Author Topic: 78 750 seems to still be running lean  (Read 2540 times)

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Offline fredmalito4

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78 750 seems to still be running lean
« on: February 18, 2018, 07:31:59 PM »
 After having been sitting for a long time, I acquired this 78 CB 750. I’ve gone through the carburetors, including new accelerator pump, new pilot jets, cleaning the original 110 main jets, new floats and float valves, new carb boots on both ends,  and all proper adjustments except for final carburetor balancing.

The bike still appears to be running extremely lean. It will start and idle fine on choke and off choke once it is warmed up, but is soon as any throttle is quickly applied it dies.  It can be revved up if you gently open the throttle. It is very slow to wind back down after you rev it up.  The engine gets hot very quickly and sounds like it is starting to ping  even with the fan running in front of it.  Once off idle it will rev to high rpm’s just fine.

Pipes are stock as is the airbox. Air filter in stock. Plugs are stock.  Idle screw are set at 1 1/2 turns. Does anyone have any ideas of what could be going on here before I have to pull these carburetors back out and re-investigate? Thanks!

Fred
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 10:16:30 PM by fredmalito4 »

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 07:35:37 PM »
Check carb boots are sealing. Especially when hot.

Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 08:30:18 PM »
We have; we’ve gone around them with propane and carb cleaner. No luck.

Offline Mr. Mike

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 09:43:04 AM »
Check to see if that throttle linkage tang is pushing down on the accelerator pump rod when you twist the grip, or with air box off, look into the carbs when twisting the throttle and see if the brass stand off’s are shooting a good stream of gas into each carb.
As far as the slow to return to idle, be sure your cables are free of any sharp bends, and linkage is mechanically free and lubed.
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Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 09:47:46 AM »
 The clearances on those tangs, both for the pump and for the stop, are correct and the pump is working. I can confirm that it is squirting fuel through three of the four towers; we had to completely disassemble carburetor number one last night to get it working, and now it’s not working anymore so I’m going to shoot it.

 As for the slow throttle return, I do have a cable problem and will be ordering an original pull cable, but can confirm that the carburetors are snapping shut but the bike does not want to idle back down.

 I am certain that this is not the issue, because you have to have the top covers removed to synchronize the carburetors, but having the top covers off will not make a difference here, correct?

 I pulled number one and number four spark plugs last night and they showed evidence of over fueling. So I’m not certain that this is a lean mixture issue, I just don’t know what the hell the problem is.  I would really like to get this thing running as today’s my son‘s 18th birthday and I wanted to hand it off to him as something for him to ride.



Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 06:29:55 PM »
If it is squirming from the accelerator pump I doubt it is lean. How many turns out do you have the idle mixture screws. It might be loading up at idle then when you give it throttle it dumps it causing the revs. I was having the same problem but I think it is fixed. I reset the screws at 1.75 out. I finally got the accelerator pump working. Did you confirm it was working on and off the bike. It you tighten the screw on the #2 bowl too tight it will mushroom the o-ring and block the flow of gas from the pump

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 06:31:54 PM »
I went back and read you original post. You accelerator pump is not working. Loosen the front screw on the bowl and see what happens

Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 06:38:21 PM »
 It is working on cylinders 2,3 and 4,  and we had it working on cylinder number one after a complete separation and teardown of that carburetor, but now the damn thing stopped working again. So, the pump is working.

I’ve tried this with I don’t mixture screws at 1.25 and 1.5 turns out. You think I might wish to try them a little farther out?

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 06:58:29 PM »
You can try to go out more. Doesn't make a lot of sense because everything is stock correct? You have confirmed the pump is working on the bike hooked up correct.

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 07:01:40 PM »
Also. The squirt should be pretty strong. It should shoot through and out the other side of the carb when removed from bike.

Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 05:16:45 AM »
We found that out much to my son’s surprise, and my ammusement, when they squirted all over him. Good times were had by all.

So, what is a good method for cleaning those towers?

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 05:27:55 AM »
Soak carb slender etc. . I assume all the ball valves are working since you are getting gas to 3 carbs.

Offline Don R

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 09:16:20 AM »
 What brand are the new pilot jets? Is the timing advancer and compression OK?
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Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 09:19:38 AM »
 The pilot jets are OEM from jetsrus, compression is good, and I consider looking at the timing advance myself. That I’m not sure of.  Think that could do it?

Offline Don R

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 09:29:55 AM »
 At idle timing advance shouldn't be an issue unless it's loose and not holding the weights back at low rpm. Just a thought. Someone here had that going on once.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 02:57:13 PM »
It is working on cylinders 2,3 and 4,  and we had it working on cylinder number one after a complete separation and teardown of that carburetor, but now the damn thing stopped working again. So, the pump is working.

I’ve tried this with I don’t mixture screws at 1.25 and 1.5 turns out. You think I might wish to try them a little farther out?

Yes. Go to 1.75 turns. Also: check your spark advance: make dead sure it is NOT advanced more than the "F" marks at idle. You may even wish to retard it slightly to get the throttle response back. The full-advance angle can then be attained again by other methods, but that's a different topic...

The issue here has more to do with fuel QUALITY today: beginning in October of 2016, the fuel-makers (across the country) were forced to change to a different blend, for EPA reasons. As just one testimony as to the effects this has had locally (other than listening to many, many people griping about it on local radio "car talk" shows here), my 750 immediately began 'falling on its face' at throttle-open if I got too aggressive, and when I richened things up enough to stop it altogether, it fouled the plugs in about 15 miles of city riding (it is that far "out-of-whack"). Beginning in January this year, the local (Denver) refinery has altered this somewhat, and the winter riders around here are finding it better, while the MPG on our cars is still almost 20% worse than last summer, locally.

The PD42b carbs (which yours probably has) also have very low float bowls. Their forerunners (PD42a) were identical, except they had 12.5mm depth: yours is 14.0mm. You may wish to try setting it to 12.5mm, if you can: some of the PD42b carbs have plastic float tangs, which the DOT of 1976 edicted be made to "stop owners from tampering" with their carbs...also, the emulsifier holes in the idle jets are undersized on the PD42x carbs, so pull those jets and push something sharp (like a needle) thru those holes and wiggle it, to remove calcification, corrosion, and other stuff that narrows them. Pull these press-in jets straight out with as little wiggle as possible, and tap them back in gently.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 05:35:54 PM »
Hondaman have you ever done any modifications to the accelerator pump?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 08:17:46 PM »
Hondaman have you ever done any modifications to the accelerator pump?

Mostly, after replacing the diaphragm with a new one, I find uneven squirts happening. I usually find the little hoses between the carbs to be either unhappy (i.e., loose from age), weeping slightly, or the wrong kind of hose. Sometimes the act of removing the parts causes a tiny (and I do mean TINY) grit bit to move to the tiny jet tube(s), and then that one barely dribbles when the others squirt.

Not to worry excessively over it, though: more than half of the decently-running 750s with these carbs work fine so long as at least 2 of them still squirt. This usually ends up being 2 and 3, for some reason? Heck, the earlier bikes didn't even HAVE them!

The reason for the squirt is simply because the DOT/EPA required Honda to meet car-emission rules with the 550/750/Goldwing bikes, starting in 1976. To do it, the carbs got leaned out and the cams changed to have 5 degrees later intake valve opening (exhaust timing stayed the same) for more scavenging to occur. This made the bikes cold-blooded, and pushed the RPM power curve upward about 800 RPM overall. Since the emission rules required testing at idle (less than 1000 RPM) and 2500 RPM (typically 55 MPH on an old Detroit V-8 engine of the day), Keihin cleverly changed the needle tapers to be thicker (leaner) until 3000 RPM (1/8 throttle), and added slip-on plastic caps to the idle air screws (and wrote (DO NOT REMOVE CAPS in the Owner's Manuals) to, IMHO, poke fun back at the DOT...but, it made the bikes meet the rules. In the 1977 era, California's CARB bunch decided to join the fray, and Honda had to come out with...your carbs. First it was the PD42a, which mixed more accurately-per-RPM range than than the old roundtops, and the idle jet was first #40, then #38 partway through its tenure: in the PD42b this was changed to #35 on many of the California bikes (#38 on the others) and the floats were lowered to lean out the upper midrange, too. These carbs EAT the exhaust valve guides from lean heating, which makes low compression when cold because of poor exhaust sealing, and causes much shorter engine life on the K7/8 and F2/3 later bikes.

So, all of this known...to improve the PD42b carb performance with today's fuels - if you can get some, change the idle jets upward. If yours has #35, get the #38 (they are actually #37.5, but that's trivia..), if yours are the #38, get the #40 size instead. These are available in used sets of K7 PD42a carbs, if nowhere else (I might have some?). If your floats can be adjusted, make them 1.5mm richer (deeper) than they are now, and then use K7 (PD42a) settings, like 1.5 - 2.0 turns out on the idle air screws. This will stop the cold-bloodedness and make the bike more driveable.

If yours has the #35 pilot (idle) jet, don't jump up to #40 right away (stay with just the #37.5/#38), because the air port to the #35 jet is smaller than the ones for the #37 jet. This was done to let the air screw setting remain the same during this change, so the manuals did not have to be re-printed, and the DOT then get too nosy... ;)  The air screw will not work properly if turned in past 1.0 turn, nor out past 2.5 turns: it just acts rich, in both directions, then. This is because less than 1.0 turns pinches off too much air to let the fuel get pushed up the jet (so it doesn't mix at all, and won't burn) and more than 2.5 turns lets in so much air that it floods the idle area under the slide and makes everything too wet. Both burn poorly, and foul plugs.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 08:28:14 PM »
HondaMan, thank you for that info! I can get the idle jets, but they’re a bit pricy.

 In your opinion, should I keep working on the PD carbs or backtrack to the older style?

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2018, 04:01:10 AM »
Well i had it running wonderfully yesterday. Woke up this morning at 4am to fo to work and it wouldn't start. Finally got it started and it wouldn't idle. Would not run without full choke. Had to turn around and drive the car. I cant understand why it was good and overnight it starts this. I guess i hot juke in the idle jets. Idk

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2018, 02:01:19 PM »
Hondaman which rebuild kit do you recommend. I went ahead and decided to rebuild. Also I have the 35 slow jets and I have been searching for the 38 but I can not find them anywhere. You know where some might be for sell?

Offline Paintedseat

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2018, 04:30:11 PM »
Nevermind I found some at 4into1. I am going with the 38 per your suggestion

Offline fredmalito4

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2018, 04:56:26 PM »
Send me the link?


Offline HondaMan

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Re: 78 750 seems to still be running lean
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2018, 09:17:30 PM »
With the rebuild kits: DON'T use the needle, if the kit has one. Today's needles are even LEANER than the OEM version, which will make the problem worse. These don't wear out: sometimes they get corroded (if REALLY, REALLY dirty for a long time) or bent, but they don't wear.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com