Author Topic: All Balls Steering install driving me nuts. Help? (Read 2577 times)

Ravie · « **on:** March 05, 2015, 05:07:19 PM »

I really apologize if this has been covered 12 times this week. I know there have been a lot of threads about this install but try as I might, I couldn't pull up the answer to this.

I'm installing the All balls tapered bearings into my 750. At first, I used the thinner washer, seal, and bearing on the bottom. It was too much height. So I removed the thin washer, and put the original tin washer on, then seal, then bearing.

Better.

The kit also came with an UPPER seal. Great, but installed, it's too tall and will only allow about half a thread of the spanner nut before it's tight.

So.....do I run w/o the upper seal? The originals didn't even have a seal there, did they? I don't remember there being one there.

Rav

Stev-o · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2015, 05:20:40 PM »

I did not use the upper seal.

Here is The tapered bearing thread.....

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1516.550

Ravie · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2015, 05:25:29 PM »

Yeah, big thread...hard to find something specific... Thanks!

Trad · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2015, 06:05:30 PM »

I never used the upper seal either. 2 years of riding and I took it apart last week. All is still perfect.

oldhatt45 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2015, 06:38:14 PM »

Ravie,

Have you removed the ridge under the Top Nut???
There are a couple of pictures showing this.
If you look at my build thread, on page 5 reply 101 it shows the ridge.
I had to grind off the ridge with a dremel and then everything fit up right.
I have a K6 if that makes any difference.

Hope this helps,

Charlie

Don R · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2015, 07:35:19 PM »

Ridge removal X2

Ravie · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2015, 07:42:43 PM »

Okay here's what i ended up doing. Realized when it wouldnt stop tightening that the lower race recesses into the tube. Doi.

So final tally is this (starting from the bottom):

Thin washer supplies with kit
Seal supplied with kit
Bearing
Race

Top race
Bearing
Seal
Spanner nut with ridge NOT removed.

My feeling on that ridge was that with the upper seal in place it was acting as a barrier and a spacer allowing the spanner to put equal pressure on that bearing center.

Snugged it up til it almost stopped being able to turn. Backed it off to a bit loose, then turned til i felt resistance and gave it a gentle snug.

Seems A-ok to me now.

Now if I could just find the goldarned upper tree fork tube bolts and washers which somehow didn't make it into the bag....

mrbreeze · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2015, 07:47:45 PM »

If I remember correctly, you have to take the old ball bearings and race and measure for height. Then use the correct spacer ( thick or thin) to match that height. I couldn't figure out why they were different unless Honda used different bearings through the production years. I believe I used the thick one on my K5. I don't recall removing any ridge. Did you get the old races out?

ekpent · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2015, 07:49:02 PM »

I also removed the ridge on the top cap recently, no dust seal on top and thin washer/seal in the bottom. Forks ears etc lined up well on my K4.
I noticed in my new All Balls kits they had a new smaller washer to supposedly take up the space where the ridge is in the cap but did not use it since I ground it out with my dremel.

mrbreeze · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2015, 07:54:30 PM »

Oh OK! Thats why you remove the ridge....to install top seal. Mine didn't come with a top seal or have one in the first place. Another thing I remember.....It's better to ride around a little before you install all of the gauges and stuff. Mine felt tight enough when I first installed it but loosened up too much after I rode it. You can still reach under with a punch and retighten the nut but then you can't get a feel of how much you tightened it. Just a heads up.....

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2015, 08:25:07 PM »

Yep, I have always had to readjust/ tighten after 1 or 2 thou. After that it seems to stay put pretty good.

Medyo Bastos · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2015, 06:02:03 AM »

anyone have a pic of the ridge you are removing? i have installed countless tapered bearings and havent taken out any ridge???

ekpent · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2015, 06:38:17 AM »

This picture is from an E-bay add but shows the ridge. In the second picture the smaller washer on the left is from a new All Balls kit that is supposed to take up the gap from the ridge, fits inside the ridge.

Medyo Bastos · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2015, 06:55:18 AM »

thank you for the pic!

now tell me this:

there are times (depending on year of frame neck) the lower race will fit up too high for the new bearing to work properly. you can check this by completely seating the race into the fame neck and holding the bearing in place with the thick washer below it using your hand. what to do when the washer is not thick enough??? i have read sources stating the small washer was for exactly this scenario. i would hate to seat the bearing onto the lower tree completely assembled to find out the lower tree and the frame neck scrape because of not enough spacing...

taking a seated tapered bearing off a lower tree is like braking supermans knee caps...

oldhatt45 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2015, 08:51:06 AM »

Medyo Bastos,

If you do the measuring correctly, the Lower Race and bearing should line up correctly.
The measuring is to sit the Old Bearing and race on a flat surface and the new bearing and race along side.
Then add the appropriate washers to get the stack height correct.
If, after getting the stack height correct, the lower bearing goes into the neck too far, then you have a problem with the neck or the new bearing. As in someone has done something to the neck prior to you attempting to change the bearing, or the new bearing you are trying to install is the wrong one. (Not like that has never happened before. Hahahaha)

Charlie

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 06, 2015, 01:03:58 PM »

I don't think I have heard of a single 550 or 750, needing anything but the thin spacer...

mrbreeze · « **Reply #16 on:** January 23, 2018, 11:43:04 PM »

I just revisited my installation from about 12 years ago. I did use the thinner washer on the bottom and I never removed the ridge under the adjuster nut. I thought my bearings were screwed up (was getting a notchy feeling). The bearings and grease looked fine and I did have a top seal installed. Just came to find out that I should pitch that upper seal. Also there is now a washer in the new kit that wasn't included in the old kit that rides where that ridge needs removing. I'm going to call AllBalls and get another washer so I have a complete new kit for my next project.

PeWe · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2018, 03:24:03 AM »

My CB750 did not get any seals at all when installing tapered bearings 1983. They looked really good when I took the bike apart 2012 and I continue to use them. The grease looked nice under. Important to not use a high pressure cleaning device spraying direct at them, grease them up with plenty too.
Maybe the bottom bearing has a washer under.
The upper bearing has a cover with the bearing nut with washer: https://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/threadhead-top_big53220286000-01_1ed8.jpg

mrbreeze · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2018, 12:44:24 PM »

Quote from: mrbreeze on January 23, 2018, 11:43:04 PM

I just revisited my installation from about 12 years ago. I did use the thinner washer on the bottom and I never removed the ridge under the adjuster nut. I thought my bearings were screwed up (was getting a notchy feeling). The bearings and grease looked fine and I did have a top seal installed. Just came to find out that I should pitch that upper seal. Also there is now a washer in the new kit that wasn't included in the old kit that rides where that ridge needs removing. I'm going to call AllBalls and get another washer so I have a complete new kit for my next project.

I just got off the phone with AllBalls and a very pleasant customer service lady said she could send me the upper washer that wasn't included in my first kit back around 05' or 06'. I also requested another sticker as my other one had found it's way onto my toolbox! It took me a bit to find their phone # so in case anybody cares ...their # is 610-473-0505 and they are out of Pennsylvania. Part # on that washer is 99-1101. Now I'm off to tear back in and remove that upper seal that many of you are saying to remove.

Yamahawk · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2018, 03:25:17 PM »

The dash looks nice! But, watch out for those flames... they are getting higher and higher...hehe
Charlie

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2018, 04:06:10 PM »

Breeze, I think the washer AllBallz is sending you is supposed to go between the grease seal and the toothed cap. It locates inside the teeth so that the teeth don's interfere with the seal.

scottly · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2018, 06:42:14 PM »

Fred, the upper seal isn't needed, and a washer isn't needed on the top bearing; the inner race of the bearing fits inside the teeth, or notches on the underside of the nut.

scottly · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2018, 06:47:42 PM »

Link to my thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,160077.0.html

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2018, 07:16:08 PM »

Scottly is correct...yet another option that I have used is use the the seal but grind off the teeth

mrbreeze · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2018, 07:44:32 PM »

Yes it is but the seal has been omitted as per many posts here on the subject. I got my kit around 05-06 and it didn't include that washer. I have been researching this because AllBalls only supplies sketchy info. Thanks to the search function being back up and running I was able to get a clearer picture of how this all works. Like I said earlier I didn't have that upper washer and had no instructions on grinding down the ridge under the nut. The washer takes care of that. Was provided an upper seal but nothing about only using it if it was needed. So I had the ridges on the nut digging into the top of that seal. I bought another kit off of Amazon because I thought the set I had put on earlier was messed up. It felt like it was tight enough but notchy. It now has that washer installed without the seal and it feels great. Now I have an extra kit so I will have to go buy another project bike to put em' on!!

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Author Topic: All Balls Steering install driving me nuts. Help? (Read 2577 times)