Topic: She hauls but not that much.

[Jore]

Hi folks, happy new year!

I would consider my project bike to be 98% complete by now, only missing minor adjustments and the like, currently I'm messing around the clutch, I had it to where it wouldn't creep forward in first nor die once moving, but the lever was really heavy, I rode it for about  5 km, stopped to get the gas tank filled and moved along, I had to do another stop less than a km away and I stayed there for maybe about 30 minutes because I found some buddies, I try to start the bike and low and behold no neutral to be found, I finally managed to get it in to neutral, kick start it and took off, coming back home the clutch lever felt tighter, I stop at a light, no neutral to be found, got back home and turned it off once in the garage, but again no neutral to be found if the bike was running, once off I could get it back to neutral, left it like that and late that evening a buddy came by, so I showed him the bike and told him to take it for a spin, he came back after half a block because the clutch lever was really hard, he was about to get the bike in to the garage and the clutch cable snapped, the lead from the end on the clutch housing came loose.

I changed the cable to another slightly longer one that I had, tried to readjust the clutch, but I'm missing something, I do the procedure like the manual describes:


I think I'm missing on the sweet spot where the adjustment screw should be, on the manual it says once you feel resistance to back it off 1/4 to half a turn, how much should be done or is there another trick to that?

The bike a 400 bored to 466 btw.

Thanks!

[jgger]

Ok,turn around with your back to the bike and take a deep breath and count to 10.

1st thing is you need to have slack in the cables, so back off BOTH adjusters. Now loosen the lockout and like the book says, turn the screw until you feel tension (ON THE SCREW)then back off 1/4turn. Next turn the adjuster for the cable where it goes into the case and check the handle for about 3/4" of play at the end. Now lock that one down, the rest of the adjustment will be made at the handle bar lever.

What you might want to do is loosen the adjuster at the push rod (the screw) so you know you are starting from scratch.

There, don't you feel better now.

[dave500]

if you cant get it to not drag but slip or not slip but drag you need a new clutch.

[Jore]

Clutch friction plates have about 30 km on them tops, I'll do jgger's method and report back. I do have slack on it, but might as well loosen everything and start fresh. Thanks!

[scunny]

Hate to ask. but, what sort of oil are you using.

[Jore]

Castrol gtx 20-50w with zddp additive as per a hondaman post suggested.

[dave500]

theres half ya problem its too heavy,be sure to get that primary adjustment correct first.

[Jore]

So I played with the adjustment, on both the case screw and the lever screw I have about 5 threads out, the cam screw is about one quarter before the  friction zone. The bike in my garage at least shifts smoothly from first to neutral, neutral to second and back, I get no creeping with the clutch in and the lever doesn't feel that heavy. I'll try it out a bit later today and  report back.

[Jore]

Had a good but short ride, less than 10 km, but still good, no problem with false neutrals or going in to gears. I still need to do some minor details, but she's getting closer to being finished!

[jgger]

Sounds like you got on the run, good job.

[Redline it]

Castrol gtx 20-50w with zddp additive as per a hondaman post suggested.

Hi Jore, can you tell me why it was suggested to run that oil? Is it because of the bigger pistons? thanks

[Don R]

 They love rpm.

[Jore]

To be honest, I don't remember specifically why, but if you read the never ending oil thread (or something along those lines), it says that that oil existed during the period these bike were produced and also something to do with hot weather ridding, currently it's the coldest month in my area and it gets down to 5° C max, so based on that thread it's the oil that I'm using, also rotella and other suggested oils are not available here.

[Jore]

She does but kinda lacks oomph on the top range, but I'm positive that that has to be because my carbs aren't properly synchronized, this is what I'm using to sync them:


But i'll be going to a buddies shop and doing a proper sync soon, also timming might not be quite up to where it should.
I also plan on changing the front sprocket for a 16 tooth one based on another 466 build I read.

[Deltarider]

You can't do better than with the vac sinc you've made yourself! Your set never lies. What do you use for the needed damping? BTW, lack of oomph on the top range has nothing to do with whether carbs are perfectly sinced or not.

[dave500]

ya gotta get that ignition squared away perfect before any carb sync,theres a lotta lost power/pull in poorly set ignitions.

[Jore]

ya gotta get that ignition squared away perfect before any carb sync,theres a lotta lost power/pull in poorly set ignitions.

I messed around with the ignition timing earlier today, on slow idle I got the mark close to F but it would some times stutter and die, a bit higher, around 2k in the revs and after I would get the mark right between the twin lines. I took the bike out for a ride and  the low end is better but still so so, on the middle to upper half you can feel the pull of the bike, I'm not sure of what rpm I was running since the tach is not hooked up, I got it to about 110 km/h according to the speedo but it's one of those cheapo ebay types so I doubt I was going that fast since most of the traffic in that road is always doing around 80-90 km/h and I had some cars pass me. I'm happy with the ride but not that happy still.

[Redline it]

thanks about the oil, and yeah i'll pass on that forever psycho subject thread, i guess i'll just keep on using the 10 40 honda stuff. your new bike, it doesn't have that many miles on it does it? If it doesn't, picture yourself being a piston, ride it like you got rear flat and 500 miles of asphalt before you can get another tire and you have to keep the same rim forever, ride it gently, reach rpm in middle gears just briefly. those ignitions are touchy, plug gap right on the low side exactly, is it 014? i don't know anything about plug caps, never seen a bad one unless it was broken bad, silicone works for small cracks lol. the caps are like oil, or cholesterol only when you start doubting it, then you worry about it, and nothing was really wrong in the first place. the F mark is a different deal, in the last few years i've noticed going by the book instructions my 1/4 F refuses to be adjusted to the window. if the advancer bolt is straight and not wobbling and still the f mark wont line up, after setting the points,I'll watch were the f mark makes it to or where it jumps to either on the advance or retard side, so basically i'll set the dwell "NOT" on  the 49' but I'll set it OFF the opposite side of the noted F mark was. and snug it up lightly then while I'm adjust the f mark to which my amazement can't believe, the dwell then moves perfectly into the 49' as the F mark now is in the window on the line. and don't even bother with 2/4 side until the main plate and 1/4 points are locked in with the advance working smooth exactly right on, gotta use good points too, even if they're used. then the second side takes one time adjustment, and all double checks will be spot on. Oh, if when setting the main plate and points doesn't come together like magic, then begin the procedure more off opposite than it was to match the finish line up, and it works precise. by doing it like that you avoid the factory manual instructions of trying to set the points to spec, then the timing which throws off the point gap, back and forth to the point you don't or wont want to double check, because you know it's going to be off still. and to adjust both points first before timing the main plate is insane, unless the bike is brand new. I sync'd my carbs after 34 years, and immediately I felt the 100 dollars was justified well worth it, when 1 carb was pulled into sync with the others and i could hear the difference, that lasted about 2 weeks and the bike on its own changed back to how it's been running the last 34 yrs, it runs different every time i ride it, but it runs good. real good. air leaks never seal for more than 2 weeks. i quit worrying about that, and the oil drippin off the alternator from the head leaks. i've never changed sprockets or chain (possibly alzheimers.) the  4into1 seat lasted 1 year, the stock seat was worn down to the pan for years. oh I washed it for the first time couple months ago, with a solvent air gun pulling soapy water, worked like those new cruz through car washes.)

[scunny]

comment about oil. some do not work well with our old motors, it gets churned up and shredded by the gears, this makes it hard to select neutral when the motor is hot. Been there, done that. Nothing wrong with the castrol.

[dave500]

ya gotta get that ignition squared away perfect before any carb sync,theres a lotta lost power/pull in poorly set ignitions.

I messed around with the ignition timing earlier today, on slow idle I got the mark close to F but it would some times stutter and die, a bit higher, around 2k in the revs and after I would get the mark right between the twin lines. I took the bike out for a ride and  the low end is better but still so so, on the middle to upper half you can feel the pull of the bike, I'm not sure of what rpm I was running since the tach is not hooked up, I got it to about 110 km/h according to the speedo but it's one of those cheapo ebay types so I doubt I was going that fast since most of the traffic in that road is always doing around 80-90 km/h and I had some cars pass me. I'm happy with the ride but not that happy still.

forget about the #$%*ing "F"mark!with your strobe/timing light shine and increase the rpm and watch the advance happen,keep going till it doesent advance anymore,adjust the plate holding that rpm until your at those full advance marks,go to the second one if you can,lock it down there,where the f mark ends up at idle doesent #$%*ing matter,these engines once under way are always above 3000 rpm anyway(or should be if your riding it correctly)and always at full advance,if you set to the f mark you might be losing out on full advance,dont be scared to rev these engines even in neutral,it might sound strained but they truly love it.

[Jore]

Forgot to mention I'm running the tytronics electronic ignition, I changed the plug caps about 3 years ago, I might as well get new ones, the plugs haven't been out in a while, but the bike doesn't smell gazzy when idling, so for tomorrow, I'll do new plugs, caps and set the ignition to full advance based on what you guys said, might as well change the sprocket while I'm at it, I live in a really hilly area, so any low end will help I guess.

[dave500]

if ya got a multi meter check the caps resistance,dont waste money!

[Jore]

I  advanced the ignition timing to as much as possible, although 2-3 are a bit further than 1-4, any how I unscrewed the oil cap and left it in its place and when revving the engine it would jump from pressure, then I noticed that I had these hoses hooked up together:


It was one single hose connecting those 2, I'm not sure on why I did that, but with the engine running on high revs you could see a massive gas flow in the inline filter I have, stop the engine, I cut the hose in two and to my surprise gas came out of the side that connects to carbs, so I'm guessing it was being pressurized or something and that made the engine wonky, after cutting that hose and starting the thing again I could hear it rev differently, and I'm pretty sure it revved higher. I still haven't ridden it but I'm guessing it will feel better.

[Jore]

Took it out for a ride, it feels not much different, I'll still have to thinker with it a bit more I guess.

[Redline it]

Forgot to mention I'm running the tytronics electronic ignition, I changed the plug caps about 3 years ago, I might as well get new ones, the plugs haven't been out in a while, but the bike doesn't smell gazzy when idling, so for tomorrow, I'll do new plugs, caps and set the ignition to full advance based on what you guys said, might as well change the sprocket while I'm at it, I live in a really hilly area, so any low end will help I guess.

chalk that one up as my non knowing how to quote it was supposed to quote this from dave? forget about the #$%*ing "F"mark!with your strobe/timing light shine and increase the rpm and watch the advance happen,keep going till it doesent advance anymore,adjust the plate holding that rpm until your at those full advance marks,go to the second one if you can,lock it down there,where the f mark ends up at idle doesent #$%*ing matter,these engines once under way are always above 3000 rpm anyway(or should be if your riding it correctly)and always at full advance,if you set to the f mark you might be losing out on full advance,dont be scared to rev these engines even in neutral,it might sound strained but they truly love it.
[/quote]

I'm impressed, at least someone has the intention to think outside the box of manual tune ups! i'm pretty slow it only took me some 30 yrs to figure out that once every thing is set starting with 1/4 taking less than 10 minutes checking the advance is about 10 seconds to do. and that's the time consumer the 2/3 side is less than a whole 2 mins. the advance check will come out spot on unless the advance mechanism is faulty. I discovered this knowing there's got to be a way to set the ignition timing just as how the plate rest on it's own in the sloppy seat it has and it worked. but i doubt anyone would try it nor could understand it (my luck is all) the explanation obviously takes way more time on account that it's "winging it" instead of building micro shims to force the plate to be tight, hoping that all goes perfectly fine, not to mention having a third hand to keep it all together the next adjustment time. i find a lot of time on these boards a long list of differences in defining the proper following of the manual, of course that's normal, but a major time consumer fishing only to find the multiple styles insisted upon being "the way." lol. sorry that i never ran across your home remedy, i might of tried that.

[dave500]

yeah the manuals were good I guess on new gear,but as stuff wears?even in the day setting by the full advance would've been my way,dont forget these were new bikes with some what new tech?still these days car mechanics cant or wont touch bikes and visa versa?whats with that #$%*?its only a #$%*ing engine?

[TwoTired]

The book method works fine, if the parts used are up to original specs.  If they aren't, then there is something broken and in need of repair/adjustment.  Developing a band aid adjustment to avoid doing the proper repair, it's just a deferral tactic to assuage the human condition, and part of the shade tree mechanics credo.  Sometimes the hubris of the home mechanic amazes me.

I mean really, the thought of an uneducated untrained person citing a part issue work-around being a better option than what a team of highly trained and experienced engineers cross checking each other...  The odds of that are pretty slim, imo

More likely it is the lack of understanding toward the true issue, that breeds these band aid "solutions".  Ever work with a prima donna?

Overlook the advance return spring tension?
Overlook wear on the advance flyweight stops?

Sure, just check it after the advance is "all in".  It will run "well enough".  Go have a beer... 

The shade tree mech only "fixes" one example of someone else's design.  The factory engineers "fixed" thousands to where they all worked the same in harmony.

Who do you really think got closer to "perfection"?

Carry on...

[Redline it]

yeah the manuals were good I guess on new gear,but as stuff wears?even in the day setting by the full advance would've been my way,dont forget these were new bikes with some what new tech?still these days car mechanics cant or wont touch bikes and visa versa?whats with that #$%*?its only a #$%*ing engine?

even then some of their round about maintenance ways are a little strange, their cb days where putting together some sweet production engines, my only guess why some don't want to work on them are, those japanese were some small guys that could put those engines together, at least in carburetor and maybe ignition, oh and valve dept, with .002 valve clearance?? that's like a piece of paper.


 

[Redline it]

The book method works fine, if the parts used are up to original specs.  If they aren't, then there is something broken and in need of repair/adjustment.  Developing a band aid adjustment to avoid doing the proper repair, it's just a deferral tactic to assuage the human condition, and part of the shade tree mechanics credo.  Sometimes the hubris of the home mechanic amazes me.

I mean really, the thought of an uneducated untrained person citing a part issue work-around being a better option than what a team of highly trained and experienced engineers cross checking each other...  The odds of that are pretty slim, imo

More likely it is the lack of understanding toward the true issue, that breeds these band aid "solutions".  Ever work with a prima donna?

Overlook the advance return spring tension?
Overlook wear on the advance flyweight stops?

Sure, just check it after the advance is "all in".  It will run "well enough".  Go have a beer... 

The shade tree mech only "fixes" one example of someone else's design.  The factory engineers "fixed" thousands to where they all worked the same in harmony.

Who do you really think got closer to "perfection"?

Carry on...

I'm thinking you have to be somewhat joking in your second paragraph, it would be funny an "uneducated and untrained" person that might discover a solution to a "work around fix," but it does happen, not only that, being the untrained  and uneducated will find things because he wasn't brainwashed as an expert engineer in training and then unable to see anything but what they learned at the pro level, back in the day either in factory racing, mechanics or distributors, it all was in one direction-for honda.  these bikes and you know it, or should,  are a living organism project under constant change, fuel is one example, materials in today's industry are different if available any more, oils are different, laws, highways, tracks and course speed conditions (sadly safety regs have turned ruthless plain racing for fun into pretty much candy ass (speed limits in pits?? if it's gas pits stand back, it's part of the race, putting speed limits on them, the next thing you know it'll all be limited when you give it away,) gotta grow with it, and that's capability, and if that can be done, the most uneducated untrained can take a stab at it and nail it. i listen to every one's ideas and fixes, only i have a hard time when it echoes of car salesmanships, even if there is 10 of them tight nitted fixed on particular subjects such as carb rebuilds & sync, and ignitions etc. some of those things wear out and w/out any out of spec measurements. I'm not gonna get another set of cases because it's worn. I have worked with prima donnas all the time, i'd be one only i dont' like telling anyone what to do. so that leaves me being my own prima donna in my own little world, I don't know why i lean away from factory trained, maybe it was in the height of production days of these bikes i had quite a bit of experience in competition with the full factory trained riders and teams and i gotta give them credit because of their consistency, they always got solid 2nd. i'm sure they were cross checking every angle, while we were snappin' bong hits like they were going out of style. that's probably it. all we had over them was ambition with a vision, and a lot of wingin it. it worked and always has. sometimes "works well enough" even slim to no chance...wins world championships, and the only one that could argue that point is usually 2nd place 3rd, 4th etc. that's gotta be why.

[Jore]

UPDATE: I adjusted the valves, changed the plugs and caps to new ones and the bike idles so smoothly now it's like night and day difference. I took her out for a ride about 40 minutes in city traffic and a few miles of open highway. I did about 120 kmh in fourth according to the speedo, but I doubt that thing is accurate, the traffic in that part mostly drives at around 80-90 and I was going a bit faster so probably I was doing 90-100, I didn't have a chance to get up to higher gears, but man it felt like a different bike, however it does go out of breath in the high end, but I'm pretty sure that's because I'm running the stock 400 carbs on stock settings. I'm happy it's really starting to feel like a proper bike. After the ride maybe about a block away from home I lost neutral it was first to second and vice versa, but I was already close so didn't check it, I'll do it tomorrow.

[Deltarider]

When the engine is at working temperature, neutral is always harder to find. That's why it's wise to select neutral before the bike has come to a complete stop like at a traffic light.

[strynboen]

yes thanging dovn in gear...is alvaus on the move..
.roling ahead to a light signal..i alvays trap dovn through the gear...to neutran..before i kommes to hold.
.then i can be garenteed i can hold in neutral..and even more imp..i can hit 1 gear..to roar aut of the green light..
this is just a charme of the Honda gear box..all my Hondas do the same..even the big cbx had a bit of it...
think Kawasaki and all types mc have this..no syncro in the gearbox..its a primitive system..just like 1930 cars..

[dave500]

Quote from: dave500 on January 23, 2018, 09:19:21 pm

yeah the manuals were good I guess on new gear,but as stuff wears?even in the day setting by the full advance would've been my way,dont forget these were new bikes with some what new tech?still these days car mechanics cant or wont touch bikes and visa versa?whats with that #$%*?its only a #$%*ing engine?




even then some of their round about maintenance ways are a little strange, their cb days where putting together some sweet production engines, my only guess why some don't want to work on them are, those japanese were some small guys that could put those engines together, at least in carburetor and maybe ignition, oh and valve dept, with .002 valve clearance?? that's like a piece of paper.

umm dah like yeah,it is like a piece of paper like,with all your hanging round racers one might think you knew like that like or some#$%* like?#$%* man?you on crack?

[dave500]

The book method works fine, if the parts used are up to original specs.  If they aren't, then there is something broken and in need of repair/adjustment.  Developing a band aid adjustment to avoid doing the proper repair, it's just a deferral tactic to assuage the human condition, and part of the shade tree mechanics credo.  Sometimes the hubris of the home mechanic amazes me.

I mean really, the thought of an uneducated untrained person citing a part issue work-around being a better option than what a team of highly trained and experienced engineers cross checking each other...  The odds of that are pretty slim, imo

More likely it is the lack of understanding toward the true issue, that breeds these band aid "solutions".  Ever work with a prima donna?

Overlook the advance return spring tension?
Overlook wear on the advance flyweight stops?

Sure, just check it after the advance is "all in".  It will run "well enough".  Go have a beer... 

The shade tree mech only "fixes" one example of someone else's design.  The factory engineers "fixed" thousands to where they all worked the same in harmony.

Who do you really think got closer to "perfection"?

Carry on...

I'm thinking you have to be somewhat joking in your second paragraph, it would be funny an "uneducated and untrained" person that might discover a solution to a "work around fix," but it does happen, not only that, being the untrained  and uneducated will find things because he wasn't brainwashed as an expert engineer in training and then unable to see anything but what they learned at the pro level, back in the day either in factory racing, mechanics or distributors, it all was in one direction-for honda.  these bikes and you know it, or should,  are a living organism project under constant change, fuel is one example, materials in today's industry are different if available any more, oils are different, laws, highways, tracks and course speed conditions (sadly safety regs have turned ruthless plain racing for fun into pretty much candy ass (speed limits in pits?? if it's gas pits stand back, it's part of the race, putting speed limits on them, the next thing you know it'll all be limited when you give it away,) gotta grow with it, and that's capability, and if that can be done, the most uneducated untrained can take a stab at it and nail it. i listen to every one's ideas and fixes, only i have a hard time when it echoes of car salesmanships, even if there is 10 of them tight nitted fixed on particular subjects such as carb rebuilds & sync, and ignitions etc. some of those things wear out and w/out any out of spec measurements. I'm not gonna get another set of cases because it's worn. I have worked with prima donnas all the time, i'd be one only i dont' like telling anyone what to do. so that leaves me being my own prima donna in my own little world, I don't know why i lean away from factory trained, maybe it was in the height of production days of these bikes i had quite a bit of experience in competition with the full factory trained riders and teams and i gotta give them credit because of their consistency, they always got solid 2nd. i'm sure they were cross checking every angle, while we were snappin' bong hits like they were going out of style. that's probably it. all we had over them was ambition with a vision, and a lot of wingin it. it worked and always has. sometimes "works well enough" even slim to no chance...wins world championships, and the only one that could argue that point is usually 2nd place 3rd, 4th etc. that's gotta be why.

whoa?

[dave500]

man this guys from mars?dont tell him I said that though,just quietly its not normal to rant on?

[1976cb750f836]

What about the clutch Basket?  Sounds like it's time to file the notches out?

[Jore]

What about the clutch Basket?  Sounds like it's time to file the notches out?

I already did that when adjusting, the fingers are all nice and smooth, well as smooth as possible without wearing them down too much.