Topic: lots of electrical problems. not sure where to start

[TwoTired]

If he wants to retrofit a circuit breaker, I'd likely suggest this one:
https://powerwerx.com/resettable-atc-blade-circuit-breakers?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzr3QlPOG2QIVkbfACh3FMw4IEAQYDCABEgIHzPD_BwE

What I would do is measure the ohm load from the fuse position, and if too low to allow a 30 amp fuse to survive, drop off the subfuse branches one by one, to isolate the branch that makes the fuse blow (brings the ohms too low).   However, if the ohms can't be brought down with subpanel fuse removal, then that only leaves the charging system as the big current sink.  This, of course, relies on a decent, trustworthy ohmmeter.

An alternative, is to jumper an incandescent lamp in place of the fuse.  It will limit the current flow and light brightly in shorted circuits or loads that have very low resistance.  The less resistive load (higher measured values), the dimmer the lamp.  It's not very accurate.  But, it can be of some help.

After the bike's electrical load is brought within acceptable levels, the main fuse can be reinstalled without worry, or have a circuit breaker alteration installed in its place.

However, if you want a circuit breaker as a test device, just about any 30A rated breaker will suffice.  But, until you locate and remove the high current draw component, it is just going to trip and deactivate the circuit, pretty much eliminating active probing techniques.

Cheers,

[Yamahawk]

If he wants to retrofit a circuit breaker, I'd likely suggest this one:
https://powerwerx.com/resettable-atc-blade-circuit-breakers?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzr3QlPOG2QIVkbfACh3FMw4IEAQYDCABEgIHzPD_BwE

What I would do is measure the ohm load from the fuse position, and if too low to allow a 30 amp fuse to survive, drop off the subfuse branches one by one, to isolate the branch that makes the fuse blow (brings the ohms too low).   However, if the ohms can't be brought down with subpanel fuse removal, then that only leaves the charging system as the big current sink.  This, of course, relies on a decent, trustworthy ohmmeter.

An alternative, is to jumper an incandescent lamp in place of the fuse.  It will limit the current flow and light brightly in shorted circuits or loads that have very low resistance.  The less resistive load (higher measured values), the dimmer the lamp.  It's not very accurate.  But, it can be of some help.

After the bike's electrical load is brought within acceptable levels, the main fuse can be reinstalled without worry, or have a circuit breaker alteration installed in its place.

However, if you want a circuit breaker as a test device, just about any 30A rated breaker will suffice.  But, until you locate and remove the high current draw component, it is just going to trip and deactivate the circuit, pretty much eliminating active probing techniques.

Cheers,

Gee, Lloyd, That's exactly the kind of ATC circuit breaker I suggested he use, along with the OEM Honda GL1100 Gold Wing Main fuse holder/solenoid/4 pin harness connector. Glad we are in agreement, although I can see you are an amazing fellow, I am sure you will find something to nitpick about THAT. 
The incandescent lamp has also been suggested... glad you agree on that too.
Charlie

[strynboen]

my test lamp is bullet prof.

.easy to make of a old car bulb.
.its just hard to solder the vires on and put krokodill/aligator clips on ..there is a kind of stainles stell or crome on the terminals on the h4 bulbs..så almost not possibel to solder..but the 45/55 watt is a fine indikator..and can test veak batteries too and veak konnektors,,vill burn aut..think it pulls abaut 6 amps at 12 volt=55watt..

[Yamahawk]

my test lamp is bullet prof.

.easy to make of a old car bulb.
.its just hard to solder the vires on and put krokodill/aligator clips on ..there is a kind of stainles stell or crome on the terminals on the h4 bulbs..så almost not possibel to solder..but the 45/55 watt is a fine indikator..and can test veak batteries too and veak konnektors,,vill burn aut..think it pulls abaut 6 amps at 12 volt=55watt..

Cool! I will have to remember that trick! Thanks, strynboen
Charlie

[TwoTired]

Gee, Lloyd, That's exactly the kind of ATC circuit breaker I suggested he use, along with the OEM Honda GL1100 Gold Wing Main fuse holder/solenoid/4 pin harness connector. Glad we are in agreement, although I can see you are an amazing fellow, I am sure you will find something to nitpick about THAT. 

I'd actually prefer to use the original type fuse, after solving the root overcurrent draw.  I believe it most uncommon and unusual for that 30 A fuse to blow in normal operation. But, it seems you'd prefer to read what you want, and favor making unnecessary mods.  Not a rare practice on this forum, actually.  You fit right in.

Will you finally admit to the voltage rating of a fuse/circuit breaker to be irrelevant to it's current limiting capability?  That is NOT nitpicking.  It is proper understanding of the components involved, rather than distributing misinformation/misconceptions about circuit breaker wattage.  You're welcome for the education.  Too, bad about having to force it upon you.

The incandescent lamp has also been suggested... glad you agree on that too.

Not that you noticed...  But, I did mention this in reply #11 of this thread.  But, the idea/practice of using the bulb has been bouncing around this forum for years.   How long you been here?  3 months?  Welcome to the forum.

We agree on a lot of things, Charlie.  And, I think you are quite capable.  Neither of us have all the answers.  I like to think I'm still learning, even though I have collected (and forgotten) a lot so far.

Enjoy the forum...

Cheers,

[Yamahawk]

Thanks, Lloyd! I have learned a lot about SOHC bikes here, and since this is my first one, I am thirsty for knowledge... but it isn't my first bike, either. That was a 1967 Norton Atlas 750, and wow, was it a learning experience... that was in 1979. I'm going to try the circuit breakers (ATC) in the updated fuse box I wired for the stock connector, and see how they work. You never know, if they don't perform up to expectations, I may keep them as spares, and revert to Fuses. My bike was rewired by the previous owner, and he neglected to put ANY fuses in his makeshift harness... I gutted it, and re-used a 1974-ish harness I got in a bin of parts for $30. The bin had the battery box, starter safety switch, fuse holder, and 2 regulators and rectifiers... one of the regulators was an early one, with the caged diodes. The other was a heatsink one.Anyway, I am enjoying this forum very much, I don't have all the answers either, and I do appreciate your knowledge.
Charlie

[juntjoo]

did I say something wrong? Can I get anyone a beer?  Hey, got a new meter and it's consistent with my little one, and makes an alarming noise of disapproval when I connect it to the rotor and stator, so I'll pop in a fuse or breaker whatever but how do you eliminate the rotor? Just take it off? Probably dumb Q but just wanna make sure you run the engine like that or that there isn't another easier way to remove it from the circuit

[Yamahawk]

Nope! You are fine brother! And a beer sounds good lol... But before you perform surgery on your bike, get the electrical components up to snuff. Get rid of that U terminal for a fuse lol...The Nighthawk 650's rotor is kinda like my RD350, and has brushes on the rotor rings. Check your shop manual and follow all the instructions for testing before removing anything.
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

Your rotor looks like this, and has carbon brushes that feed the electric to it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Honda-CB650-CB-650-SC-Nighthawk-Charging-Rotor-Magneto/382338595651?hash=item590527fb43:g:xHwAAOSwL81aR8h4&vxp=mtr

Charlie

[TwoTired]

If your rotor (Black & white wires) are reading below 4 Ω, you need a new rotor.  A bad rotor can destroy the vreg, too.  But, can't give that part a good test until the rotor is known good.

Cheers,

[juntjoo]

yes, both rotor and stator are giving me no resistance with both meters. I just put in one of those blade fuse holders and got some glowing fuses and a circuit breaker but of the wrong size. will get it tomorrow and I'm guessing it will glow or trip, depending on what I put in there.

okay, I didn't realize the black and white went to the rotor through the brushes, so I can eliminate both stator and rotor with the one 'alternator' plug duh. If it doesn't trip then, then I know I just need to replace alternator. If not, well then it gets interesting...

thanks!

[TwoTired]

"No resistance" is stating you measured infinity resistance, which is an open circuit.  This is exactly the opposite meaning of Zero resistance which is a direct short.  Infinity Ω (ohms) indicates your brushes may have failed, Wires or connectors, maybe.

I'll warn that if you don't learn to be precise with electrical measurements you are guaranteed to fail at repairs and electrical understanding.

Not hard to believe the rotor is near zero resistance and in need of replacement.  Common issue with the 650.  I have a hard time believing the stator is bad.  Did you find axe attack marks?  Are you confident you can accurately measure 0.35 Ω ?  This is difficult to measure with ordinary meters.

I will cost you extra money if you measure good parts incorrectly and replace them in error.

Cheers,

[juntjoo]

"No resistance" is stating you measured infinity resistance, which is an open circuit.  This is exactly the opposite meaning of Zero resistance which is a direct short.  Infinity Ω (ohms) indicates your brushes may have failed, Wires or connectors, maybe.

I'll warn that if you don't learn to be precise with electrical measurements you are guaranteed to fail at repairs and electrical understanding.

Not hard to believe the rotor is near zero resistance and in need of replacement.  Common issue with the 650.  I have a hard time believing the stator is bad.  Did you find axe attack marks?  Are you confident you can accurately measure 0.35 Ω ?  This is difficult to measure with ordinary meters.

I will cost you extra money if you measure good parts incorrectly and replace them in error.

Cheers,

thanks

I thought infinity was infinite resistance. To the left on the scale, and to the right less resistance or... infinite continuity you say? geez. You know how many times I've looked this stuff up? Oh, and another dumb mistake I made is thinking I was reading  in the tens, but it was the thousands and neither of my meters, old little one and new are suitable for such tiny measurements! crap! or as Britney spears said oops I did it again. Let me take a breath...

[juntjoo]

okay. my analog meter's lowest mark is 200 ohms, so forget that, and my new digital one actually can go down to an ohm and I got it to hold at 16 ohms for the stator and the rotor would fluctuate around 10 for two combinations of the yellows except the middle and the one under the white settled at 5ohms. Sounds good right!? we'll see...

[TwoTired]

okay. my analog meter's lowest mark is 200 ohms, so forget that, and my new digital one actually can go down to an ohm and I got it to hold at 16 ohms for the stator and the rotor would fluctuate around 10 for two combinations of the yellows except the middle and the one under the white settled at 5ohms. Sounds good right!? we'll see...

Geez, you're all over the place.

Yellows are stator outputs, not rotor inputs.  Rotor inputs are White and black. These go through the slip ring brushes.
 Keep going like this and you'll need a fan to clear the smoke away.  And a fatter wallet to thin down.

We need some certainty, here.  And, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy with your reports.
These low ohms measurements need a proper technique.  Probably forget your analog meter for this.  It needs to have a 20 ohm scale to be useful.

Did you ever get a 5 ohm resistor to measure and check meter calibration?  A 1.0 ohm would be helpful, too.

What is the scale setting on your digital?  Your new meter should have documentation that tells an error percentage.  Consider that a 200 ohm scale setting with an error percentage of 1 percent, means your reading is accurate to + or minus 2 ohms. (usually plus one digit on the display) There is no zeroing function, either.  If you place the probe tips together, isn't there a reading on the scale?  That reading has to be mathematically subtracted from any actual measurement you take.

Still confident of your reported 5 ohm measurement?

Does your meter have a diode measurement setting?

What is the make and model of your new meter?

Cheers,

[juntjoo]

okay. my analog meter's lowest mark is 200 ohms, so forget that, and my new digital one actually can go down to an ohm and I got it to hold at 16 ohms for the stator and the rotor would fluctuate around 10 for two combinations of the yellows except the middle and the one under the white settled at 5ohms. Sounds good right!? we'll see...

Geez, you're all over the place.

Yellows are stator outputs, not rotor inputs.  Rotor inputs are White and black. These go through the slip ring brushes.
 Keep going like this and you'll need a fan to clear the smoke away.  And a fatter wallet to thin down.

We need some certainty, here.  And, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy with your reports.
These low ohms measurements need a proper technique.  Probably forget your analog meter for this.  It needs to have a 20 ohm scale to be useful.

Did you ever get a 5 ohm resistor to measure and check meter calibration?  A 1.0 ohm would be helpful, too.

What is the scale setting on your digital?  Your new meter should have documentation that tells an error percentage.  Consider that a 200 ohm scale setting with an error percentage of 1 percent, means your reading is accurate to + or minus 2 ohms. (usually plus one digit on the display) There is no zeroing function, either.  If you place the probe tips together, isn't there a reading on the scale?  That reading has to be mathematically subtracted from any actual measurement you take.

Still confident of your reported 5 ohm measurement?

Does your meter have a diode measurement setting?

What is the make and model of your new meter?

Cheers,

The yellows test was by the book, Clymer. I don't guess at EVERYTHING I do. Just about half. And yes, 8% and using the 6k scale. Here it is:

FRiEQ Multimeter - Digital Multimeter LED Display Screen Provides Accurate, Reliable Results - Clamp Multimeter with Back-Lighted Key - Completely Safe and Easy to Use, Durable Design https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XS7PYCN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_T8LDAbWF9AHJD

I like it. It was the cheapest/best ratings one I found. Shh, that's my secret technique. But now that I know a little better, thanks, I should have shopped by some particulars like error % and range. But as I said I didn't even know I was reading thousands of ohms on my analog. So I'm guessing this means components who's jobs it is to deliver current don't operate with too much resistance like alternators and most other applications are in the thousands and up that makes my little analog a trusty household tool right? Trying to make sure all this pain amounts to something.

Edit: oh I just read you said 20ohm scale. Yeah, that would be better than 6k. Darnet. I like having two of something only when they have distinct purposes. Well, imcrements of an ohm it cam handle with 8% error of 6k? That's huge. No... you explain pls

edit: no, .8 and "+3 word"(mean anything?)  .... I think that's 4.8 ohms. kinda a lot

[juntjoo]

I should've went with this one with a 200ohm scale

Etekcity MSR-C600 Digital Clamp Meter Multimeters , Auto-Ranging Multimeter AC/DC voltmeter with Voltage, AC Current, Amp, Volt, Ohm, Diode and Resistance Test Tester https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NWGZ4XC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_SnMDAbRTNAEZ5

I saw it at first before knowing better and thought whatever special feature(nice small ohm scale maybe?) it would have costing an extra $5 couldn't be anything I'd NEED. 

[juntjoo]

I still have all the packaging. I think Amazon is good with returns...

[TwoTired]

I can't find the specifications/accuracy figures for either of those meters on line.
The second one is auto ranging, meaning it selects a scale for appropriate display.  Still, somewhere the accuracy specs exist.  But, maybe only with the owner's manual, which Amazon doesn't display.

I think they are selling based on pictures rather than capabilities, allowing the buyer to "assume" it is what they need.

The 20 ohm scale recommendation was primarily for an analog meter.

For comparison purposes, look at the PDF manual for the Fluke 87. Page 46
http://www.transcat.com/media/pdf/80vUserManual.pdf
There you will see the accuracy specs.    The resolution is 0.1Ω, the accuracy is ± (0.2 % + 2).  That's of the 600 Ω scale.  It could display an inaccuracy of 1.2Ω depending on specific example, environmental temperature, and calibration refinement.

It is certainly close enough for measuring the rotor.  The stator measurement which is expected to be 0.35Ω can only give you a pretty good approximation of actual resistance.  Still useful.  Just has to give SOME resistance indication between the yellows, and infinity resistance between any yellow and the engine case.  None of the meters are ever absolute, regardless of what the "digital" description often infers.

Cheers,

[juntjoo]

I can't find the specifications/accuracy figures for either of those meters on line.
The second one is auto ranging, meaning it selects a scale for appropriate display.  Still, somewhere the accuracy specs exist.  But, maybe only with the owner's manual, which Amazon doesn't display.

I think they are selling based on pictures rather than capabilities, allowing the buyer to "assume" it is what they need.

The 20 ohm scale recommendation was primarily for an analog meter.

For comparison purposes, look at the PDF manual for the Fluke 87. Page 46
http://www.transcat.com/media/pdf/80vUserManual.pdf
There you will see the accuracy specs.    The resolution is 0.1Ω, the accuracy is ± (0.2 % + 2).  That's of the 600 Ω scale.  It could display an inaccuracy of 1.2Ω depending on specific example, environmental temperature, and calibration refinement.

It is certainly close enough for measuring the rotor.  The stator measurement which is expected to be 0.35Ω can only give you a pretty good approximation of actual resistance.  Still useful.  Just has to give SOME resistance indication between the yellows, and infinity resistance between any yellow and the engine case.  None of the meters are ever absolute, regardless of what the "digital" description often infers.

Cheers,

thanks a lot! I've learned a lot in the last few days. That fluke is way out of my range, no pun intended, but a 200ohm scale is common. And ill assume as a maximum the error % values will be tolerable. So I'll return my clamp meter and get another. Last thing : you said something about diode Tester. I don't even know what one is. I'll look into it but would you recommend that feature for this bike at least? otherwise just for general automotive electrical? Thanks!

[TwoTired]

Ohm meters inject power from their internal battery into the circuit being tested.  It determines resistance by measuring the power the circuit uses.
Moderen digital meters inject very low voltage for the measurement.  This, so when measuring circuits, it won't activate silicon junctions and alter current flow into alternate pathways.  Aids electronic circuit troubleshooting.

This low voltage works against purposes for checking diode function as they need a certain voltage to become conductive.  So, there is usually a setting on the function knob for diode measurement that employs a higher voltage to test diodes.  It is often illustrated as something like this -<|- .
On this setting, probe polarity allows the diode to turn on with one polarity and block current flow in the opposite polarity.

Cheers,

[juntjoo]

Ohm meters inject power from their internal battery into the circuit being tested.  It determines resistance by measuring the power the circuit uses.
Moderen digital meters inject very low voltage for the measurement.  This, so when measuring circuits, it won't activate silicon junctions and alter current flow into alternate pathways.  Aids electronic circuit troubleshooting.

This low voltage works against purposes for checking diode function as they need a certain voltage to become conductive.  So, there is usually a setting on the function knob for diode measurement that employs a higher voltage to test diodes.  It is often illustrated as something like this -<|- .
On this setting, probe polarity allows the diode to turn on with one polarity and block current flow in the opposite polarity.

Cheers,

thanks. do I need this for many things related to the bike?

[TwoTired]

thanks. do I need this for many things related to the bike?

A diode tester?

Your rectifier has 6 diodes to convert AC to DC power.

Do you want know if your charging system works before or after the battery goes dead?


Maybe I don't understand your question.

 

[Airborne 82nd]

my test lamp is bullet prof.

.easy to make of a old car bulb.
.its just hard to solder the vires on and put krokodill/aligator clips on ..there is a kind of stainles stell or crome on the terminals on the h4 bulbs..så almost not possibel to solder..but the 45/55 watt is a fine indikator..and can test veak batteries too and veak konnektors,,vill burn aut..think it pulls abaut 6 amps at 12 volt=55watt..

http://www.hotrodwires.com/sockets-and-lighting.html
Or just get a socket  out of a junk car headlight taillight what ever

[juntjoo]

thanks. do I need this for many things related to the bike?

A diode tester?

Your rectifier has 6 diodes to convert AC to DC power.

Do you want know if your charging system works before or after the battery goes dead?


Maybe I don't understand your question.

 

no you got it thanks. Okay, so now I'm meter shopping and comparing two models exactly the same but the top one has DC amps, where no other models in the lineup(klein) have that. I thought that was standard. My little $10 analog has DC amps. I must not be understanding something...

edit: yeah, none of Klein's clamp meters except the top one of the series, cl800, reads DC amps. Seems strange to me. I would have thought that would be standard.