Author Topic: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start  (Read 7228 times)

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Offline juntjoo

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lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« on: January 28, 2018, 07:23:39 pm »
First of all both rotor and stator appear dead as I was unable to get any resistance from either. The dial just went to zero. I tested my meter on my wireless mouse and got 2ohms so I assume it's working and I'm using it right. The book just explains how to test these then instructs to replace. But I just wanted to get a more experienced opinion of what could be going on with the bike I should know about.

And so I included the pic of the fuse panel too in case it might be related.  Doesn't look good.

Other than this the bike appears to run fine except #1 & 3 pipes are not hot, but that's probably(?) another thread and judging by the lights there seems to be a lack of current, and I understand it only charges after 3k rpms and the bike is just on it's stand in the garage atm but I did measure voltage while pulling the throttle wondering if the voltage would increase any, I thought it might, but it didn't.

So IDK what that means but that's where I am now. The battery is charged but quickly loses enough juice to restart the bike. Suggestions, ideas, questions?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:50:43 pm by juntjoo »
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2018, 07:40:49 pm »
Ok... the fuse box doesn't have a fusible link in it, it has a U-terminal someone has substituted when they blew the 30 amp fuse link. I would say you have some problems that the PO tried to rig up, and failed. If there was a problem with the charging system, and it blew the 30 amp fuse link (it is a strip of metal), you have some problems. If you have the manual for the 1982 CB650 Nighthawk, follow the troubleshooting for the charging system, and see if any of the parts are good. Once you determine the go or no-go system check on the charging system, replace that U-terminal with a real fuse, or a circuit breaker. I have substituted a modern ATC type blade fuse holder using ring terminals on the two screws in your picture, with a 30amp (or whatever your bike uses as a main fuse) circuit breaker. That way, if it blows again, it will reset and be usable again. Do the check of components first, and see whether any need replacement.
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2018, 11:39:53 pm »
Ok... the fuse box doesn't have a fusible link in it, it has a U-terminal someone has substituted when they blew the 30 amp fuse link. I would say you have some problems that the PO tried to rig up, and failed. If there was a problem with the charging system, and it blew the 30 amp fuse link (it is a strip of metal), you have some problems. If you have the manual for the 1982 CB650 Nighthawk, follow the troubleshooting for the charging system, and see if any of the parts are good. Once you determine the go or no-go system check on the charging system, replace that U-terminal with a real fuse, or a circuit breaker. I have substituted a modern ATC type blade fuse holder using ring terminals on the two screws in your picture, with a 30amp (or whatever your bike uses as a main fuse) circuit breaker. That way, if it blows again, it will reset and be usable again. Do the check of components first, and see whether any need replacement.
Charlie

for both stator and rotor, neither short to ground, but both give me 0 internal resistance where the book calls for a few ohms. That's bad right? The rectifier passed all resistance tests with flying colors except the performance test which I can't perform till my new valve cover gasket arrives.

Might there be something that caused both to fail together, if in fact they did, that could kill any replacements I install?

BTW, anyone know why are "Rick's" stators and rotors are like $100 more than other brands?

And will any ol circuit breaker of the right spec do? There must be a specific type I need that will fit there right? I don't know much about electronics
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline strynboen

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 04:11:17 am »
you can get those main fuses..cbx 1000 and cb900 and most 1978-82 bikes used them..but tru to put a 55watt bulb in instead..it vill light up if the power pulls is great..and just let the power through for the small users..so you can test a lot of stuff..and not blow 100 fuses...
another idea..Mount the korrekt fuses..and remove the battery..and instead use a auto battery loader/tender..it can only give abaut 2-6 amps..and vill not harm the viring..even there is shorts..and have it a auto fuse..its easy to power it up after shorts..i often use that for testing vracked bikes...

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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2018, 05:22:38 am »
Ok... the fuse box doesn't have a fusible link in it, it has a U-terminal someone has substituted when they blew the 30 amp fuse link. I would say you have some problems that the PO tried to rig up, and failed. If there was a problem with the charging system, and it blew the 30 amp fuse link (it is a strip of metal), you have some problems. If you have the manual for the 1982 CB650 Nighthawk, follow the troubleshooting for the charging system, and see if any of the parts are good. Once you determine the go or no-go system check on the charging system, replace that U-terminal with a real fuse, or a circuit breaker. I have substituted a modern ATC type blade fuse holder using ring terminals on the two screws in your picture, with a 30amp (or whatever your bike uses as a main fuse) circuit breaker. That way, if it blows again, it will reset and be usable again. Do the check of components first, and see whether any need replacement.
Charlie

for both stator and rotor, neither short to ground, but both give me 0 internal resistance where the book calls for a few ohms. That's bad right? The rectifier passed all resistance tests with flying colors except the performance test which I can't perform till my new valve cover gasket arrives.

Might there be something that caused both to fail together, if in fact they did, that could kill any replacements I install?

BTW, anyone know why are "Rick's" stators and rotors are like $100 more than other brands?

And will any ol circuit breaker of the right spec do? There must be a specific type I need that will fit there right? I don't know much about electronics

Well, the connectors are usually the problem. They get corroded and cause too much resistance which causes heat, which causes the coils in the stator to fry. Now the field coil, that could be due to your brushes being bad, so it will be necessary to pull the left cover on your alternator, and check every part for whether they pass the test.
As for the circuit breaker, you could fab one up for testing but strynboen has a good idea also using the bulb. I try to get rid of the fusible link, or at least use something that isn't so old and corroded. Your right screw has a lot of rust and probably corrosion under it.
The 6 or 8 position connection block is the one you should check off of your stator, between the VRR and the stator. It normally never sees any cleaning and slowly goes bad from corrosion. You also should have a fuse box up on the triple tree with 4 fuses in it. Check them also.
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 09:52:46 am »
you can get those main fuses..cbx 1000 and cb900 and most 1978-82 bikes used them..but tru to put a 55watt bulb in instead..it vill light up if the power pulls is great..and just let the power through for the small users..so you can test a lot of stuff..and not blow 100 fuses...
another idea..Mount the korrekt fuses..and remove the battery..and instead use a auto battery loader/tender..it can only give abaut 2-6 amps..and vill not harm the viring..even there is shorts..and have it a auto fuse..its easy to power it up after shorts..i often use that for testing vracked bikes...

thanks. Ill look into a circuit breaker or bulb type as you suggested. Any disadvantage of these over a bunch of cheap fuses? Maybe I'll find they're really expensive? Any particular place to shop for these? auto parts vendors or electronics?

and what's that accent you got where you replace the C's with K's and W's with V's? I'm thinking german or somethimg nordic.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2018, 10:17:13 am »
If you buy one of these, they can be reset, and never buy another one. Along with a holder with wire leads off of it, you can mount it on the screw terminals where the U connector is now, and test your wiring without burning it up or replacing the fuse everytime it blows. The 35 watt bulb as stated, will glow brighter as the load is increased, until it gets to full brightness.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Circuit-Breaker-Blade-Fuse-28V-DC-Resettable-5-30A-Marine-Rally-Automotive/322966055040?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=512107290490&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Blade fuse holder

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5X-30A-6V-36V-Mini-Waterproof-Amp-In-Line-Stanard-Blade-Type-Fuse-Holder-Fuse/182524381601?epid=2113590121&hash=item2a7f4d09a1:g:ijQAAOSw~CFY6z2B

Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2018, 10:24:58 am »
Ok... the fuse box doesn't have a fusible link in it, it has a U-terminal someone has substituted when they blew the 30 amp fuse link. I would say you have some problems that the PO tried to rig up, and failed. If there was a problem with the charging system, and it blew the 30 amp fuse link (it is a strip of metal), you have some problems. If you have the manual for the 1982 CB650 Nighthawk, follow the troubleshooting for the charging system, and see if any of the parts are good. Once you determine the go or no-go system check on the charging system, replace that U-terminal with a real fuse, or a circuit breaker. I have substituted a modern ATC type blade fuse holder using ring terminals on the two screws in your picture, with a 30amp (or whatever your bike uses as a main fuse) circuit breaker. That way, if it blows again, it will reset and be usable again. Do the check of components first, and see whether any need replacement.
Charlie

for both stator and rotor, neither short to ground, but both give me 0 internal resistance where the book calls for a few ohms. That's bad right? The rectifier passed all resistance tests with flying colors except the performance test which I can't perform till my new valve cover gasket arrives.

Might there be something that caused both to fail together, if in fact they did, that could kill any replacements I install?

BTW, anyone know why are "Rick's" stators and rotors are like $100 more than other brands?

And will any ol circuit breaker of the right spec do? There must be a specific type I need that will fit there right? I don't know much about electronics

Well, the connectors are usually the problem. They get corroded and cause too much resistance which causes heat, which causes the coils in the stator to fry. Now the field coil, that could be due to your brushes being bad, so it will be necessary to pull the left cover on your alternator, and check every part for whether they pass the test.
As for the circuit breaker, you could fab one up for testing but strynboen has a good idea also using the bulb. I try to get rid of the fusible link, or at least use something that isn't so old and corroded. Your right screw has a lot of rust and probably corrosion under it.
The 6 or 8 position connection block is the one you should check off of your stator, between the VRR and the stator. It normally never sees any cleaning and slowly goes bad from corrosion. You also should have a fuse box up on the triple tree with 4 fuses in it. Check them also.
Charlie

thanks. what's the difference between the stator and "field coil"? the brushes look great. I'll check other fuses. N thanks.

oh, spend $150 for new parts or $350 for "Ricks"? I really shouldn't spend that much.. will the functionality of the cheaper ones be comparable? Is it just a matter of lifespan? cuz the Rick's investment could be made later down the road when these fail(if they will while I own the bike)

I'll definitely do the bulb fuze thing. probably have some in the closet.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2018, 10:29:32 am »
The 'field' coil is just that, it is an electromagnet, instead of a real magnet type rotor. It makes your rotor into a magnet, and uses brushes on copper rings on it to make the electrical connection. Same as my RD350 has, only from Honda. It works very well, and no worry of losing magnetic force from age or shock, like magnetic rotors do. Check the functionality of your components before even considering whether to buy a Rick's or other kind, or even good used parts off eBay. (cheapest)
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2018, 10:32:38 am »
If you buy one of these, they can be reset, and never buy another one. Along with a holder with wire leads off of it, you can mount it on the screw terminals where the U connector is now, and test your wiring without burning it up or replacing the fuse everytime it blows. The 35 watt bulb as stated, will glow brighter as the load is increased, until it gets to full brightness.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Circuit-Breaker-Blade-Fuse-28V-DC-Resettable-5-30A-Marine-Rally-Automotive/322966055040?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=512107290490&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Blade fuse holder

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5X-30A-6V-36V-Mini-Waterproof-Amp-In-Line-Stanard-Blade-Type-Fuse-Holder-Fuse/182524381601?epid=2113590121&hash=item2a7f4d09a1:g:ijQAAOSw~CFY6z2B

Charlie

awesome idea. Thanks.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2018, 10:41:17 am »
The 'field' coil is just that, it is an electromagnet, instead of a real magnet type rotor. It makes your rotor into a magnet, and uses brushes on copper rings on it to make the electrical connection. Same as my RD350 has, only from Honda. It works very well, and no worry of losing magnetic force from age or shock, like magnetic rotors do. Check the functionality of your components before even considering whether to buy a Rick's or other kind, or even good used parts off eBay. (cheapest)
Charlie

well I followed the book and as stated the rectifier passed all resistance tests(don't ask me to go through that crazy memory capacity test again) but both stator and rotor came back zero for internal resistance. Not being an expert I can't say 100% they're toast but I think I did the tests correct and I'm definitely getting zero vs some resistance or infinity, which I'm familiar with getting with my little $10 multimeter, so by the book they look done but I'd hate to replace unbroken parts. Should I do anything else to double cbeck. Otherwise I got my parts in the my virtual basket ready to check out(gotta check other fuses first). Thanks again very much.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2018, 11:44:33 am »
Alternators, generators and motors work by manipulating magnetism.
For the 650 bike, the magnetic field is created by a field coil winding incorporated into the rotor.  It becomes an electromagnet and receives power through slip rings and brushes from the Voltage regulator.

The rotating magnetic field causes the stator windings to excite and produce power (AC) which is delivered to the rectifier, turning it into DC power that the battery and bike electrical components use.

In my experience, the stator windings are the stationary ones and very rarely go bad without some sort of physical abuse, road rash encounters or enraged attendants with firearms or axes.  It won't hurt to check the stator windings (yellow wires) to make sure they do not have shorts to the frame or motor housing.  The resistance between windings is very low and difficult for the untrained to measure accurately with common meters.  If the readings are non zero, it will probably work fine.  The design makes this example impervious to over-current in the stator so it is unlikely able to "burn out" even if the output is directly shorted. (Shorted or reverse connected rectifiers/ batteries are another matter.)

Be aware that continuity equates to an electrical path.  Electrical paths have a resistance, variable from micro ohms to Megaohms.  Infinity is the only value that does not produce continuity.  And, you can't actually get there from here.  There are no instruments that can actually give you true infinity indications, but they can give you out of measurement range which is what layman use in troubleshooting.

Conversely, zero ohms is also un-achievable in reality.  Though experiments in superconductivity where temps approach absolute zero degrees get pretty close.  Regardless, a meter will give you a practical indication of resistances very near zero.  Be aware even the wire probes and meter circuitry have resistance, which often approach what the stator winds have inherently.  Your meter wil inform you of it's capablity by selecting the lowest ohms scale, placing the probe tips together, and displaying a value.  This value must be subtracted from any circuit ohms measurement you make.

Back to your bike.
The 650's spinning rotor windings have insulation on the individual wires.  The centrifugal stress and heat can deform the insulation allowing the winding wire to short to each other.  This lowers the resistance progressively as more and more windings short together.  The lower the resistance gets, the more current it will demand when presented with a voltage.  The supplied voltage comes from the voltage regulator, which normally controls the strength of the rotor's magnetic field by varying the voltage that exists in the system wiring (the black wires)  The vreg monitors the Bike's Black wires to determine how much to feed the rotor.  The lower the black wire voltage level, the more voltage it will pass on to the rotor.
The stock voltage regulator has no internal protection from a rotor winding short out, and the current demands will damage its capability.

I recommend you get familiar with your meter, then find the black and white wires that lead into the alternator from the Reg/Rect. (Do refer to the wire diagram for your bike.)  This resistance should never be less than 4.5Ω, or more than 7Ω.  (Don't forget to subtract the meter's own resistance from the measurements you make.)

Ohm's law I=E/R shows that with a 12V source, it will take 0.4 Ohms (Ω) to demand 30 amps through your inline fuse.  Your depicted direct link terminal bridge in place of a proper fuse, could easily lead to the bikes wiring acting as a fusible link, as in melting insulation, as well as the wire cores itself.  This is what the original fuse is trying to protect.  It's quite lame and irresponsible to replace a blown fuse with a solid metal bridge device.

So here is the scenario you might be facing.
The rotor windings short demanding excessive current and before the rectifier frys itself to oblivion, it takes out the main fuse.
The ignorant PO replaces the fuse with a metal bridge to see what happens, and the connecting wires and connectors all have an opportunity to melt wherever the weakest link is located in the current path loop.

Step one:  Verify your rotor resistance is within resistance limits
Step two: get a fuse installed to protect the circuitry.  Fuses are cheaper and faster to replace than wiring components.

If you still have fuses blowing, jumper across the fuse terminals with an incandescent lamp (eg., turn signal bulb), for troubleshooting purposes.  The lamp will limit the current flow and enable active circuit probing to determine where the big current suck is located.

Alternately, you can pull or insert the four subcircuit fuses you have sequentially to isolate the branch that has the biggest current suck.  However, be aware that the charging system has no fuse for that circuit, beside the main 30A device.


Report your rotor measurements and fuse correction efforts for a next step.  And charge your battery before doing any charging system checks.  Your charging system is there to maintain the battery, not charge up a dead one.  (It can, but it will take 10 hours or more to do so with the bike in cruise.)  Besides, voltage checks are made with a fully charged battery to see if the charging system can maintain it.  A low battery will bias all voltage reading into unknown, unpredictable levels.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2018, 12:18:26 pm »
Take what TT said as gospel, period.
If the PO hacked up your electrical harness like he did that fuse you may want to buy a new one because who knows where you might have shorts with that stupid link he put on. They have new ones at partsnmore for about a Benny and change.
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Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2018, 12:27:40 pm »
Great description, TT! If I may add the connectors can take out the stator coil due to excessive heat from nowhere to shunt it if there is too much corrosion, the amperage is created by stator and rotor, and then resistance in the spade connectors overheats and burns out the stator, and possibly the field coil too. My 1982 XZ550 Vision, and my 1981 XV920RH both had the same stator, and connectors, and they both were prone to frying the stator if the connectors weren't serviced and cleaned, and dielectric grease added. (can't fry the rotor on them, as it is a magnet) :)
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2018, 01:35:10 pm »
Wow, thank you so much. I've got some reading to do. will report back...
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2018, 02:04:07 pm »
Great description, TT! If I may add the connectors can take out the stator coil due to excessive heat from nowhere to shunt it if there is too much corrosion, the amperage is created by stator and rotor, and then resistance in the spade connectors overheats and burns out the stator, and possibly the field coil too. My 1982 XZ550 Vision, and my 1981 XV920RH both had the same stator, and connectors, and they both were prone to frying the stator if the connectors weren't serviced and cleaned, and dielectric grease added. (can't fry the rotor on them, as it is a magnet) :)
Charlie

I guess I have to at least partially disagree.  I understand how PM alternators function. I am not familiar with the implementations to which you refer.
While there is no doubt corroded connectors are not a good thing and should be avoided.  Their added resistance reduces current flow capability.  You need both current and voltage to generate heat in a given resistance.  More corrosion yields more resistance and voltage drop in that connection.  Current flow with voltage differential creates heat at the connector.
If the connectors are heating, it is only conducted heat that can effect the stator windings, so they would have to be very short leads to get that heat into the stator windings.  I don't think those yellow wires are short enough on the SOHC4 to conduct enough heat to do that, as that heat would dissipate/radiate before reaching the windings proper.

This SOHC4 stator /field design is self limiting.  It relies on flux crossings to develop a voltage in the stator windings, agitating the electrons.  If you try and draw the electrons out faster than they can build, the voltage diminishes, decreasing the power out and any heat that would go with that power.  You can actually short these yellow wires out directly.  The electrons then vacate the windings so fast, that the voltage can't develop high enough to create significant power.  P=IE.  Can't get power/heat without both I and E.

For the SOHC4 stator, physical damage can hurt it.  Electrically, a shorted rectifier could bring battery power into the stator windings and cause damage from overheat.  Same issue as connecting a battery backwards, as this would essentially make the rectifier look like a short.  Then it becomes a race between the battery to alternator wiring, and the alternator windings themselves to see which will become the weakest link and part/break the current path. Apart from the 650, the rest of the SOHC4 examples do not have fuses between the battery and charging system.

The stator is where the power is made/ amplified.  The rotor or field is driven only by the black wire/ battery voltage level.  The rotor steals power from the black wire to self excite.  Only when the rotor is making a magnetic field and the rotor is spinning can power be developed in the stator.  But, it can never develop more wattage or heat than it's design limits.
The 650 is the only SOHC4 with a spinning field coil.  The rest use a stationary field coil and a spinning magnetized metal core to vary the flux crossings.
The field coils are electrically driven by the regulator.  Heat there is a result of regulator aggressiveness, and the resistance of the field windings.   A spinning field rotor has the added issue of centrifugal force and crankshaft vibration trying to dislodge the winding's wire insulation.

The observation that connector corrosion somehow leads to stator failure in PM alternators, likely has more to do with its regulation technique, which is different that what the SOHC4 uses, as well as physical arrangements.

I've never verified an actual stator "burn out" on the SOHC4, without physical abuse also being present.  However, it is man's creation.  So, it has to have a failure rate of some sort.  But, I think that it would be pretty close to a lump of metal.

...if any of that helps...

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2018, 02:11:27 pm »
Yeah, they are constructed differently, the connectors I have seen, when they get too corroded to pass current, get hot, melt, and then fry the stator. The first clue id the melted plastic connector. A lot of people just cut off the connectors on both ends, and solder the wires together. This gives a good connection to begin with and alleviates the problem on the 'new' stator and VRR. But if you solder connections, the copper wire on each side of the solder joint will eventually fail too, from metal fatigue. I really don't prefer to solder connections, when I can crimp on factory type spades or bullet connectors, and use new nylon or plastic connector blocks. An addition of dielectric grease would alleviate all that problem to begin with, and I really encourage the use of it on all electrical connectors. TT, you are a wealth of knowledge on these old SOHC bikes, and I enjoy your diatribes upon the subjects. :)
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline MEHall

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 04:23:48 pm »
A tip is to replace that fusebox/starter relay, i know for a fact that you can use a starter relay with 30 amp fuse that is used on newer Gold wings. If you get the new relay with fuse it uses the  modern flat pin fuse.  ;)








 8)

Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2018, 04:25:22 pm »
A tip is to replace that fusebox/starter relay, i know for a fact that you can use a starter relay with 30 amp fuse that is used on newer Gold wings. If you get the new relay with fuse it uses the  modern flat pin fuse.  ;)

+1
If you do this, get one of the 30amp circuit breakers, they make them thin enough now to fit into the holders without clearance issues.
Charlie








 8)
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline strynboen

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2018, 01:20:25 am »
cbx rotors like to eat the brusches...so to get them hold long .i put it in the lathe and make the konnektor copper  as nice as possibel..think the brushes and rotor is the same as 650
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2018, 03:21:16 pm »
Great description, TT! If I may add the connectors can take out the stator coil due to excessive heat from nowhere to shunt it if there is too much corrosion, the amperage is created by stator and rotor, and then resistance in the spade connectors overheats and burns out the stator, and possibly the field coil too. My 1982 XZ550 Vision, and my 1981 XV920RH both had the same stator, and connectors, and they both were prone to frying the stator if the connectors weren't serviced and cleaned, and dielectric grease added. (can't fry the rotor on them, as it is a magnet) :)
Charlie

I guess I have to at least partially disagree.  I understand how PM alternators function. I am not familiar with the implementations to which you refer.
While there is no doubt corroded connectors are not a good thing and should be avoided.  Their added resistance reduces current flow capability.  You need both current and voltage to generate heat in a given resistance.  More corrosion yields more resistance and voltage drop in that connection.  Current flow with voltage differential creates heat at the connector.
If the connectors are heating, it is only conducted heat that can effect the stator windings, so they would have to be very short leads to get that heat into the stator windings.  I don't think those yellow wires are short enough on the SOHC4 to conduct enough heat to do that, as that heat would dissipate/radiate before reaching the windings proper.

This SOHC4 stator /field design is self limiting.  It relies on flux crossings to develop a voltage in the stator windings, agitating the electrons.  If you try and draw the electrons out faster than they can build, the voltage diminishes, decreasing the power out and any heat that would go with that power.  You can actually short these yellow wires out directly.  The electrons then vacate the windings so fast, that the voltage can't develop high enough to create significant power.  P=IE.  Can't get power/heat without both I and E.

For the SOHC4 stator, physical damage can hurt it.  Electrically, a shorted rectifier could bring battery power into the stator windings and cause damage from overheat.  Same issue as connecting a battery backwards, as this would essentially make the rectifier look like a short.  Then it becomes a race between the battery to alternator wiring, and the alternator windings themselves to see which will become the weakest link and part/break the current path. Apart from the 650, the rest of the SOHC4 examples do not have fuses between the battery and charging system.

The stator is where the power is made/ amplified.  The rotor or field is driven only by the black wire/ battery voltage level.  The rotor steals power from the black wire to self excite.  Only when the rotor is making a magnetic field and the rotor is spinning can power be developed in the stator.  But, it can never develop more wattage or heat than it's design limits.
The 650 is the only SOHC4 with a spinning field coil.  The rest use a stationary field coil and a spinning magnetized metal core to vary the flux crossings.
The field coils are electrically driven by the regulator.  Heat there is a result of regulator aggressiveness, and the resistance of the field windings.   A spinning field rotor has the added issue of centrifugal force and crankshaft vibration trying to dislodge the winding's wire insulation.

The observation that connector corrosion somehow leads to stator failure in PM alternators, likely has more to do with its regulation technique, which is different that what the SOHC4 uses, as well as physical arrangements.

I've never verified an actual stator "burn out" on the SOHC4, without physical abuse also being present.  However, it is man's creation.  So, it has to have a failure rate of some sort.  But, I think that it would be pretty close to a lump of metal.

...if any of that helps...

Cheers,

oh you know, a lightbulb just went up over my head. Happens once in a while ;). Since I'm getting ohms readings from other devices and both rotor and stator but only a touch over 0 AND as I think I've mentioned my ohms readings for the rectifier were all consistently low, at the bottom of a group of ranges around <1ohm to around 60ohms, we might postulate that indeed they are showing their proper ohms of I think around 4 but as all my readings on the rectifier were all actually .1 of the top of the range the book calls for(ie book calls for .6 to 60, meter gives 6,  20, id get 2) that should mean for the stator and rotor calling for 4 I should get... less than an ohm as I'm getting! Right? So no need to replace these parts hopefully. Okay, I'm still studying this stuff and I still have to do what you suggested last...
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2018, 03:26:43 pm »
OMG, guess what I just found on the side of my multimeter... an ohms adjustment dial.... it's all coming together....
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2018, 03:32:38 pm »
I think you need to get a reliable test multimeter, to eliminate the guessing/interpolation/projecting.

Even the ones Harbor Freight gives away are suitable for meaningful tests.

Unless you can check the calibration of your present meter.  ...Like with resistors purchased and an electronic supply store.
Buy a 5Ω resistor and see what your meter thinks it is.  If you can verify a 5Ω reading with a known resistor, you can test for a 5Ω unknown part.

When payday comes around, do you just except whatever is in the envelope without opening it?  Or, do you check the amount to see if it is correct?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2018, 01:18:58 pm »
Would this do?:

Square D   Homeline 30 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker
https://homedepot.app.link/dfiR53FgaK
SKU# 202353319


cheap but bulky. Or should I check radio shack, tho I know whatever they have they'll charge a finger or two.

Otherwise I can use a bulb temporarily but I kinda like the idea of a permanent circuit breaker

and is one of these:

Leviton   Outlet-to-Socket Light Plug, White
https://homedepot.app.link/e4UK2p0gaK
SKU# 100170446



the best way to hook up a bulb?

And if I use a bulb(30amp), do I disregard anything under full brightness? Or should I get something a bit higher than 30amp so I know if it's close to full illumination I've got a problem. sorry for all the questions but I'm pretty dumb with this stuff and when I try to br smart on my own things break lol. thanks for all your help. really
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 04:11:52 pm by juntjoo »
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650..

1982 Honda Nighthawk...

I HAVE A 1982 HONDA NIGHTHAWK FFS! j/k. It's my only bike, my first and last.

Offline Yamahawk

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Re: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 03:02:56 pm »
Would this do?:

NO

Square D   Homeline 30 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker
https://homedepot.app.link/dfiR53FgaK
SKU# 202353319


cheap but bulky. Or should I check radio shack, tho I know whatever they have they'll charge a finger or two.

Otherwise I can use a bulb temporarily but I kinda like the idea of a permanent circuit breaker

and is one of these:

Square D   Homeline 30 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker
https://homedepot.app.link/dfiR53FgaK
SKU# 202353319

NO

the best way to hook up a bulb?

And if I use a bulb(30amp), do I disregard anything under full brightness? Or should I get something a bit higher than 30amp so I know if it's close to full illumination I've got a problem. sorry for all the questions but I'm pretty dumb with this stuff and when I try to br smart on my own things break lol. thanks for all your help. really

If you get the Gold Wing one listed in a previous reply to you, please look at the following eBay link for the circuit breaker that will fit for blade fuse replacement.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Circuit-Breaker-Blade-Fuse-28V-DC-Resettable-5-30A-Marine-Rally-Automotive/322966055040?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=512107290490&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Use THAT circuit breaker, to replace the blade fuse in the GOLD WING fusebox/starter relay. Like the following one, and just replace the FUSE in it with the CIRCUIT BREAKER.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Relay-Solenoid-For-HONDA-1980-1983-GL1100-GOLD-WING-INTERSTATE-ASPENCADE/132144658209?epid=1391143332&hash=item1ec46f7721:g:VcsAAOSwSlBY3f8P&vxp=mtr

I see you found the calibration dial on your analog multimeter - to use it, place your meter dial on the OHM range you want to measure- hold the two probes together to get the needle to move towards zero- use the calibration dial to zero the needle on your meter, and it is ready to measure ohms accurately. Then a direct short will read zero on your meter, and any ohms of resistance will be able to be read.
Charlie
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 03:07:50 pm by Yamahawk »
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?