Author Topic: Welding question  (Read 2942 times)

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Offline bert96

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Welding question
« on: January 12, 2018, 10:21:13 AM »
I would like to install a monza cap(alloy) on a steel tank.My question is,is it possible to weld or glue aluminum to steel?

Bert
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 10:50:29 AM »
I've just found that,

Araldite speed metal,it seem to do the job...someone know this product?
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 11:03:33 AM »
It bond all metals....so where is the problem?
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Offline demon78

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 05:00:30 PM »
From my time playing with Airplanes if I remember correctly you run the risk of intergranular corrosion or dissimilar metal corrosion, unfortunately I don't remember if there is a fix or work around that we can access as relatively poor citizens (ones with out huge machines or chemists at our beck and call) I do believe that was something asked on one of my first Trade Boards in the RCAF from about late 1957 and it had to do with an engine mount in a P 51 Mustang or the main spar in an Avro Lancaster now to bad some times I forget to breath oh well.
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:15:39 PM by demon78 »

Offline J-Rod10

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 05:53:39 PM »
You can braze it.

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 05:55:48 PM »
Everybody seem to say no!?  Are you sure?

Bert
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Offline J-Rod10

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 06:00:48 PM »
http://www.esabna.com/us/en/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.product&productCode=1088

Technically, I suppose it would be soldering.

This stuff is purpose built to join alloy to practically any metal outside of magnesium.

Offline Davez134

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 06:10:09 PM »
I'd love to join in this conversation, but right now I can barely weld aluminum to aluminum. ;D

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 06:16:58 PM »
I found a forum(in french) who someone asked the same question and the Araldite epoxy seem to work very well.It would be easier and a lot faster with this method...call me lazy! ;)

Bert


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Offline J-Rod10

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 06:40:04 PM »
I'd love to join in this conversation, but right now I can barely weld aluminum to aluminum. ;D
Well if you can develop a means for welding steel to aluminum your name will be Archimedes  ;)

Somebody did that already. You can, apparently, arc weld steel to alloy.

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/blog/can-i-weld-aluminum-to-steel.cfm

Offline 2wheels

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 06:58:38 PM »
So i dont know.
But i was wondering, if you copper plate the aluminum and the steel. Can you silver solder the two pieces together?
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Offline scottly

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 07:18:33 PM »
Bert, for what it's worth, the Monza cap on my Seeley was glued to the aluminum tank with a clear looking epoxy; I found this out after the epoxy failed after 20 years of exposure to fumes. I glued it back on using J B weld, and it's still holding after another 20 plus years. ;D Mind you, the cap fit over a close fitting stub on the top of the tank, so the epoxy is very thin, with only a small surface exposed. J B Wet-weld is an epoxy putty that is supposed to be more fuel resistant than regular J B; I've recently used it to repair a plastic fuel pump housing with good results, knock on wood.
How does the Monza cap fit onto your tank? 
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Offline scottly

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 07:22:28 PM »
Aluminum is not a metal; it’s an alloy.
Aluminum is indeed a metal, and can be in a pure state or alloyed with other metals. ::)
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Offline FuZZie

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2018, 09:03:06 PM »
I think I would trust JB weld more like Scottly is suggesting.

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2018, 02:19:09 AM »
Bert, for what it's worth, the Monza cap on my Seeley was glued to the aluminum tank with a clear looking epoxy; I found this out after the epoxy failed after 20 years of exposure to fumes. I glued it back on using J B weld, and it's still holding after another 20 plus years. ;D Mind you, the cap fit over a close fitting stub on the top of the tank, so the epoxy is very thin, with only a small surface exposed. J B Wet-weld is an epoxy putty that is supposed to be more fuel resistant than regular J B; I've recently used it to repair a plastic fuel pump housing with good results, knock on wood.
How does the Monza cap fit onto your tank? 

This is what i wanted to hear!! 😊
I bought the cap and the tank last week from ebay for my cb77,did not recieved the parts yet.Maybe i will stretch the tank a little bit,we'll see.Here's a link,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/9L-2-4-Gallon-Cafe-Racer-Motorcycle-Gas-Fuel-Tank-For-Honda-Suzuki-Yamaha-BMW-US/362173068000?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47301%26meid%3Dfbeb1dff6ebb43839c551d26d9629fa2%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D292343548701&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Monza-Alloy-Petrol-Tank-Fuel-Flip-Cap-With-Filler-Neck-Cafe-Racer-AJS-BSA-2-1-2/262923098808?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47301%26meid%3D22e3e0efe0ea45109e6c44c576d96916%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D192351088570&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Bert

QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2018, 04:05:50 AM »
Yes,i'll cut the the tank and then glue the bung.
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2018, 05:11:16 AM »

If you actually took the time to read that, you’d realize with bimetallic inserts you weld the similar metals to each other from opposing pieces, then the aluminum to aluminum. Welding standalone aluminum to standalone steel without highly specialized fusion techniques and bonding is not possible.

+1
And this is one of those specialized techniques and I doubt that's what Bert had in mind. The aluminum/steel clad left behind after the smoke clears is the bimetallic insert Cal mentions.
Scott


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Offline Steve F

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 03:11:55 PM »
Aluminum is not a metal; it’s an alloy.
Aluminum is indeed a metal, and can be in a pure state or alloyed with other metals. ::)
I'm glad someone cleared this up, and I'll second the roll-eyes emoticon!  If aluminum is not a metal, then just what the h311 is it?  It's not wood, it's not plastic, it's not stone, it's not a gas, it's not water...........OH OH OH it's an ALLOY!

Offline Steve F

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 05:51:42 PM »
 :)

Offline scottly

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2018, 06:34:30 PM »
Yes,i'll cut the the tank and then glue the bung.
Bert the cap you posted comes with a steel bung, or filler neck. Weld the bung, then screw on the cap.
Please post pictures of the parts when you get them before cutting. ;)
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Offline 754

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2018, 11:33:39 PM »
If they are not both steel, then try to machine to slip it on with sealer.
If that fails machine a steel 1/4 ring with 8 tapped holes, like around #6 then add a drilled flange to the GT cap if its light, non-ferrous, non steel like, light alloy thats not yellow or brown.
 That what I made for a Laverda guy as factory replacements.
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 01:30:53 AM »
Yes,i'll cut the the tank and then glue the bung.
Bert the cap you posted comes with a steel bung, or filler neck. Weld the bung, then screw on the cap.
Please post pictures of the parts when you get them before cutting. ;)

+1
DOH :o I wondered that too at first but couldn't quite tell if the actual filler neck was steel or not. All I had to do was scroll down to read the specs and there it said it. That solves the welding issue.
Scott


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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 04:46:26 AM »
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the metallic element. For other uses, see Aluminium (disambiguation).
Aluminium,  13Al
Aluminium-4.jpg
General properties
Pronunciation   
UK: /ˌæljʊˈmɪniəm/ (About this sound listen)
AL-yuu-MIN-ee-əm
US: /əˈluːmɪnəm/ (About this sound listen)
ə-LOO-min-əm
Alternative name   aluminum (U.S., Canada)
Appearance   silvery gray metallic
Standard atomic weight (Ar, standard)   26.9815385(7)[1]

magnesium ← aluminium → silicon
Atomic number (Z)   13
Group, period   group 13 (boron group), period 3
Block   p-block
Element category     post-transition metal, sometimes considered a metalloid
Electron configuration   [Ne] 3s2 3p1
Electrons per shell
2, 8, 3
Physical properties
Phase (at STP)   solid
Melting point   933.47 K ​(660.32 °C, ​1220.58 °F)
Boiling point   2743 K ​(2470 °C, ​4478 °F)
Density (near r.t.)   2.70 g/cm3
when liquid (at m.p.)   2.375 g/cm3
Heat of fusion   10.71 kJ/mol
Heat of vaporization   284 kJ/mol
Molar heat capacity   24.20 J/(mol·K)
Vapor pressure
P (Pa)   1   10   100   1 k   10 k   100 k
at T (K)   1482   1632   1817   2054   2364   2790
Atomic properties
Oxidation states   +3, +2,[2] +1[3], −1, −2 ​(an amphoteric oxide)
Electronegativity   Pauling scale: 1.61
Ionization energies   
1st: 577.5 kJ/mol
2nd: 1816.7 kJ/mol
3rd: 2744.8 kJ/mol
(more)
Atomic radius   empirical: 143 pm
Covalent radius   121±4 pm
Van der Waals radius   184 pm
Color lines in a spectral range
Spectral lines
Miscellanea
Crystal structure   ​face-centered cubic (fcc) Face-centered cubic crystal structure for aluminium
Speed of sound thin rod   (rolled) 5000 m/s (at r.t.)
Thermal expansion   23.1 µm/(m·K) (at 25 °C)
Thermal conductivity   237 W/(m·K)
Electrical resistivity   28.2 nΩ·m (at 20 °C)
Magnetic ordering   paramagnetic[4]
Magnetic susceptibility   +16.5·10−6 cm3/mol
Young's modulus   70 GPa
Shear modulus   26 GPa
Bulk modulus   76 GPa
Poisson ratio   0.35
Mohs hardness   2.75
Vickers hardness   160–350 MPa
Brinell hardness   160–550 MPa
CAS Number   7429-90-5
History
Naming   after alumina (aluminium oxide), itself named after mineral alum
Prediction   Antoine Lavoisier (1782)
Discovery and first isolation   Hans Christian Ørsted (1824)
Named by   Humphry Davy (1812)
Main isotopes of aluminium
Iso­tope   Abun­dance   Half-life (t1/2)   Decay mode   Pro­duct
26Al   trace   7.17×105 y   β+   26Mg
ε   26Mg
γ   –
27Al   100%   stable
view talk edit | references | in Wikidata
Aluminium or aluminum is a chemical element with symbol Al and atomic number 13. It is a silvery-white, soft, nonmagnetic, ductile metal in the boron group. By mass, aluminium makes up about 8% of the Earth's crust; it is the third most abundant element after oxygen and silicon and the most abundant metal in the crust, though it is less common in the mantle below. The chief ore of aluminium is bauxite. Aluminium metal is so chemically reactive that native specimens are rare and limited to extreme reducing environments. Instead, it is found combined in over 270 different minerals.[5]

Aluminium is remarkable for its low density and its ability to resist corrosion through the phenomenon of passivation. Aluminium and its alloys are vital to the aerospace industry[6] and important in transportation and building industries, such as building facades and window frames.[7] The oxides and sulfates are the most useful compounds of aluminium.[6]

Despite its prevalence in the environment, no known form of life uses aluminium salts metabolically, but aluminium is well tolerated by plants and animals.[8] Because of these salts' abundance, the potential for a biological role for them is of continuing interest, and studies contin
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:49:58 AM by Yamahawk »
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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 04:56:20 AM »
Excerpt from The Tale of the Giant Rat of Sumatra - Firesign Theater
"I Deduce that we're about to be entertained by an American ingenue  from upstate New York!"
"How the deuce did you deduce that, Stones?"
"By the taps on her shoes, Footman... they resound to a unique alloy of Aluminium and Magnosium, manufactured in Schenectady , but shuffled off to Buffalo..."
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline bert96

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 02:27:08 PM »
If the bung is made of steel thats a good new,but i can't this information...

Bert
QA50 1969,ST-90 1974,mb5 1982,rz350 1983,shadow 1100 1985,vf1000f 1985,BMW K1 1990,shadow tourer 1100 2001,vfr 750 1994,vtr250 199?