.

Twotired, it sounds like you think the "squirt" should be instant, the moment the throttle lever is moved on the carbs...if that's the case, I will certainly check that as well.



« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 02:16:05 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 04:36:18 PM »
There are two carb reasons for stumble on accel.  Too lean or too rich.

There are other reasons, such as spark plug insulators carbon fouled and shunting spark energy away from the gap.  This is a secondary issue which must be dealt with before the primary too rich issue is fully sorted, as it will "take over" poor operation as cause.

Operationally, a too rich setting will sputter/burble back to life when the engine recovers.  Too lean and the engine behaves like it was switched off, and resumes like it was switched back on when it recovers operation.

Carbon fouled plugs are the result of a too rich mixture at some throttle setting.  It is also important that the spark plug deposits look the same for each cylinder.

The IMS screws were supposed to be set with a sensitive tachometer, turning each for the max idle RPM.  This would be the leanest setting that will still support idle.

Not at all surprising that IMS setting would be "enriched" for pod use.  Pods bring atmospheric pressure much closer to the carb throat, which reduces fuel volume for all the metering devices in the carb, necessitating larger orifices to restore proper A/F ratios.  Fuel orifices flow in volume relative to the pressure differential presented to them.

Have you ever verified the actual fuel level inside the float bowl chamber, and that they are the same for each position?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 05:41:36 PM »
I will check float height during assembly.

This is actually what the bike is doing:

See pic for plugs. I was pumping a lot of gas in there recently testing the pump and the bike has only been running a few times over the winter just to idle, a lot of time with the choke on.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 05:46:21 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 07:10:53 PM »
Watched the video.
Sure seems to act like an accel pump issue to me.  My F2 750 behaved like that until I got the accel pump working properly.

However, know that the white porcelain of the spark plug is an electrical insulator to keep electrical current from taking a shortcut to the plug body.
That black coating is soot/carbon, which is an electrical conductor.  Can you say cross purposes?

If you want to keep using those plugs, you'll have to remove the carbon coating on the porcelain.  And this needs to be done before you find out why they are sooting up.  Excessive choke operation "can" be a cause all by itself. Then again...

The soot is normally burned off after the engine gets to operating temp and cruise RPM.  Short of that, you can use D7EA plugs for cold weather operation.  They are a hotter plug, which will help burn off that soot.  Will shorten warm up time, too.

What is of concern is that your plugs show different deposit patterns, indicating not all cylinders are operating equally.  No acceptable reason for this to be the case.  You need to find out what is different and causing this.

Compression equal?
tappet settings equal?
Air leaks in some of the intake runners?
Carb sync unequal?
Carbs providing equal mixtures?

4 to 4 exhaust equal?  (no mouse nests?)

You got some "splainin' to do, Lucy?  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2018, 07:41:20 PM »
I will check float height during assembly.

Verify the setting with the clear tube test.
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Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2018, 07:55:27 PM »
Good response. I'll answer you in bits as I go over everything.

* Carbs are assembled, sans bowls. checking float level @ 14.5mm right now. How do you guys recommend setting the floats? Do you go with the lay the carbs upside down and let the float rest on the spring, then test, or do you hold the carbs at an angle to where the float tab barely touches the float, then test?

* Then I will proceed to bench them and test the "squirt". How much squirt distance should I expect?

* Bike as 15k miles (according to the speedo). Compression (hot) is (starting with #1): 148, 136, 144, 143.5 @ 2600ft using a motorcycle gauge.

* I will order the D7EA plugs. That sounds like a good idea for the colder weather.

* Valves were checked about 600 miles ago. I suppose I could check them again...

* I will make sure there are no air leaks when it's reassembled.

* I will shine a light in my exhaust. The PO (or someone) drilled holes in the rear baffles. Must have been popular in the day for sound? I don't suspect I'd see any rats nests. Some of the baffles sound warn.

* There is a minor oil leak around #1 spark plug. I've always assumed a valve cover leak. It's hardly noticable though, only on long rides. Nothing drips on the ground.

Scottly, can you link to the "clear tube" test? Edit: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135470.0.html
* Good idea, and I'll do that when I get the carbs back on. I suppose any 1/4" clear how will do?

« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:24:32 PM by Kawahonda »

Offline Kawahonda

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2018, 08:58:10 PM »
I think I've found one issue, at least one major issue.

Keep in mind I mix-matched the floats (didn't really keep track what float came off of what carb), but I'm finding the float heights are set WAYYYYYYY too low. Instead of 14.5mm (which is basically at the end of the pilot jet), I'm reading heights around 18mm.

That could attribute to a lean condition, me thinks...and may explain what's going on...?

Offline rotortiller

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 03:54:47 AM »
It would be interesting to see what is installed for a needle jet and the clip position. These are old bikes and alot of hands have been at them.

Offline Bodi

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 06:01:58 AM »
Float level is set with the tang touching the needle without compressing the spring, carbs held at an angle. The clear tube test should confirm the setting is correct and the valves are working properly.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB750K 77-78 Carb "Sputter" when wrap throttle
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 08:41:46 AM »
I think I've found one issue, at least one major issue.

Keep in mind I mix-matched the floats (didn't really keep track what float came off of what carb), but I'm finding the float heights are set WAYYYYYYY too low. Instead of 14.5mm (which is basically at the end of the pilot jet), I'm reading heights around 18mm.

That could attribute to a lean condition, me thinks...and may explain what's going on...?

Are you aware that the floats need to have the huge flat part facing down?

Do compare yours to what is pictured in the Honda Shop manual supplements.

Not a good idea to mix up parts that have been working together for 40 years,  imo.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.