Topic: Wheel alignment (offset from each other) question

[Yamahawk]

He might not have threaded the single nut on enough due to the mangling of the threads with the vice grips, but he did weld a nut on. Probably a good idea to try the double nut first, as that gives more stud to apply torque to.
Charlie

[DaveBarbier]

Did double nut first and they stripped the threads on a stud. Then tried vise grips and got all out except one. Welded on a nut and after it cooled broke the stud. Tried vise grips again with making two flats and tightened the vise grips with both hands and used propane to heat the aluminum and it spun out but I had to use all my strength. This stud was more stubborn than most.

[Yamahawk]

I guess it liked it in there!!
Charlie

[DaveBarbier]

It also didn't "break" loose at any point when it finally spun out. I was holding the tire with my left hand and pulling on the vise grips with my right very hard until right at the end. It wasn't cross threaded but I wonder if the threads in the stud were damaged. Either way, I chased them with a tap and all's good.

[DaveBarbier]

Getting back to this thread I started earlier this winter.

I added the spacer I made from a sprocket and it centered the wheels a bit but it’s far from perfectly inline with the front and noticeably off center if you look at the rear tire from the back of the bike. Because I was more curious I decided to see what the vertical levality was to the wheels. I held a level against the tires vertically and they’re not the same. Rear is almost perfectly level and the front is off a few degrees. This would, of course, affect the alignment as the bottom of the tires could be off while the tops of the tires (can’t measure that) are good. Both wheels spin true.

Can anyone else check this on their bike? Keep in mind the front forks have to be perfectly straight or else it’ll angle itself. I measured from the center of the axle to a motor mount bolt.

Thoughts? My frame bent (steering neck)? Is this just how they come from the factory? Seems like the bike has always been like this and I couldn’t tell if there was an issue so I’ll probably remove the spacer and put it all back to normal.

Front

Rear


Yes, I could strip the bike and put the frame in a jig to check and alter it but I’m not going to do that. Maybe get a new donor frame and check that one...not really against that. Maybe a project for next winter.

[calj737]

If your forks are straight (plumb) but the wheel/tire isn’t, perhaps the axle isn’t level? In which case, maybe the forks are not equally long through the trees? Measure axle centerline to ground for front on both sides. See what you get.

As for tires being aligned, are you working off edge of them or centerline of each tire? Different width rims and tires will never align on the edge, right? Drop a plumb line on each side of front and rear, mark the outsides. Move the bike. Mark the centerline front and rear. Check for alignment. Also drop a few reference points from frame to ground for reference, like pivot rod ends, motor brackets beneath motor, etc. Poor man’s frame jig-

[DaveBarbier]

Interesting ‘suspended’ frame jig, I’ll try that maybe next weekend.

The forks aren’t plumb either. Both forks have the same angle as the tire. Forks aren’t bent, I rolled the tubes on my bench before I swapped them (talking about the R6 front end swap I did this winter) and they’re the same length.

[calj737]

The forks aren’t plumb either. Both forks have the same angle as the tire. Forks aren’t bent, I rolled the tubes on my bench before I swapped them (talking about the R6 front end swap I did this winter) and they’re the same length.

I think you missed my point re: the fork lengths. Its very easy to have them slightly above or below each other at the top clamp. That makes them longer just slightly to each other, throwing the front axle out of whack (level). Confirm with a tape, they are exactly (or within a 1/32) of each other to the ground, and that the front axle is level. that should resolve the front wheel plumb issue.

[DaveBarbier]

Oh I see, the tops of the fork tubes are exactly the same height off the top clamp. The forks are within 1mm off the ground on a level smooth portion of my floor.

And to answer your other question, I’m measuring from the outside of each tire for alignment with string and, to double check, with a straight 2x4.

Unless I’m just look for a problem, I think I can see my steering neck seam (when I look from the front of the bike behind the headlight) a hair crooked. I could be seeing things, though, haha.

[DaveBarbier]

Also, put a level on the tops of the brake rotors and a level on the top triple clamp. Also, the fork tubes are square to the clamps. Meaning the clamps aren’t cocked or improperly machined.

[Don R]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Frame-Jig-Neck-Cones-1018-Mild-Steel-2-O-D-Chopper-Harley/122868277667?hash=item1c9b8521a3:g:7fwAAOSwg3FUg1m1&vxp=mtr

 You could jig up the chassis and get a set of these cones with a pointer rod on a flat table. I got a free 75F once with no engine and began to reassemble it. it for sure had a twist. Probably why the engine was pulled out of it. There weren't any damaged parts on it so it must have been wrecked and repaired with bolt on parts.

[Don R]

 Or get a 2 or 3 foot piece of straight tubing that fits the front axle clamps and one that fits the swingarm. Make one end level and compare to the other. 

[calj737]

And to answer your other question, I’m measuring from the outside of each tire for alignment with string and, to double check, with a straight 2x4.

Wood? Ain't straight. Use 1/4"x2" steel flat stock, or better yet, 1" square tubing. Even a flat 36" metal ruler.

But I see your level is not... 

[Yamahawk]

...but it's consistently not level...
Charlie

[DaveBarbier]

And to answer your other question, I’m measuring from the outside of each tire for alignment with string and, to double check, with a straight 2x4.

Wood? Ain't straight. Use 1/4"x2" steel flat stock, or better yet, 1" square tubing. Even a flat 36" metal ruler.

But I see your level is not... 

Yes, but taught string is straight . That’s how I’m measuring, running string from the rear tire to the front. I’m just using the 2x4 for quick checks as I move the tire around.

[DaveBarbier]

...but it's consistently not level...
Charlie

It’s consistently not level in the front, but as I move to the back of the bike it becomes more level.

Can one of you guys check out one of your bikes?

[DaveBarbier]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Frame-Jig-Neck-Cones-1018-Mild-Steel-2-O-D-Chopper-Harley/122868277667?hash=item1c9b8521a3:g:7fwAAOSwg3FUg1m1&vxp=mtr

 You could jig up the chassis and get a set of these cones with a pointer rod on a flat table. I got a free 75F once with no engine and began to reassemble it. it for sure had a twist. Probably why the engine was pulled out of it. There weren't any damaged parts on it so it must have been wrecked and repaired with bolt on parts.

Thanks for the replies Don, I’ll definitely check this out if I end up going the jig route. I do like the simplicity of the strings as Cal suggested, though.

[calj737]

If your top clamp is not level, then how are you forks plumb? From the top clamp angle, that would translate to the axle/rotors and the forks and wheel. Any change your steering stem is bent? Does the top clamp change its slant when moved side-to-side?

I'd like to see you remove the front wheel, and check the internal components carefully, maybe the rim is laced up out of whack too? Have you checked it for true recently? CT has some pretty harsh roads and bomb-straifed roads from winters 

[jgger]

I would think that when checking the front wheel that rake and trail play a huge part. If the front wheel isn't pointed axactlly straight then any plumb measurements will be inaccurate.

[DaveBarbier]

If your top clamp is not level, then how are you forks plumb? From the top clamp angle, that would translate to the axle/rotors and the forks and wheel. Any change your steering stem is bent? Does the top clamp change its slant when moved side-to-side?

I'd like to see you remove the front wheel, and check the internal components carefully, maybe the rim is laced up out of whack too? Have you checked it for true recently? CT has some pretty harsh roads and bomb-straifed roads from winters 

I never checked the alignment with the original forks and wheel. This winter I did an R6 fork swap and laced up a new wheel with new spokes. Wheel is true and spins nicely.

My forks aren’t plumb, they have the same angle to them the tire does. It IS as if the steering neck is angled. That would explain everything but that’s not really easy to measure unless things are disassembled, which I’m prepared to do. I will remove the wheel and check if the axle is level. I bet it’s at the same angle as the top clamp.

I’ll check the slant of the stem. A level won’t really work for that so I’ll probably use my phone’s level which will give me degrees of pitch.

I’m using a custom top and bottom triple clamp from Cognito Moto. It does have an aluminum stem (solid, not hollow) instead of steel. When I was lifting the fork assembly into the neck to assemble it it does flex. I have to lightly hammer the top triple on. Hard to explain, maybe when/if I remove the forks I’ll take pictures. On the bench, the top clamp slides on the forks smoothly. When it’s assembled, the weight of the front end flexes the stem enough where I need to coax the top clamp on. Normal?

[DaveBarbier]

I would think that when checking the front wheel that rake and trail play a huge part. If the front wheel isn't pointed axactlly straight then any plumb measurements will be inaccurate.

You think right

[calj737]

If you remove the front end, place the triple tree on a flat, level surface. Verify the stems plumb. Assemble top clamp, check for level. Its possible that the stem is not plumb and that in turn is translating down the forks to render the wheel and axles out. It would need to be off pretty far because the neck bearings should rectify that much bend out. Could still be off enough to create the problem you're seeing.

It's also very possible the wheel is not fully seated in the axle clamps, flush and flat. Before you tear everything apart, you might just dismount the wheel from the forks, and reinstall and see if that brings the axle around to level. That won't address the top clamp though.

[Yamahawk]

Really Dave, the only way to check it is to take off the forks and triple tree and check the neck for plumb. that's the key. If the steering neck is plumb, then your forks will be also, if the front R6 triple tree and stem hasn't been tweaked from an accident. Start at square one, and go from there.
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

Just thinking... did you replace the stem in the R6 forks with one from a CB750? THAT could be out... as Cal stated, the stem may not be square with the triple tree, and if the R6 stem has been replaced, that would be a likely culprit.
Charlie

[DaveBarbier]

I agree Charlie, I see disassembly in my future, haha. I welcome it with open arms.

I’m not using the R6 triples. I’m using custom ones from Cognito Moto. Billet aluminum with aluminum stem.