Author Topic: Questions on Cam Chain Component Wear ('75 400F)  (Read 876 times)

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Offline Gitano

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Questions on Cam Chain Component Wear ('75 400F)
« on: February 08, 2018, 07:40:52 PM »
In rebuilding my ’75 400F engine, I have some questions about how to determine wear on certain items, and when wear is bad enough that part is required. I have searched for some info here, but am not finding what is needed so I hope some of you can chime in on my questions. Also, I am well aware of the WYIT (While You’re In There) rabbit hole, but I’m trying to keep costs down and prefer not to spend money on parts that could or should last another 30k+ miles. The odometer on this bike shows 26k miles on the engine, and this bike will not be ridden all that hard or be entered into a concours event, I’m just looking for a decent riding machine. So, I have some questions about the cam chain and the tensioning mechanism that I hope some of you can shed some light on. In the end, it’s just a matter of saving at least a couple hundred dollars on new parts if they are not really needed. 

For cam chain wear, many measure cam chain length to assess stretching, so I measured inter-pin distance for 8 links when pushed together and then stretched. I did this while the chain was wedged between two pieces of wood to hold the links steady while I measured. For some accuracy, this was done on two sections of the cam chain. The 8 link measurements when pushed in were 4.675 and 4.667 in (about 119.655 mm), and when stretched out 4.707 and 4.709 in (119.575 mm). From this we can calculate a total chain stretching of 0.2 in (4.83 mm). This doesn't seem like much to me, but I'm no expert. That said, I also haven't found anywhere where there is information on such spec limits. What do you think? What is an acceptable level of stretch, and when would the chain definitely need replacing?



Another measure is sideways flexing of the cam chain. Online one can find pics and videos comparing flex on a worn chain side-by-side with a new one. I haven’t seen specs for this type of measurement, so when is sideways movement too much? I measured the side deflection on my chain at 52.5 mm. Does this have to be replaced? Anyone have numbers on flex with a new cam chain?



On the tension guides, I measured the widths on both the chain slipper and guide, for which specs are available in the shop manual. For the tension slipper, the book spec is a minimum of 3.0 mm. At is thinnest (the middle), I measured 3.64 mm, compared to the ends with a thickness over 5.8 mm. I’m assuming that a new one is uniform in thickness throughout (can someone confirm?), so this piece may be reaching it’s limit and should be replaced. Agreed?



With the cam chain guide, I’m confused by the spec in the book, which is minimum thickness of 5.0 mm. Is this measured at the thinner edges of the guide, or the thicker middle portion that is raised? My measurements were 5.71 mm for the thicker middle section, and 4.23 mm for the thinner sides. Should this be replaced? What are the thickness measurements on a new one?

Finally, A question about the horseshoe cam tensioning lever. There are some photos on this forum showing chain damage to the pivot point, and I have some too as shown here.



Is this amount of damage that bad? What causes this this damage? Is it a cam chain that is not tensioned properly and has too much slack, thus allowing the chain to smack against the lever pivot? The pivot moves readily, so it suspect the previous owner didn’t tension the chain properly. Since this horseshoe lever is a rather expensive part, I’d prefer to not replace it is all that is needed is better attention to tension settings.

So, if I have to replace all these parts, then I have to replace all these parts. If, however, I can save some money and still have a nice runner to have some fun with, that’s good enough for me. What do you all think?



« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 02:40:05 PM by Gitano »

Offline robvangulik

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Re: Questions on Cam Chain Component Wear ('75 400F)
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 11:10:47 AM »
With the chain length you are mixing up mm with inches, on the first pic the length is 127 mm, not 4. something.
But with just 26k miles I wouldn't worry about camchain and tensioner wear, you say the horseshoe moves easily, and thats the most important. Did you ride the bike before dismantling, or are you just being cautious?
When the bike starts rattling and tensioning the camchain doesn't help anymore is soon enough to replace parts!

Offline Tim2005

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Re: Questions on Cam Chain Component Wear ('75 400F)
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 12:02:00 PM »
Briefly:  Chain - replace it. Slipper- are there grooves worn into it? If so replace it. Guide- they don't wear out, but check it for ageing cracking. Horseshoe- if it moves freely then it's aok. Also check the plunger slides freely. If possible put new springs on it, they age and weaken, but I'm not sure if they are available now. Cheers. p.s. check top piston rings for wear carefully too.

Offline Gitano

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Re: Questions on Cam Chain Component Wear ('75 400F)
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 03:14:26 PM »
Rob, thank you for pointing out my mixup on the length units. What a bonehead error on my part! I was thinking that something didn't seem right about the numbers, and I just didn't think about the units. I have modified my original post to correct that and not lead others astray (or a wild goose chase).

So the cam chain length difference is now calculated to be about 4.8 mm (not inches!), and we have a difference of opinion on changing it. So the question now is whether a 5 mm stretch is too much or just normal for a chain in good (but used) condition. With a new chain one needs to adjust the tension after some use, so stretching is to be expected, but is 5 mm normal or excessive?

The slipper has some rather minor wear tracks on it, about 0.1 mm deep in the center of the slipper length, although they do run almost the entire length of the slipper albeit not as deep as you move away from the center as may be expected that this piece is bowed and the center is the main point of contact with the chain. Again, we have a difference of opinion on need for replacement. Does the 0.1 mm depth of the tracks offer any certainty? This is a $50-60 decision.

The guide looks good, with no cracks. Here we have consensus that replacement is not needed (great - a $20-30 savings!).

The horseshoe moves fine, so that slight damage may be due to a loose chain. This is the big one since the cost of a replacement is over $125. So, I'm happy to keep this part!

I've been cautioned by others about the plunger, which seems to be OK in that it was sliding smoothly when loosened. The springs also appear to be strong, so they are likely OK, but I'll search for replacements it they are available an inexpensive. A switch over to the manual cam adjust bolt as found on the 4into1 web site may be a option should this start to act up.

On the piston rings and wear, I have already ordered replacements for them, so these will be new.

I was not able to hear the engine run prior to acquisition. The previous (original) owner is a gear head and quite anal about his bikes and cars, so the bike overall was in great shape (except for the transmission problem - see me other post on missing gear teeth!). He let the bike go due to health problems. That said, I will ask him what he remembers about the running condition when it last ran. It sat for about 5 years, so I hope he remembers how it sounded! I am just being cautious, particularly since this is my first engine rebuild, and don't want to overlook something obvious, but I also don't want to spend money on unnecessary part replacements.

Rob & Tim, many thanks for your input and advice! Any additional comments and thoughts are welcome.

Offline Flyin900

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Re: Questions on Cam Chain Component Wear ('75 400F)
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 04:19:20 PM »
+1 on replacing the tensioner and cam chain especially since you are in there so far at this point. I am just doing a high point restoration on the same bike with the same mileage and the tensioner did have a groove worn into it and was borderline on the factory spec.
IMO for the sake of another $80 - $100. you can replace both the cam chain and tensioner and know they are brand new, especially since you are doing the piston rings. Motor work is something that you can't easily go back into if you discover a problem afterwards.
I bought the aftermarket cam chain $(32.00) from David Silver Spares as the best price I found and used his same aftermarket tensioner $(45.00) too, for well under $100. for the set. DSS if you are not familiar with them they are an excellent resource and sell quality items.
If you don't have a complete engine gasket kit I used an aftermarket one from DSS too at $55.00 complete and have used these guys before with a great price, service and reasonable shipping cost unlike most EBay sellers into another country.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 04:32:29 PM by Flyin900 »
Common sense.....isn't so common!

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1967 CL175K0 - Scrambler #802 engine
1972 CB350F - Candy Bacchus Olive - Super Sport
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