Author Topic: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM  (Read 2904 times)

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Offline Walcu

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Hey guys🤘
I have renovated the CB400 four SuperSport from 77 from really bad condition and everything works well except one little thing. Actually not that little. The battery is not being charged when the motors work. I have already checked:
The resistace of the Field Coil and it is 4.2 Ohm (should be 4.6-5),
The resistance of the stator coil is 0.8 Ohm (should be 0.61-0,69)
The Battery terminal voltage is: 12.00V when engine is off, 12.03 when it is working on 1500RPM and 12.07V-12.11V on higher RPMs, so it is not enough to charge the battery when lights and everything is working.
I checked the rectifier and noticed that one diod is propably dead, so I bought a new Rectifier with Regulator (in one part) and replaced it.
I also checked if there is voltage on the Field Coil and it is similar to my CB550Four so I think OK.
Also checked if there are not any bad connections in Coils for example to the frame, not only with simple electric meter but also with high voltage generator.
What should I check next? Any ideas of what is going on?
Thank You!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2018, 12:40:23 PM »

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bodi

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2018, 05:56:27 PM »
What is a "high voltage generator"?

The main thing is to have a fully charged battery for testing. The 400-4 alternator is marginal... and it takes a good long cruise for it to charge a depleted battery. In city riding, a battery used for electric start will probably never get to "full charge".
Since your battery voltage is rising at higher RPM, maybe it is charging ... as well as it can. A fully charged battery should be 14+V with the engine running over 3000 RPM or so.
It sounds like you have checked over the harness pretty well. The connectors are often a problem, the bullets in the field and stator wires and the spades in the engine connector block. The bullets under the sprocket cover are particularly prone to corrosion and increased resistance.
If you have a decent multimeter with a 10A or higher current scale, you can connect it in series with the smaller wire to the battery positive and see what your actual charge/discharge current is.  If you have charging current at 3000 RPM then that's about all you can hope for. At lower RPM it will be discharging. With a "stock" load  you should have a few amps of charging at cruising RPM. Electronic ignition and/or a higher wattage headlight can really eat up that "extra" though. Forget about heated clothing!

Offline przjohn

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2018, 06:10:26 PM »
Did you replace the points with an electronic ignition like a Dyna? The 400F has an anemic charging system. With the long dwell on some ignitions when using stock coils the bike’s charging system cannot keep up. I had this problem on my 400F restoration and ended up going back to points.
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Offline scottly

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2018, 10:41:13 PM »

I also checked if there is voltage on the Field Coil and it is similar to my CB550Four so I think OK.

The charging system can be divided into two sections, the Input side, consisting of the regulator and field coil, and the output side, consisting of the stator coils and rectifier. Rather than check every single component in a system, I prefer to start in the middle, so I know which way to go in the least number of steps. ;) 
Was this voltage measured at the junction of the white regulator wire and the white field wire? Was it 10 volts or more? If no, check the voltage at the junction of the black regulator wires; this should be within 1V of the battery voltage as measured directly across the terminals. If yes, with the key off, disconnect the white field wire and measure the resistance from the harness side to the battery negative terminal; it should read 4.xx Ohms. If not, the field coil isn't properly grounded. If yes, test the diodes in the rectifier again; the use of a high voltage supply to test the grounds is a very bad idea; these devices are used to detect insulation breakdown and the conductivity of the earth, as in dirt, for ground fields around sensitive equipment.   
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Offline Walcu

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2018, 11:51:10 AM »
Hey   ;D
Thank You all for help. I have checked everything step by step as You advised and what I found is that the new Regulator Rectifier works well only as a Rectifier but Regulator doesnt give a proper voltage on the Field Coil. So I have installed the old original honda Regulator and this new Regulator Rectifier is now connected only as Rectifier. The whole charging system now works, not perfect but works - reaches almost 14V at high RPM. Should be a little bit more but as I mentioned in my first post some of Resistances and other parameters are slightly different from the norm (max. 10-20%), but it is enough for the battery to charge with no problems, so it's OK.
Once again thank You all for such a fast and extensive help!!
Walcu
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Offline DomHonda4004

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 07:47:19 PM »
Hi Guys, this thread seems very relevant to issues I'm also seeing; another question before I wade into similar testing.....does anyone know what AC voltages I should expect from the generator ? Dom

Offline bryanj

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2019, 12:07:52 AM »
Over 20 on each of the 3 pairs
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 12:51:21 PM »
Quote
What is a "high voltage generator"?

I'm thinking it's a megger for winding insulation testing.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 08:14:36 AM by rotortiller »

Offline Tomshep

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2019, 01:37:07 PM »
I wouldn't if I were you. It is likely to damage the diodes in the rectifier. Stick to a multimeter. It will indicate if anything is wrong.

Offline dave500

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Re: [ELECTRIC PROBLEM] CB 400 Four Super Sport 1977 CHARGING PROBLEM
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2019, 01:50:12 AM »
simply disconnect the rectifier.